Jose Caballer is a creative entrepreneur, designer, facilitator, meditation enthusiast.  Jose founded The Groop a digital agency and there he got his “Street MBA” and got to work with diverse creative clients such as Al Gore, Jamie Oliver, Thomas Keller, Alice Waters, corporate clients like Disney and Nike and over 30 startups including MySpace and One Drop. Today he combines his 20 years of design and business experience with his passion for teaching and trains thousands of creative professionals on webinars and in workshops worldwide.

We talked about life, career, and startup with Jose’s unique perspective of design principles, product strategies, and spirituality.

  • The process of reinventing yourself every day
  • ”How much are you willing to surrender providing your gift to people”
  • Jose’s 3-step design process: define the vision, mock it up, share with others
  • The Importance of media diet (and the cost of distraction)
  • How to get more forward momentum (and feedback)
  • How to find your path (hint: your path is right in front of you if you look at the right direction)
  • How to innovate in your future path (by asking the right people)


Quotable Quotes

  • “Allow myself to be in the flux to allow myself to be in the process of invention”
  • “All reality is the subjective experience of the consciousness”
  • “The fundamental piece of the System is to believe; I am a serial experimentalist after that.”
  • “Activate your Idea with your emotions”
  • “You can only mix arts and crafts when you practice them”
  • Mother fucker, I work on 10- to 15-year arcs”
  • “You can go a lot faster if you give up your identities and just experiment”
  • “I didn’t have to change who I am, I just integrated who I become”
  • “Your own transformational journey is the content”

Connect with CK

Jose’s Bio

Jose is a former graphic designer who started teaching online (because Tim Ferris told him in a book.) and started a YouTube channel which is now educating The Futur generations. He then left that and went to Burning Man one too many times. Ended up in NYC training tech nerds at ConsenSys and now he is struggling to figure out how to do his next iteration. In the meantime he is eating his own dog food (tech insiders reference) and hiding in Venice as a neo-hippie wannabe wizard struggling to walk the line between the ethereal and material realms.


Transcript by Otter.AI

Yeah, you know, what came through really strong? Was the question of who am I? Like who are here? That was a question that just came through? And I’m like, No, no, that’s not that’s too big of a question. Move on moving on next. Let’s see. Anyway, it? No, that’s the question.

CK LIN 0:20
I’m really excited to have my friend, Jose Cavalier to be with us today. He is a designer, agency owner, former agency owner, consultant, entrepreneur advisor, and now stepping into being a spiritual teacher.

Ooh, I like that. Yeah.

CK LIN 0:39
So welcome to Josie.

Thank you for having me.

CK LIN 0:42
Thanks for being here. Before we started recording, we actually started talking about reinvention. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your journey of reinventing yourself over and over again.

Yeah, I was thinking about a tattoo. yesterday and I mentioned it to somebody and I said, You know, I want to just have to the word again, on my on my on my forearm, so I can see it every day and say again. And then she said, Why don’t you just do an infinity symbol? Like, oh, that might be a little bit more efficient.

Because I think reinvention is a concept. You’re reinventing yourself every day. Right? When you wake up, or the intention that you have for the day with the things that happened that day. All of those things form your, you know, your life, right? So So this idea of like, reinvention in our society is kind of like a taboo that you need to stick to one thing but, you know, data shows at seven said the average career someone has in the West is seven. It’s one in the US. So for me, like when I when I decided to go from being a designer to be an agency owner, that was what I thought it was the next step, right, like my assumption in my naivete.

And once I grew the agency, I’m like, You know, my assumption is that, you know, there’s this success or something that you get to and when I realized that it’s you have to do it again and again and again. And if I had to choose to do it again, what would I do differently? Right? So that’s when I started shifting away from the agency model and started teaching online, right? Because I knew education was something that was a big thing. And I and I also intuitively felt underneath it all that there was a bigger purpose attached to it. That was part of my own narrative and my own ancestry.

And that, I didn’t know what that was yet. But that is I reinvented myself over and over again. That was six, seven years ago when I was 3938. So that the suspicion at that point was there was something bigger, and it had nothing to do with what kind of company I was going to have. So I allowed myself to go into the state of flux for these last six years that allowed me almost to do continuous reinvention on an ongoing basis, both in the spiritual realm like yoga and meditation and going to India and exploring plant medicine. Like I went full on into that experiment of my life,

CK LIN 3:16
you welcome that.

I welcomed it, I pursued it vigorously. I invested in it financially, you know, I really took it. And then at the same time, I was starting my own company and, you know, teaching online and it was becoming successful. And, you know, it became the school that I started became the future, all very, like awesomely named, because the empowerment of our own community of designers to to be empowered in the realm of their businesses, was somehow for me. Awesome, and that I was helping people like myself, and then as I did it, I began to notice a pattern or a trend that a lot of the people that were transitioning, had an additional desire or need. And it was meaning transitioning from maybe working as a freelancer and wanting to grow an agency. They all shared the same kind of value, or values, that they didn’t want to do it the same way that their parents did it, whether the old system did it. So as I started to track that, in the intentions of, you know, the people around me, I realized that that was my own intention also, that I wanted meaning and purpose for my own career for my own life. And that my ancestry, you know, of who I was born to be, was part of it. I’m Latin from Latin America. I’m the son of a pastor, I grew up in a very Angelica and religious kind of family. So spirituality and God has always been a big part of my life.

And as I explored, like I said, and invested in This other realm of looking at spirituality from both the objective and the subjective, you know, from what a science a, you know, like reading Robert Lance’s book on on bio centricity is the title of the book, where he talks about as a neurobiologist, the research he conducted was in where does phenomena happen, you know, who to who’s reality to who is reality happening. And in his research over and over again, you know, the conclusion at the end was that all reality subjective to the consciousness experiencing it, so, you know, the tree or the whole tree, there’s a whole chapter on the tree falls in the forest, which I love the fact that there’s a whole chapter about that. And he goes through the scenario, he really breaks it down to the science to the like, molecular science of the phenomenon, you know, like, you know, sound is when the impact of the tree falling it creates a vibration Some things can sense that somethings can’t.

So, snail in the forest experiencing that is experiencing a totally different event than you would be if you were there. Everything is different. Yeah. So so he concludes the book with basically like, at the end, the only explanation to anything beyond this is, you know, spirituality is a spiritual, the same conclusion that Einstein and the same conclusion that Tesla the same conclusion that most scientists who know and understand the code, they all know that at the end, the rest is you can only explain it in one way. And it’s no explanation ultimately, so you have to feel it. Anyway. I don’t know what the heck that thread was there.

Yeah, the reinvention is a continual process of redesigning and defining, prototyping and saying out loud, your reality. and over again. So for me to end that reinvention kind of thing, I’m, again in the cycle of reinvention, but now in a very conscious state, not just because of hape is as what it’s called.

I’m in a very conscious and present state of knowing that it’s not about creating my next big thing. It’s really about who am I, in that, you know, my own healing my own letting go my own completion, my own courage, you know, you become you become aware and clear that you create everything around you. A lot of people think that the external is what does it that you know, that person that’s going to give me that deal or, you know, that whatever work that I need to do, all those things are part of it. But ultimately, our primary responsibility is to heal ourselves and develop ourselves. If that makes any sense.

CK LIN 7:59
Yeah, it does. Let me share my personal experience. When I first started this whole journey, I wanted to go on this success path, right? becoming an engineer and becoming a PhD and then becoming a director for the University of California system, then becoming an entrepreneur and then there’s some ideas that I have about arrival. When I when I get there, then then I have arrived and life is better than I will be all set then.

And the more work that I do for myself, the more I realize the success really is the progress, the growth that I allow myself to be in the journey. There is no arrival because we all know I mean, for me, the arrival is the time that I die, and no longer I cease to exist and that that ultimately is the final arrival.

It’s beautiful. And that we’re going to go back to source and we’re going to experience absolute truth again, the Alpha and the Omega then. So in the meantime, what I ought to focus on is the effort that I put in is the who I know myself to be is what I discover about myself in the process. So then, knowing that then I just stopped Give me the fuck about what what other people think and what Yeah, arriving what’s going to look like right success and it’s been great. It’s been a great journey.

Yeah, I watched you from afar and you know, I gotta say, kudos on taking it.

CK LIN 9:48
So let me ask you this, because for some people who are listening to this: How did you find the courage to not stick to the path to the template, least these resistant path,

you know, I’m going to be really honest in that I’ve never really shared this with anybody. And it has both psychological and spiritual connotations to it. My therapist in New York kind of told me that, you know, for people that lose a parent early on, they don’t believe that they themselves are going to last that long. So I lost my mom when I was 33 when she was 33, I was 12.

And so in my little brain, you know, I was in this mad dash for cash because I knew that I wouldn’t live longer than 33 you know what I mean? Or that’s longer than when I hit my when I was towards the end of my 30s I was like, wait a minute, shit, I’m still here. What’s going on? So that mortality and that like trauma based obviously, programming that I had, like, this is it motherfuckers. We gotta do something about something, right. So I always lived in this, like, whatever’s next and whatever seems big. So I ended up in boom in New York City, and I got to see the birth of like an era from the inside. Like, I, like, people knew the things that I’ve seen, the books we could write. And then when I started my own agency, like early in the 2000s, it was, you know, again, in the precursor of the social era, like social media, which started to kind of pop in 2004 2005, you know, 2007, when Facebook finally went full on for everyone. So there was this sense of the impetus of, of history, and the prescience of what was coming.

And part of it was reading, like, I love to read, so I would read books, like, you know, a whole new mind, my right brain or so on the future. And, you know, Daniel Pink talks about the role that designers are going to play in the future and I’m like, Oh, my God, who’s going to prepare these people and

So I said, let me start a company that produces people. So I, and he wrote it in his book, when he signed it for me, I told him that I had started my previous business from his previous book free agent nation. The group remember was originally a collective right? I got that idea from his book, which said everybody was going to be freelancing. Well, if you’re all freelance, why don’t we all work together on projects, and I use that as the model for the group to start it, you see what I’m saying, I’m extracting from some writer, Daniel Pink, an insight that he has on what the future is going to be like. And I start prototyping my ideas with those insights. And that produces innovation. And the group really grew and thrived from that. So I’m paying attention to, you know, what’s happening in culture. And I’m fusing that with my ideas as I progress forward, right? very actively, but your point of courage and my story of, you know, my mother’s passing and like this, like sense of impending doom. So I grew up in a seven day Adventist family. So the second coming was always coming. Like you’re Jesus is coming back tomorrow? You don’t know.

So there’s this urgency to do something great with your life, to do the work to grow, that there’s no choice almost. So it’s not an issue that I live in a world of courage. I’ve lived in a world of having no choice. I had to do this. I had to jump to the next thing. I had to create something crazy. I had to take risks. You know, and I’ll tell you, it’s not easy being always in that edge. Being always that guy. You know who does these things? It takes much. It’s not even the courage man, because the courage I have in spades. What I’ve had to develop over the last six years is the fortitude. The fucking stomach, you know, the abs, the six pack spiritually speaking, the third chakra you know the solar plexus. Because if you’re going to live like I live in this continual state of, you know, more, a bigger, whatever it is that you want to create, and not, you know, taking no for an answer from the universe of doing it, you’re going to have to build the fortitude. And part of it is not fortitude. Like because it’s not that you’re going to withstand it and have somebody there sucker punch you in the abs. It’s actually the discernment and the wisdom to simply now you know, how much effort to put in

CK LIN 14:34
So how do you do that? Is there a mental model you use? So actually, and it’s a really key point here because a lot of people listening to this probably are of similar mindset. We’re infinite spiritual beings, living human life. I want to manifest the best version of myself to create to make a difference to create company, whatever it may be, and, and the pitfall of that is existential stress. Am I doing enough? Nothing’s ever good. Let me continue to live in the future and then the cost of that when I’m in that round of financing a regret up the past and future. Yeah, all that stuff. So So I see a lot of people living in that. Yeah. So how do you you know, have that and not to be so consumed by by not arrived yet? I’m never ever gonna be good enough. Yeah. Comparing to you Elon Musk.

You’re no Steve Jobs. You know, the best place that I draw some knowledge, some wisdom for that is from Osho. You know, you read Oh, show, you know, it’s not like I’m an Osho expert. I read one or two books and I went to Osho for a while and I love listening to his videos.

At Osho, you listen to him every day, like for the 16 days that I was there every night you dress in white and you watch Osho speak, but one of the things he talks about is that your ordinary, so like we in the West get fed this thing that you’re extra ordinary, here’s an A grade, here’s, you know, a prize, congratulations, you’re employee of the month, like, we’re always like seeking out to highlight the ordinary, the extraordinary, right? But the work really just happens in the everyday right. Nobody’s given awards for like, you know, you know, doing your bed, like brushing your teeth, so So the reason that he talks about that is that even as you build your practice as a teacher, and as a, you know, quote unquote, guru of some sort, right?

That you have to remember that your ordinary So the same thing happens for like, the small, the young startup entrepreneur and she’s like, really ambitious and You knows that she’s infinite and that she can do anything if she wants to manifest it. But then at the other end, that drive kind of like consumes you right and you don’t shut down or you don’t realize that you’re human, you’re ordinary, you’re in a mortal body, get some rest, get some exercise, you know, eat well, I’ll have good relationships. Don’t forget about your family. All the things that I didn’t do. When I was building my company, all I did was build my company I was focused on I got up in the morning, I walked, you know, to my office, I came home at seven o’clock, I ate at work, I did everything at work, I my relationships I didn’t invest in I didn’t want to invest in my family. And that it ultimately creates this horrible existential angst that at 39 I had to like it’s there’s songs written about it, you know, like, where have the days gone by, you know, this is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful Millennials are going through that a lot younger now. Because they’re going in so hard and so hot and realizing Oh my god, this is so disappointing when they go into the workplace. And then they go do yoga teachers training and like, relax for a bit and then they realize, Oh shit, you know, I’m not supposed to be in that old system and not what? So that’s where we’re all kind of stuck now that we know.

CK LIN 18:15
You feel like it’s a journey to go through that. Can you like to learn the wisdom from others?

Can you hack it? Right? Exactly water there is a secret to hacking it. Okay, go ahead. I’ve been hacking it the whole time. So the number one issue in what people kind of like have to hack in order to get all the systems in order to try something out? Is that it the systems help quell their lack of belief? Because it breaks things down steps it, it gives the well hey, we’re all trying this out. And it’s an experiment, right? The guru or the person teaching you the system provides the fundamental faith in it. Right? Oh, if it worked for him, it worked for me. Here’s my testimonials, right. And then people We’re willing to try the system. But what’s interesting is that it’s not actually people think that it’s what it is, right? Whatever the tools are, that work, what works is actually the system of how to teach those tools. Because all the tools are universal. There’s tons of different ways of doing the things that you want to do, right? different paths and different paths, different flavors. So if you learn that the system is really what matters, that it’s less about what it is, because we don’t go to Osho and do this India thing, because that’s really when spiritual, got our landmark and do it in a room with you know, no curtains. And you know, what I mean? Like it’s the same work is just in a different cultural context, right? So I was agnostic to all of it. So I’ve experimented and tried all the different systems, how masterminds work, how, you know, webinars, work, how YouTube videos work, how this works, and I just get to sense all the mechanics of all of it. And then whatever ones I want to maintain and continue kind of naturally occur? Yeah, I pick and choose, I pick and choose, I’ve never really liked god, I’m not the guy who went and research all the online platforms and like, did all this stuff. I just go I need an online platform. Which one do I know this one, okay, move forward, right? Like I’m moving at that speed in my choices in my decisions, okay, sometimes that’s not good. Because there’s stuff that you actually need to slow down for that you need to pay attention to some of the basic fundamental stuff like financial systems and controls, etc, you should be present to those for the most part, as much as you can earlier than later. But the reason I’m saying all this, in general, is is going back to, is there a way to hack it? You know, I’m one that says I’m a serial experimental lyst. I’m going to experiment with a few and see which ones kind of I like and then continue experimenting further with those. And then once you know that, it’s really the system itself, like the steps that you have to take, you know, 21 days it takes to build a habit. So you have to repeat something over and over again, right? I wanted to learn better yoga, you know, for myself like so that I didn’t have to depend on a teacher when I went so I went and did yoga teacher training. Now I’m like, I get it, how the system works, and why it works. So in my openness and in my default state of belief, and faith that comes from my very Christian, you know, fundamentalist upbringing. I already had one of the fundamental keys to the system, which is what you have to believe. that the faith the bigger you know, like now, because if you believe it says it in the Bible and you believe then it is and and every philosophy says it every philosophy is that belief in yourself believe in the system. Well, you also know and get to know and understand that you’re not separate From the system, self is just this thing that we created, you know, to be able to objectively drive our, our meat suit that we’re driving around from a consciousness standpoint. You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s basically we were issued a unit anime is the best metaphor for this, you know, the whole exoskeleton thing that they put the pilot into, right? So we’re the pilot and consciousness, right? We’re put into this exoskeleton and you’re given a designation male and a number or whatever, name you know, CK and put it into a family that’s gonna like you know, crap the path of that exoskeleton but it’s just an exoskeleton so that that’s self that we think is like, it’s just that big robot is Gundam is the, you know, voltron all different conceptually. But right. Let’s sit here and explain the difference between Mecca genres and anime And the reason why I’m, I’m really being very, for me the question and the intention for this whole podcast that we said at the beginning was, who am I?

And, and I’m getting to this point as I keep on asking that question, you know, it just almost strips it all the way down to, to, to the to love to like build all you have to be as loud right and I know that sounds like such an accelerated pace from what’s How do you make it work? How do you hack it to believe, just be loved, right? Yeah. And it’s for the activation of ideas and reality. Like Imagine if you’re 3d printing, right? The 3d printing mechanic is that you have a resin that until it’s activated by laser, it doesn’t solidify right. So then basically, they printer itself, digitally puts a mental image of it and shoots the laser. And it only turns on in the distance of that mental image, but the object isn’t actually in front of it. The object is in the computer file in CAD data, managing the laser to where to shoot. And then the 3d object appears, right. So if you think of emotion as that laser, our ideas are just resin. They’re just words and thoughts and like this would be cool.

Until the laser of emotion that you believe in it, that’s another your designer believes in it that your programmer believes in it, you know that your investor believes in until you have that laser activated, which is your your heart. A lot of people fake it, but most people really invest in people that really believe it that are passionate right about what they’re doing.

Unless you have that laser activated Which is the heart, which is knowing how to love yourself which is knowing how to love others, which is not how to listen as being a mature adult. You know, I mean it people think of it in try to give it all these spiritual labels and all these things and enlightenment or whatever. And it’s just being a mature, whole, complete integrated human being, like little old Asian people that are super wise and like to smile at you and laugh like Yoda they are just mature.

We make up all these stories, like they’ve been around a lot. They know nothing matters. They know they’re gonna die soon, you know, they’re just like, okay, right.

CK LIN 25:35
But you were speaking about a hacking process. So what’s the hack?

So the three steps are really, really simple. So you have to define it. You have to define it. whatever it is that you want in your life? The vision, the vision. Yes, exactly. The people call it a vision if you don’t have a vision for what it is and I can’t even talk to you about it. Like you don’t know what you want to do. Okay, right. Right. Good luck.

CK LIN 25:59
How do you go from point A to point B if you don’t know what point B is?

You have to do it and people are afraid of it because they think people are going to judge them. They’re going to Oh, you’re so what? You can’t do that. You’re a freaking you know, whatever bartender. And then you have to mock it up and mocking it up isn’t like you’re going to sit there and make models, you know, with like a designer, okay? If you’re a designer like me, I sketch stuff out, like, you know, and visualize it in a form that I can enjoy and show to others.

And I do a lot of projects like that, like even my Burning Man camp, I just mocked it up in vision forum and work with some architects that we had there and came up with some really beautiful slides and people were like, Whoa, this is cool. Let’s do that. It didn’t really exist until it existed, right? So you have to mock it up. You know, cities are built with architectural plans, right? All these things are important and we don’t design our own reality because we don’t have those tools.

Like you might not have been taught how to sketch something out in conceptual form. And then the final thing is you have to share it. You have to say it to other people, you have to say, here’s my plan. Here’s what I’m trying to do. What do you think? And people will tell you, or yellow, or they help you and they open energy portals forward. So So if everyone behaved that way, like if we were all entrepreneurs, and like, we all had to pitch each other our 10 slides. So what we wanted to do in our life, things would be amazing. Like, I wish I could bring that well, I’m saying that out loud, that level of like, tool simplicity to the process of business, you know, of investor and business, creation and entrepreneurial space to everyday people. I’ve done it. I’ve done you know, workshops that bring the tools of user experience and like business planning to kids. They love it, you know, because they’re like, Oh my god, this is what I’m going to be great. Kids get excited about a plan about what they can become.

CK LIN 28:00
So step one, have a vision step to mock it up MVP it, minimum viable product, designing business plan, whatever you call it, whatever you call it, yeah, 10 slides. So step three is to share with others share with others.

So then if you look at that in terms of like, how to learn other things, you know, or how to do other things. So if you want to learn, you know, for me, I do it in the in the form of media consumption. So, you know, if I’m interested in how organizational systems and the dynamics of behavior and all these things, all my Netflix shows and all my YouTube shows, and all the books that I start to buy, kind of start to correlate around those topics. And I become like really interested in in the topics. And what I’m doing is that I’m taking snapshots and writing like notes in my notebook of just the nuggets that are affecting my own narrative. So people think that they have to learn like all these things.

You know how to scale my business, the Lean Startup agile principles, all these things before they start? I don’t ever do that. I jump. And you know, the Amazon delivers the books, you know, focus on the next step, right? Yeah. So when I had the groop and I had to deal with scaling, you know, I’ve downloaded an audible book on HR and walked every night, like for an hour around, you know, downtown and listen to it. And the next morning, I’m like, I know HR. So I downloaded the matrix. And I immediately knew that I needed to take some actions based on the book, just from the insights that I got. People are like, Oh, am I gonna remember the whole book? No, I don’t give a fuck if I remember one word in the book, as long as I remember the sentence that gave me the answer to what I needed. So you just basically mining for gold in there. And then you hope that the book you read the reviews, make sure you ask a friend. That’s the number one thing. Ask a friend for a book recommendation, social media. Hey, I’m trying to figure out how to do budgeting, you know. Boom, there’s a few books people recommend.

CK LIN 30:03
Well, then how do you sit through the noise versus the signal? Because as you said, If you say you want to scale your organization,

yeah. So this is this is a big problem that I see kids having is that they there, they love podcasts, they love consuming and then consuming becomes the the thing. So like, I don’t listen to any podcast. I don’t listen to other than myself. I listened to my Facebook Live sometimes again to see what I said. And that’s good, because integrating it and I’m like, Damn, that was good. Right now I’m listening to one podcast, Russell Brand, because I love how he what he’s bringing into the mix, and I like him.

CK LIN 30:43
He resonates with you.

He resonates a lot with me, like I love I love him. But I know the books that I have around me are just the books that I’m interested in. I don’t. My only bad habit is that I go on CNN, just to see if the world hit the world has ended yet. the point about it is that I I’m kind of like on a Tim Ferriss style media diet most of the time other than checking in on CNN to see some news sometimes.

I try not to, you know, research or like, be it unless I’m specifically looking for something so Google is my my best friend right or YouTube. I don’t really get caught up in the latest greatest shit. you recommend that for others saw a video. I saw Gary Vaynerchuk a little bit when you started I read his books moving on. Unless somebody really recommends it, and like tells me you should totally watch this. I’ll say that this will resonate. I want to I it’s just it’s easy to get distracted. Like I’m super add and distractible. So guys, I

I don’t want to make it even worse. Look at where I live. I mean, I already have books. And so what I distract myself most with is writing down my own thoughts. And it starts looking like you live like a madman. But what’s better to be distracted by than your plans and the things that you’re creating? So I’m present to them every day. And when I see them, it gets me back to thinking. So it’s like keeping me in, you know, the realm in the space of what I want to create. It’s the highest thing, like it’s even posted at a ritual level, in a way on my wall, where from the top down?

CK LIN 32:36
Is there a process that you pick and choose to keep? What because we all have, let’s say, thousands of thoughts every day? How do you prioritize?

prioritization 123 that is in notice that things have numbers on it like a two, a two. So, prioritization, and also from user experience or from mapping things out the things at the top of Most important, and then as it goes down, it’s least important. Also writing things really big, like people have the tendency to write things like in a notebook, or really small or on a sticky with a pen. No, I write it with a sharpie on an index card, because it’s bigger than a sticky, and I can read the Sharpie from far away. Because what you do when you have a strategic room, like a war room, if you ever run an agency, this is all agency tools is that you got to be able to walk in and be briefed on a project like this. You got to be able to see the strategy you got to be able to see this at comps, you got to be able to see the progress from left to right. And your team knows how to prepare that for you. Because you’re the director. So you walk in and you’re looking at all of it, and then you’re like, Okay, I get it. I’m caught up. Yeah. So and then you might be doing a million projects. So you need to be able to catch up on that project immediately. That’s why they call it the brief. So in business communications, or in in the form of people don’t live in that realm because

They’re used to offices and terminals computers. So I believe in this kind of counter force always to whatever it is that taking your attention. And that’s why you see all my shit be very colorful, really big. And, and, and in my home, you know, not just at work. So I read the Best New York Times article ever It was so cute. It was basically a dad who was an engineer, programmer, a software programmer who did Scrum with his family, you know, and they had a planning meeting and they showed their Scrum board on their refrigerator. It was really cute. And and then they ended the sprint on Saturday or it was just like a lovely, lovely story.

CK LIN 34:44
Now I love that. That’s beautiful. So what I gather from everything you share so far is whatever system that you use, whether it be color, note cards, post-its, Sharpies, agile,

This guy that wrote that book, it means two things done. Yeah. David Allen. Yeah, that book is amazing read that. Actually, that book is referenced in lean. And it’s also referenced in Agile. So, all the noted everybody’s just mixing everything up. So, like my, my, my philosophy, I’m an Intellectual anarchist. Yes. Take learn as many of the things that you want to learn tools wise. And by learning I mean, like, read the damn book. A lot of people think that they’re going to watch a YouTube video and like, Oh, I know how to do agile. No, you know, read Scrum, read the book, what inspired it? What are the principles of it, because if you understand the deeper essence of getting things done of GTD, you can then begin building those into your other things, right?

You can only mix arts and crafts when you actually practice them. Does that make sense? So people think that all the thing they tried it for a day or two, it didn’t work, and then they stop.

CK LIN 36:03
Right. Let’s talk about that. How long do you practice before you stop? Because here’s a counter. Question about that is, you try this new system, you’re still in the ethers, you’re still bringing new ideas to reality. There isn’t a positive feedback loop. Right. So then how long do you stay in that? The action before you say, all right, this isn’t working isn’t getting me the results I’m looking for, then you stop.

So that’s the other part of the system, that that you know, the first part, you know, defining division, mocking it up and saying it is one part, but then the other part comes to accountability and to time. So that system you have to put into a circle, right? So I’m doing right now a circle, core circle, and it’s just six people. And we’re all about developing and designing our own businesses and our own things together. And it’s three months right. So the feedback loop of the creation and the planning is happening in the context of a circle of people.

When people start executing the things that they need to be accountable for, like, for example, writing a medium post or, you know, finishing a capability stack with case studies that they didn’t have before. The different components, were holding them accountable to those. Once those things are done, and then they’re executed or put out, like you use your capabilities deck to communicate with a potential client. And then you begin seeing how the energy shifts there, or you create a video to start engaging your audience about a particular topic. When you’re doing it with a group with the circle. That first step, the courage to jump and do those things, and have other people review it. The feedback that you’re looking for, is really what matters. And as an entrepreneur, you do that with your advisors and you do that with customer primary user research. Like you engage a customer and I you saw me doing that building the school because you were one of them. You came to the first groop school ever in my office, evil businessman, right? You came to that, right? Those were all feedback loops. I mean, I create very physical feedback loops, because I had the courage to make those jumps, who had had no business doing evil businessman, dude, like the fact that it was so good and it looks so good. It was all just pure bravado. Like, you know, like, the front row and all the people that were like entrepreneurial already. As creatives. We said the goal of people businessman was the same thing as the school, which is to make creatives more entrepreneurial, help them succeed in business.

And have we accomplished that? Yeah, that prototype for evil businessmen 10 years ago, nine years ago. So when you ask how long does it take to make something work? Motherfucker I work on 10 year 15 year arcs. I’m setting up the thing back then for now.

CK LIN 38:57
Right. So how did you know that That was the right path that you wanted to take that on. So ask this question very specifically, because it’s in the doing that you can refine your vision, right? You can’t refine your vision arbitrarily in a vacuum in not in some desk in your notebook, you do it, then you get some feedback. In internally, you’re like, Oh, this is if this feels good. And externally, you also get some feedback as well. Right? So how did you had that level of clarity?

Yeah, that’s, that’s. So that’s where the whole conversation about spirituality comes in. Because you know, the path that you’re carving is not yours. You know, so the clarity you’re looking for, is for your ego, always for the self. It’s for you, Is this right? Is this wrong? So when you ask the question, instead, is this my path or is this not my path?

That’s a different question. And then you’re asked, well how you know your path, you look back, you look back your path, your path is right in front of you, if you turn around, because it’s kind of a reversal of, you know, your, your family history or of all the things you chose before. So I chose to be a designer, you know, instead of being a pastor, which is what my family wanted me to me. I chose to live in technology, you know, during, boom, and afterwards live in the software realm. So, Pastor, designer, technologists, then I chose to live in the world of teaching, you know Lynda Weinman from was my mentor, my hero, and I did the school. So so my mom was a teacher, my grandmother made her. Her well be her being got all my aunts and uncles educated by opening a school, and I and I actually did some work. I asked them for their life story before they all passed. Many years ago, like five years ago, when I started six years ago, when I started doing my journey, one of the first things I did was go back home and spend time with my family, and listen to their stories, and I recorded them. And I’m like, Oh my God, my grandmother. Her heritage is she was a master teacher, and a community builder and church builder and I’m like, I’m my grandmother. So when you then look at your path and at your choices, are they mine? Or are they the choices that my grandparents made? It’s what resonates with you is what resonated, you were, you’re their child. They brought you up, their values are in you, you know, their dreams are in you. And you know, as Asians and Latinos, we struggle with this issue because parents are so an Indian people too. I mean, well, that’s Asian of where their parents want them to be something specific, and it’s a projection of who they want it to be. But you end up no matter which way you slice it being that and always having that gap. You know, it’s like, Am I being what my parents wanted me to be? Or am I pursuing what I want to be? And then if you take a third way, and you say, what is my path, you know, based on all of those things and you look at it neutrally, without judging your parents or judging your past, you’ll get answers there. The more judgment and the more issues you know, you can’t close the loops with your with your parents, you know of anger or you know, resentment. If you can’t close the loop with your past, the healing is the main vehicle for understanding your own path. Because all those things that pain you and the things that stop you the things that take away the courage, our fear and letting go that is one of the hardest parts because you have to complete with all those people. And one of those people they have to complete with is yourself. forgiving yourself, for all your mistakes, forgiving yourself or you know, whatever. It is the divorce, the different career than what your parents wanted. You know, being a weirdo. You know, that that anger and that resentment with whoever with God or with your parents or with your friends or with your past or with yourself, stops you from jumping?

CK LIN 43:16
Yeah. A lot of people listening to this are interested in high performance. And one of the mental models that I teach them is removing any interference, any kind of judgment, trauma, resentment, anger, anything towards others or towards yourself ultimately interferes with your present moment and right here now. And so that’s what I want to underline in everything that you said. Total agreements there for sure. And also from what you just share so far, you can actually look at your history for a very strong signal, whether it be what you’ve done yourself professionally and personally and or intergenerational or you parents did when your grandparents did, etc. And you can actually use them as a very strong signal to think about your own path. Is that accurate?

Yeah, you know, and I call this tethering and anchoring, like in rock climbing. One of the things that I really recommend because some of the exercises and in personal development and coaching and training that you do for this is that you have people tell their story, right? So you’re by every decade like your 20s, your teens, your 20s or 30s, or 40s. Just tell your story and how you felt in those times. And if you look at biographies or if you look at why people of note you know, write their own stories is because in the stories there’s you know, lessons and signals, right, but doing your own and then asking your dad and asking your mom and asking you around how that guy started doing begins to give you what I call tribal user stories or narratives because if you look at customer experience, right and and developing software, we create set of user stories and subsets of customer types. So in how we work already, we’re doing that. So if you do that for yourself backwards for your life, basically primary user stories of the users in the system and your family, you’ll get so many interesting insights about who you are. It’s like, Oh, my uncle is just like me. And he’s like this like that. I’m like, that’s where I get that from. And no, it’s not whether you get that from you just recognize it in yourself by seeing it in others. And the fact that they’re your family gives you this like, oh, okay, cool.

CK LIN 45:36
Yeah, bring back to another spiritual principle or saying that people say a lot is everyone is either you a mirror or projection. Yeah. So very similar to that, hey, I resonate with one of my uncle said, it’s not that you inherited from your uncle, rather, it’s just some internal resonance from you. Okay. So let me ask you to change direction a little bit because you always are looking backwards rare view mirror so to speak, then, then you are only kind of progressing very linearly, right? How do you then innovate? Because you can say, hey, Elon Musk never had anyone to say it. Let’s go to Mars. That’s it. Let’s be an interplanetary humans human species. Right.

So this is where the tethering and anchoring comes in. Because backwards can only be linear because, you know, it’s, it’s not linear. It’s actually trees branch chain, right. Okay. But but all the narratives are already happened. So they already have trajectories forward there’s no trajectory right? So innovation happens in a quantum state of possibility. Right right. So all possibilities right your shirt. You’re wearing a really cool Mandela that that, that has a lot of points on it, right. So if you look at reality as a grid of different dots, like almost pixels, the ability to kind of carve. Like my previous laser metaphor with, with 3d printing, 3d printing comes from two things. One, having the image of what it is you want to create, like for Elon Musk is like whatever, you know, planetary exploration Mars or whatever, these big visions, right? And then the way forward is using basically the tactics of how he moves forward. He’s doing the same thing I’m doing. He’s using software mechanics, you know, portfolio theory, and agile tools and, you know, you, you, you research and you find out more how they work internally. There’s a lot of chaos, but inside that cast, that the fundamental tools that are empowering the innovation are not necessarily the ones that are predictive and like, you know, you know, planning right like, it’s basically presence and in, in line like, ability to, to refactor.

Once you set the big vision, you can put a bunch of people at it and that it won’t be the plan. It will be how they act in the process. And can they recover and do it again and do it again and do it again and do it again.

CK LIN 48:17
Right the iterative process where you were addressing the how what I’m what I’m addressing is the what, right so right so meaning when you ask, so Henry Ford famously say if he asked what people want, they would say I want faster horses, right then a new vehicle. So that’s a jump from horses to car. So what I’m addressing you Yeah, if you just look backwards, you’re going to want faster horse. rather than innovate, right? Do a quantum leap, jump to the next level, whatever is next for you. Yeah, so what I’m referring to is that like, how do you define Alright, so now I kind of look at all my past and I asked this question because some people who know me well and said hey CK Why are you always asking questions about the past or instead of living in the present and then invent the future? Which I agree 100% but I think what they misinterpreted my questioning is not because I want to dwell on the past, right is actually addressing everything you said. So it gives me clues so how my thought patterns etc. And such that I can innovate newly from nothing, giving all the information that I have. So going back to the original question that I wanted to ask you is then now that you know the historic trend line from yourself, when your parents, grandparents, etc. Then how do you identify was the future, that vision the next step division for you?

For me personally, I do it based on customer profiles, like I actually make some up as an assumption, that these are the three people that I would be serving in my idea and what I want to do. And then I put them out, and I get people’s like, Oh, yeah, that’s me or like, you know, I gotta make adjustments. I sometimes I just interview people that are in the category. So So let me just recap real quick. So what you said is, you create a profile of the people that you want to serve. Yeah. So it’s a combination of me creating a profile that people want to serve and meeting their needs. Right? That’s one, but the other one is of who I am, like, what’s my essence? Like? What am I about? So because in the intersection between my own needs and who I am, like my business goals, and my my essence, mentally, of what I can create, which would be your positioning, like what are you good at, right?

CK LIN 50:54
They call this the founder market fit.

Yeah, exactly. Knowing that knowing yourself know thyself, which is, which is a big one. And, and then knowing the needs of the people around you, you can you can really in that overlap, you’ll find what it is that you’re supposed to be doing.

Because ultimately your needs are going to be sustainability to get paid and their needs as pertained to who you are, in your essence. I mean, in my case, my in my customer profiles is the people just like me that were designers, right. That’s the primary audience that I kind of built, so that I know their needs super well, because I was there, you know, I experienced with the experience, and that’s how I created the preliminary profiles. But then as they began participating in the process of defining themselves as customers, or as co-creators is what I call them, I get more and more fidelity between exactly what it is that they need an exactly what it is that I need is just like a conversation. How can I support you? How can I support. And and that that takes that takes doing that intentionally, like what I just described is the core process, right, the process that I developed and that I make a living from that I saw. And it’s it’s just basic strategic planning tools.

And the fundamental is that if you define who you are, and you define who the people around you are, and you can find something that provides them value that you can deliver successfully over and over again, then you’re in really good shape, whatever that is.

That’s the innovation happens in the no judgment of the model. Right? Because what you want to deliver the wisdom, the insights, the transformation that you want to deliver. That’s it. That’s it, it’s delivering that so the model will evolve. Yes will change. You might not like podcasting, you might not like this or like whatever happens as long as you’re clear that the values what matters

CK LIN 52:59
Yeah. What you hear this cliche a lot say business solve the mission of a businesses to solve a problem or your customers. And in my younger years, when I first started becoming entrepreneur, what I will focus on is the solution. Right? But as the year goes on, what I realized when I really focus on primary objective is understand the problem.

That’s the hardest part

CK LIN 53:28
focus on the problems then articulated, then I can see how my solutions, whatever widget that I’m building can actually fit into the problems. Because if they don’t, my idea, customers, they don’t even know what the problems are. And then you just say, here’s a widget, they’re going to look at you and say, Alright, so what am I going to do with this widget,

yes, customer development. That’s the fundamentals of it. Don’t solve problems that don’t need solving by now what the problem is, yeah. And isten, that requires, you know, people to be courageous and like, you know, put themselves out there and to be a little bit not. So you’re living in the unknown and you’re living in possibility, right? So for you, I mean, as an entrepreneur, that it early stage of figuring these things out.

It’s, you know, you need to be really present to it. Because what what resonates well with you, because you’ve actually had conversations with your customers, it gets you excited, and it gets them excited. It builds the energy to build the thing. So engaging your customers and engaging your community and the building of your own ideas is really magnificent.

CK LIN 54:38
Is there any specific prompts or tools that you can share with the people who are listening to this to really help elucidate clarify what their core customer problems are? And let me let me say this, because if you just walk up to a random person, let’s say your ideal customer and say, Hey, what’s the problem? How can I support you?

Yeah, that’s a little creepy. Yeah, well, let’s let’s play actor right now I’ll actually be just this is a random meeting and meeting you as a potential customer. What I do, and I’ll just preset it sure I’m creating a customer profile in the format, from core of like the first demographic information, just age where they’re from what they do for a living. Second, the story like what are you doing? What are you up to? Like, where, where you’re at right now. And in listening to that story I can get to and jump to, what do you need right now? Or like, what are the things that are challenges for you right now? Which leads me to solutions. And I can do it all in one session, and I’ll play it with you because I do it all the time when I go to a coffee shop. What’s your name?

CK LIN 55:49
as myself? Yeah.

I love your shirt, man. That’s an awesome shirt. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. Cool, man. So we’re waiting in line for coffee right now. What’s your name? cool, man. I’m Jose. I live here in Venice. where do you live? Oh, nice. Fancy. What do you do? Cool. Yeah, you’re about 38, 36. Damn dude, you look good. So you’re an entrepreneur. So what what are you working on? Oh, man, I love that. That’s amazing that what why were you doing that? Yeah, that’s, that’s Yeah, I built something not too dissimilar. But it’s It was challenging and there’s some interesting challenges in scaling and, and waiting long enough for, for things to start to take off and it was so. This is interesting. How’s it going on your end? You know, any challenges? Sure. Well, the challenges to letting people know about this particular offer and the transformational aspect of it and potentially what they can receive, to grow their selves to grow their business. letting more people know. So the awareness aspect around Have you done any, like business planning for it or any? Anyway, yeah, man. I love what you’re doing, man. It’s pretty awesome. Are you on Instagram? Let’s follow each other on Instagram.

I will also tell you more about my story. Sure if we were really in a coffee shop and not in the middle of a podcast. But I just built a customer profile in all the quadrants and I understand the casual Yeah, yeah. So label relate, like it’s, I can have that conversation. That’s the primary user interview. Customer interview.

Now I’m a nurse and you work Pacific Palisades, you know, hospital and like a cool, what are you working on? I always always get to I’m trying to launch this, you know, cannabis brand on the side. Oh my god, okay, and I can relate to the entrepreneurial stuff, but not everybody’s going to be a profile. And to be honest, I’m not I never I’m not doing that, like, is being a human. I’m just being that it’s not like somebody Boise pointed out to me that every like he’s like, wait a minute, are you creating user profiles of people when you’re having conversations? And I’m like, oh my god. Yeah, I think I am. Because it’s also from a book called the coaching revolution. It was written by by an awesome guy, forgot teaches at USC, and it has this whole interview process. And so I’ve learned from different places to piece together. Of course, there’s guides on how to do user interviews, and I’ve obviously done user interviews in my software practice. So I already understand the mechanics of sitting there being friendly, making people feel comfortable, you know, like, it’s just not making it into weirdness. Right?

Who are you? What are your needs? Yeah. Explain yourself customer show, tell me your deepest, darkest. And he was keeping you up. But it’s just, it’s just real conversations. It’s just being real. Yeah.

CK LIN 59:26
That’s beautiful. That’s great. So change the directions a little bit. So what do you hope to achieve or because you’re constantly reinventing yourself, I know that you’re also using the platform that you have to teach spiritual principles. Tell us a little bit about

Yeah, you outed me a little bit there at the beginning, which was one of my goals eventually. So I’ll make it as succinct as possible. In looking how to help designers grow as entrepreneurs and as their own business owners in looking at how to help startup teams work more effectively and have more success, and then looking at how leadership teams, you know, plan and and then roll their, their customers or their their teams into the vision of the company. In all those realms, right? I learned a lot of tools and mechanics and like, you know, ways of doing it and understand that and I could definitely go into the business of like, organizational consulting and culture, and coaching, I would be very good at that. Right. Right.

And, and that’s part of what I am going to do next. But the one thing that stood out was just the teaching of, you know, simple transformational principles, right? That’s such a weird, simple transformational principles. Well do tell what are those that it was faster, to kind of like, accelerate people’s own personal growth than to have to deal with the team and with the other levels, right, right.

CK LIN 1:01:07
Instead of focusing the tactics, yeah,

focus on the individual people and making them powerful and making them equanimous, and making them, you know, able to communicate and lead better. That would be a faster way. And that’s ultimately what led me to going to New York and to work in a consensus and that’s where I got a lot of these lessons and ultimately, the Burning Man camp that, that, that I started with a few people. It’s about that it’s about the acknowledgement that the real way of getting the individual people to be more powerful in their work is to have them be more powerful in their in their own selves.

CK LIN 1:01:47
So for the skeptics listening to this, they may say to this conversation to be a little bit more woowoo, not very practical, you know, right. What would you say to that? How is how is that This going to impact the performance in life.

I mean, look at all I can shares my own story. I don’t really have any bite size, science proven nuggets that will convince anybody at one way or the other. All I know is that in my game and my video game that I’ve been playing for 46 years, I sought to ride that line the way between, you know, the material and then the spiritual and only because I was already comfortable with it, you know, I felt okay and, and once you start correlating them with science, you can always make the correlations between different practices and the benefits of them cognitively, and you can always break them down into three step hacks, you can always do those things. But if you really want to do it faster, you know, you’re going to have to like let go of Whatever preconceived ideas you have uncertainty and like, I’m super smart, I am analytical I know exactly Now this doesn’t sound right. You’re gonna have to let go of a lot of that and just experiment and really be open to new ways. That’s the that’s what I’ve done and I’m I’m where I am and if you want a testimonial for it, it’s like it’s not easy. But you become powerful and you can create your own reality it’s just takes courage.

CK LIN 1:03:33
Yeah, I asked that question partially for my former self former self trained as a PhD scientists, everything’s evidence base if you don’t show me your evidence and doesn’t exist, it’s not real, etc, etc. Then as I progress in my own journey, when I realized ultimately, books, knowledge is great. don’t get me wrong and felt experience is my own reality. Yeah, if I feel it, then is real for me. Yeah. And and and as I grow older, it’s more I take a more of an emperialist approach. So I experiment. Yeah. Then I check in with myself. I like, Is it real is not real? Okay? Science is science. Ultimately, we don’t if I have to really just get into the mechanics of how science works, we don’t still quite understand how quantum mechanics works. But we don’t understand why we don’t read this so many unanswered questions. We don’t understand how electricity works, but we use it every day. Yeah. Right. So ultimately, to me is what’s practical in my life? Does it give me the result I’m looking for? If it does, I’ll continue to use it until proven otherwise.

Right. Right. I love that period in empirical thinking. Yeah, yeah. I call it the iterative life. Like where it’s iteration after iteration of experiments. And, you know, you’re the ultimate scientists, you know, you’re the experiment. You know, try it out, right?

CK LIN 1:05:07
If there’s an area of life that doesn’t work, if there’s a block that you experience, if there’s, there are things that you have negative charges about if you can take actions about, you know, your hopes and dreams. If there’s anything that’s stopping you. Great, then that to me, that’s a boundary condition. Yeah. And then what kind of experiments Can you take to overcome that boundary?

I, one of my fundamentals for my experiments in my life is to look at areas that I’m avoiding, and going in that direction and taking the next steps and the action is as painful as it is, sometimes, and it’s it’s not. The initial part isn’t necessarily as pleasant as you’re hoping. But there’s a lot to be said for people really seek to be in hedonistic pleasure all the time. Let me sit on my couch and watch Netflix and turn other AC and have some popcorn. You know, we look for everything in our lives to be so comfortable. Right? So then we expect that in everything right in life, right? But sometimes is understanding that part of it is pain, right? I had a really great conversation with Tony Wang, my friend about this, where he’s like, yeah, it’s just learning to know that pain is part of the whole. And you’re like, damn. so so for me when I saw things that I was avoiding, or like, I got that tingly feeling of like nervousness about dealing with it. I would then jump.

CK LIN 1:06:46
So that was a signal to you that you should do it. because you have hesitation and fear and very counterintuitive because people say well, isn’t that something that you should trust? That means that there’s danger

Most things in our lives aren’t like you’re in front of a cliff. And you have to use that logic. Because that reflex is built for our reptilian brain for survival of actual death. But having a conversation with your spouse about how you’re feeling, and avoiding it is not clear. It’s just emotions, right? You’re not going to die. We have a conversation, it will be painful emotionally, but there’s no physical harm. So that’s the point, the one of the things that you’re avoiding, and the truth that you’re not dealing with. And they come out eventually. And that’s part of maturity and getting older. So I mean, super brutally honest with yourself and your friends doing that with you too.

CK LIN 1:07:42
I recently finished the book by David Goggins named “can’t hurt me”. So he came from nothing and didn’t had a abusive father would beat him every day, raised by a single mom in essentially got himself out of the And the condition that he was in and really trained himself to be one of the top navy seals and was candidate from for Ranger School. And now he went on to set several ultra marathon world ultra marathon records and then had a warld record for the most pull ups you can do in 24 hours, etc. So one of the key takeaway that I got from reading that book is embrace the so people say step into the fire, step into the crucible and pay in the struggle is the fire in that fire is where you can actually burn away your limiting beliefs about yourself, your limiting beliefs about the world. And that’s actually what I got from.

Yeah, and one thing I wanted to clarify, we’re going to loop it around as a circle. I mean, when you introduce me, the you ended with and is transitioning to being a spiritual teacher. When I kind of loop back, I’m continuing to teach the things that I’ve been teaching happens to be some of the ideas and some of the principles and I’m beginning to include and integrate into what I’m teaching have, you know parallels inside spiritual practice, but for I don’t have an intention to and that goes with the intention for the podcast like where am I?

I think my intention is to continue as a creator as a creative, right, of things, whatever those things might be, but the method in which you do it comes from a philosophical and from a, you know, we can call it spiritual kind of sense or aspect to it. And where it intersects with people’s purpose and entrepreneurship and creativity is that like really sweet spot that you can still now communicate, you know about the more subjective and the more spiritual aspects of practice and entrepreneur, look at look at what I put over there on that index card spiritual startups. Because there are a lot of people that are more conscious that are doing business today. And some people call it conscious capitalism. Some people call it something else, right? There’s all these different labels that are emerging. And you’ve been part of those communities, you know, in the past here in Los Angeles, that’s continuing, but that’s continuing under less of a labeling way and more and the values of the CEOs that I’m seeing emerge, right, you know, millennial CEOs, and, you know, even you know, companies that are ran are run by older CEOs, founders, but that also have, you know, the conscious aspect of whatever it is that they’re doing, and it’s really beautiful to see. So, there is a space for spirituality in business. There’s a space for being able to align your purpose and Bring humanity to business. So you can really begin stopping using this word, and really talking to the public and to corporate entities with just simply those ideas. You know, I mean, purpose and human aspects up, but that when you add human to it is the thing that’s missing is the spiritual part, right? Because we kind of moved away from how tribes used to inscribe or, you know, encode their spiritual practices into their people through rituals and celebrations, etc. We live in a secular kind of society. But anyway, that that’s, that’s the clarification was that I am continuing, I am continuing to do what I’m doing. But now merging all those things. Yes, I’m synthesizing them. So so it’s that because I want to avoid the label of spiritual teacher. spiritual teacher or of our design teacher, you know, I’m like I choose one. No, it’s what people say actually, you know, they say I love your stuff because you also bring a spiritual dimension to it. Great. You see, I didn’t have to change you know who I am I just integrated who have become.

CK LIN 1:12:22
Yeah, one of the things I started doing is a lot of Facebook Lives these days. And from doing them what I realized is that ultimately people who are going to resonate with me, you’re going to resonate me with me. It really doesn’t matter what the topic is. I could be telling my childhood stories. I could talk about my professional work. I could talk about plant medicine, I could talk about anything. That’s that’s what I got from pretty much from from doing it so far.

So looking back in your your journey: What kind of books seminars courses, teachers, they really help you with the inflection will catalyze your expansion on your consciousness.

All of them. I mean, I got something out of everything I mean, whether it was oh show, you know, an India or landmark here in the US or T Harv Ecker, one of his weekend things, or whether it was management training, or whether it was agile training, or whether it was design thinking training, plant medicine, plant medicine, Burning Man, Burning Man. Like I made everything in my life part of the experiment. I didn’t exclude anything. And I haven’t done everything. You know, the call for healing is a continual call.

Like there’s things that I’m healing right now. So I think that that the world is your school, but you have to choose to be a student like most people are in ego and then like, why should I go to India to look for enlightenment I’m going to go to India to look for enlightenment mother fucker you’ll go to India to learn breathing in like chakra meditation and dynamic meditation and all these cool tools that you can use to hack quote unquote, your brain you know, the body is the ultimate you know, kind of Portal and to listen to Osho to do karaoke with people from all over the world. You know, that that is the luxury that we don’t give ourselves as Americans the luxury to relax, just work on yourself. You know what I mean? We don’t do it. So so my origin and I always ask people to support the teachers and the people that are like helping them with that journey like you. You know, you do a plant medicine thing people show up in like, Take the journey. you enroll people in your journey, not because of like it being a product or an offering, but because man are so excited to share, like what it’s done for you. And I mean, yeah, I can talk for hours about ayahuasca, and you know about psilocybin and about all the different aspects of that. But

CK LIN 1:15:25
let’s talk about that. Yeah, let’s talk about that for a minute.

short conversation about that. Yeah. short conversation about that.

CK LIN 1:15:41
What did you get? What Why did you do it first place and what did you receive?

The first time I did it, I did it in New York City, or upstate New York. And I kind of flowed into it. It was almost like this is what’s next. I knew I was going to do it here. He knew a there was a calling for it. Yeah. And and my first experience was a simple one, it was kind of like a call to loyalty to Gaia to the plants, you know, it’s like, Are you with us? And I’m like, Oh, Mother effort, man. Like, I’m, like, I’m being recruited for the multi level marketing scam by the planet itself. And I said, Yes. And the next one was a bigger vision of like, some of the things but then it became the ceremonies after that got really personal, and it became about healing and different aspects of my past and unlocking, you know, some of those feelings that might have not been there before. And that kind of then accelerates into new work, you know, that you have to do potentially so you can get stuck in that loop. I haven’t been in it for a while but stuck in a loop. Well, because every progressively like, you know, I have friends who’ve done it 35 times or like, you know, right. So So this can continual loop for looking for any healing or unlocking or like your becomes a thing that you’re looking for a thing, God. So for me, just the natural flow of it, where it’s got me to now I just pause and I’m looking at it as, okay, I’m integrating and spending the time integrating. Yeah.

Because the last two ceremonies were really, really intense in terms of the work and it kind of matched the intensity of kind of like the life that I would be in, right. So what I mean by that is that as you expand or as you’ve grown, let’s call it that. You’re able to then live in a slightly different reality, right? Things are happening faster, more ease and flow opportunities are changing very quickly in the landscape becomes like, it’s live, right? You’re able to see the matrix, you’re able to see the matrix part and most people’s issues are There’s so much energy from all those open loops that it overwhelms you. So in order to be a pirate, as I say, you need to be able to sail the seas with no fear of death. So you have to develop this. It’s not cool, calm collective, not freaking out.

Because you’re not thinking or mindful of what it is it’s happening. You are super aware what’s happening and you know where it is, is that you stay in the present. You can plan and visualize, you know, this becomes a continual routine, like I do this on this daily. So it’s very, the best metaphor I can describe is like the whole teaching kung fu thing, like when you just practice over and over again the moves right? And then one day and occasion comes up and your teacher goes up. You’re just doing all the moves. Right? Muscle memory, yeah. So so as you grow and as you master the different practices, whether they be through physical things like yoga or exercise, mental things like meditation and journaling, once you master the practices of masters, and that’s why there’s so many people online teaching all these things. Here’s my journal technique. Here’s my mastermind. Here’s this, because basically, it’s what I call omni directional master school. And that’s what’s needed right now. And one of the things people usually ask when they take the step you’re taking, or any or the step that they’re probably avoiding taking by listening to this podcast. I mean, a master of masters. Is that the question like why, why me like What’s this? Uh, no, no, no asshole has nothing to do with you. Has nothing to do with you with CK LIN or with Jose Caballer. Oh, yeah, right. The reason why this is such an emerging thing is because of the system changing. That the only way that we can actually make this boat turn around like, you know, your actually listen to the news, wherever you actually see what’s happening in the world. The only way to turn this world around is that when people realize that they’re creators of their own reality, that they’re the ones who are going to make the future. And that message is difficult to talk to somebody who’s still in an employee mindset or is still in a, I get my money from the government are still in the centralized mindset, because we removed the dignity from being your own master, you know, through 20 Yeah, sovereignty, we removed that dignity so hard. And here’s the thing that people don’t understand that, you know, American Midwestern values of like, you know, piety and, you know, the docility and working in the factory, were embedded into our education and into our religion by the industrialist themselves. Henry Ford was an amazing proponent of you know, religion and education. You know, people don’t understand that they’ve been kind of conditioned to be lambs.

What you’re teaching and what you’re exploring and what you’re realizing a CK LIN, is it holy shit? No, I’m not, I’m actually a creator, I can actually make my own reality and I can be powerful in that. And whatever the incarnation of that is for you, you know, in terms of flavors in terms of like, you know, style that’s awesome because this you and then the other people that are on this podcast listening to it and are like, oh, I’ve been wanting to do that. And you know, it will be a not part of that is that the big the big shift is that it’s not about doing it because you want to become an expert or you want to become a guru or you want to become, you know, a master or whatever, teacher. I stopped doing it because of that, like that’s, you know, because a lot of people ask, How do I become an expert online right. It’s the realization that that your own transformation, your own experimentation on yourself to reach this mastery is the content, right? Because if you transform, you can do anything, right? So if you’re working on it, and you’re sharing it with other people like you are CK LIN, and I am, then we’re not trying to like, you know, build a business and I live in from podcasting and selling courses and selling kits or whatever online. We’re simply masters broadcasting our journey. And others resonate with it. Great. Yeah. And if others are willing to give you some money so that you can continue the journey and they can get the gifts. Great. Yeah. It’s simply an exchange of value is simply an exchange of love.

If you let go the business model and the mechanics of it and like, you have to know them and understand them and not put them in place. But you have to know that it’s all about sharing yourself and your own transformation. Genuinely, like really You’re just baring your soul. That’s the hardest part. You have to be naked in front of people all the time.

CK LIN 1:23:08
Yeah, I mean, speaking from my personal experience, the Facebook Live hasn’t been easy. There’s a lot of internal resistance. I don’t know, why should we say or you know if it’s if I should withhold some some part of me because, well, here’s the intention intention is to add value to whoever’s watching.

No, no, no, no, that I mean, okay, that’s and that sounds horrible. No, no, stop doing that. The value is in you. Meaning the value is in you revealing yourself to the people. So so and that that’s not meaning. You know, I call it emotional vulnerability porn, you know, like where you’re just sharing for the sake of getting your the sharing and being seen or perceived as vulnerable. Now, vulnerability is not about revealing your deepest darkest secret vulnerabilities about being as present as possible to what is, you know, at that point in that moment. So when you watch me do my Facebook Lives on Sunday, I’ll anchor into the day 6pm Sunday afternoon. So even in the narrative, I’m actually dropping it into my day. I hope you’re having a good weekend. I just finished watching, you know, like, some episodes of Merlin, you know, like suddenly it it’s in my day now. It’s actually here in my space, you know, and it’s in my space, right? And it’s really what’s behind me. Right. And, and then I kind of talk about the topic and where I got the topic from, sometimes from this sometimes it’s from that and then I break it down in three index cards on in terms of like the three anchors that the story that one was from last week, you know, new vision, define, mock it up, say it, and I don’t write what I’m going to say about those topics, but I think about them. And then behind the one card for each topic, I write three bullet points about what is it that I want to say with it. So when I flow through it, you know, I’m just flowing through the mechanics of showing the cards and and behind it, it gives me the three topics. So it looks and feels like I am just in the moment talking about the subject matter. And I am I have anchors throughout it, it’s just been held through the whole sequence and I can wrap it up and ended and and people are like, wow, that’s exactly what I needed to hear today. Boom, boom, boom. And it’s and it’s really a fundamental, you know, kind of loop that I learned to create.

Make it personal drop into it, from where you are, explain where it’s coming from. So that there’s some context into that this is something that I’ve been thinking about, and that opens up even more so because I’m actually sharing my story. Yeah. openly, transparently kind of interlocking all the views, whether it be Instagram or whether it be Facebook, or whether it be a Facebook Live or whether it be whatever a tweet, I’m interlocking all of them into the same narrative because it’s what’s real. It’s what’s actually happening. So I don’t see anything as online marketing. I am just broadcasting and who I am. Yeah, I am the message. Jesus said it really well. Don’t do what I say. Do what I do. So the broadcast, and you are the message, whatever that might be. That’s coming through you. Yeah. Because what’s coming through us awesome, brother. You’re on the journey.

CK LIN 1:26:55
With that said, Is there any call to action that you have for people who are listening to this: what’s the one call to action after everything you share your journey your overcoming your reinventing yourself, what you’re teaching, what you recommend the design principles, the having a vision, mock it up and then share it. And all these principles that we’ve covered plant medicine. You said a lot of beautiful gems. Is there what’s one action that people can take on?

Yeah, you know, I’m saying this to myself. And, and to you and into the people listening, you know, be easy on yourself. Relax into it. It’s it’s easier when when it’s, you know, it’s not that you’re not going to take it serious. It’s not that you’re not gonna like, you know, Make moves forward and jump into action. It’s not that is that you’re going to do it progressively by matching the vision and matching the story itself as you’re creating it. And that it unfolds. So what I’m saying almost has to be a little patient and to do the work of writing it down and like articulating it and sharing it with friends progressively and be okay with that aspect of it that early phase.

And let things unfold with more gentility, and less judgment. Like be easy on yourself. It doesn’t mean work less, maybe you do need to maybe you’re working too hard. But it means work more in tune with yourself with how you’re feeling and where you’re at. And don’t stifle your emotional and personal life in order to create something

CK LIN 1:28:58
beautifully said. Thank you Jose for being on the show.

Thanks for having me.


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