In this episode, we talk to Matthew Manos, the Founder and Managing Director of verynice. Since 2008, verynice has built and managed remote design and strategy teams to tackle projects for hundreds of clients. Matthew has recently authored a new toolkit, Make It Remote: A Survival Guide For The Future Of Work, to provide businesses with a road map for taking their business online.

We talked about:

  • The pros and cons of the physical model, hybrid model, and virtual model
  • The mindset shift and tactical shifts to entrepreneurs going through this transition now
  • The importance of defining what success means for you
  • Lessons he learned when he started his business during the 2008 crisis
  • The tactical advice to turn this challenging time into opportunities
    • For gig workers
    • For aspiring entrepreneurs
    • For current business owners
    • For brick and mortar business owners
  • Discerning important/not-urgent decisions and not-important/urgent during the Covid19 crisis
  • His first awakening moment when he first found his purpose



‘Art is the creative process not just the painting hanging on the wall’

Right now, there’s too much uncertainty to have a single anchor

if you’re launching in this kind of environment right now, my advice to you is to I kind of see that as a as a godsend to be able to actually work ON the business in and find that unique voice for yourself and make that happen.

I’m not going to get trapped in my typical reactionary mindset. And I’m going to think about the future.

If you’re constantly reacting to right now, you’ll never be able to actually see that future. And if you can see that as an opportunity to say “Oh, by thinking my purpose, I actually am laying the groundwork to be able to actually do this to actually kind of change that path for myself”

When you’re starting your company, really take the time to reflect what does success mean to you? Don’t let other people define what success mean for you.

A painting is hung when the person decides to stop stroking the brush, right, but the actual art is in stroking the brush. When I go to a museum, when I stand in front of a painting and I try not to see the painting, I try to see the hand in front of the canvas that made it

‘Lost’ is wandering around aimlessly and not sure when you’re going to go back home; ‘exploring’ is choosing to leave your home and choosing to to be lost but knowing that you have somewhere to come back to.

[On finding purpose] look at all of the activities, all the things on your plate, and ask yourself, what is the source of each of these things? What is the thing that is motivating you to do each of these things?


CK LIN 0:00
Welcome back to Noble Warrior. My name is CK LIN. This is the place where we talked about the pursuit of success and fulfillment and building purpose driven organizations. Today’s guest is Matthew Manos. Matthew is the Founder and Managing Director of verynice. Since 2008. verynice has built and manage remote design in strategy teams to tackle projects for hundreds of clients. Matthew has recently authored and new toolkit, “Make It Remote”, a survival guide for the future of work to provide businesses with the roadmap for taking their business online, giving the current covid19 virus. A lot of business owners are going from brick and mortar physical locations to virtual overnight. Given that we had talked about a few things we talked about the pros and cons of the physical model, the hybrid model, the virtual model. We had talked about The mindset and tactical shifts that need to happen for entrepreneurs going through this transition right now. We’ also talked about tactical advice to turn this Covid19 challenge into opportunities 1)for gig workers, 2)for aspiring entrepreneurs who are starting a business right now in this time, 3)who already have a business, as well as 4)the brick and mortar business, who has a physical location are now looking for new ways to stabilize and maintain their brick and mortar business.

For any of you who requires support to remain calm amongst the external chaos. I have a mini-course that I’m offering here, go to Alright, let’s get started.

I’m really excited today to have Matthew Manos here with us. He is the Managing Director of a design agency called verynice. He’s also the assistant dean for USC. And he’s a speaker. He is an author. I’m excited to have him on our podcast today, mainly because giving the coronavirus events happening right now a lot of business owners are struggling to turn their brick and mortar business to work from home business. So Matthew’s been doing this for quite some time. So he has a lot of wisdom and tactical that he can share with business owners. So thank you so much for being here, Matthew.

Yeah, thanks for having me. CK. It’s a pleasure to be here.

CK LIN 2:45
If you don’t mind, give us a little bit of a background little backstory of why, how long have you been doing this virtual office format?

Absolutely. So, so there’s kind of a few interesting stories to that. You know, very nice. That’s the name of my company. It’s a design strategy practice. So we work with clients all over the world. And just in that very fact, you know, from day one, we’ve worked with people over the internet, that’s really been the big story throughout, whether that’s through email, or as the more interesting technology like slack and like zoom has, has come about, you know, we started to embrace that. But, you know, I founded the company when I was in college, and I found that I was really needing a lot of help to work on these projects from people who were experts in things that I was not. And I was meeting those people over the internet and actually collaborating with them over the Internet to get this work done for people. As time went on, you know, the team did grow and we went sort of that traditional path that you might think where we have a traditional office, we have a staff, people in there, etc. And then actually in the last year, we ended up moving company to a remote model. So I’ve been doing that, you know, almost entirely focus for the company in the last year, which has been really amazing.

CK LIN 4:10
So quick interjection, you actually went through the transition from the traditional model to a completely virtual model. Yeah,

exactly. And in very traditional at one point, we actually had three offices. We had offices in LA and New York and in Austin. And, you know, we realize that so many people that we collaborate with are based just so happens not in proximity to us. And you know, why, why limit it to that? Right. So, that was kind of a big moment for us.

CK LIN 4:41
So, having gone through that transition, what did you learn? What were the pros and cons of the completely physical model? And what were the pros and cons of the hybrid model? And what are the pros and cons of the completely virtual model?

Unknown Speaker 4:58
Yeah, great question. So You know, there’s well so there’s a lot of pros to being completely in person, you know. So I’ll start with that. And when I say pros, I mean,, these are things that are easier, right? So it’s easier to have this sort of sense of community and bonding with the team, right? You can all go out for lunch together, you can grab drinks after work together, you can hang up some fun art in the office, right? And that can kind of be an indicator of the company’s culture of what it’s what is it like to be someone that’s part of verynice, all of those things that a lot of people really want in a position or in a job. You know, some of the cons though, with working in person is as a company that hires a lot of people who are work as volunteers or as contractors on different projects. You know, those people are based all over the place. And so here we are, with this kind of small staff and then this whole world has collaborators that can’t be in that office with us. So there’s already that kind of divide in terms of access and who it is that you know, we can literally sit next to versus working online with

CK LIN 6:16
So quick interjection there. So sort of the cons of being a completely physical office is if I’m hearing You’re right, the talent pools quite limited to maybe 15 miles radius of the physical office, is that very accurate?

Okay. Exactly. Exactly. And, and you know, and also, when you think about a physical office, we’ve had some employees that had longer commutes, for example, and now that is causing stress right on that employee, that’s also not great for the environment, it’s causing more carbon emissions. So all of those kinds of things as well.

CK LIN 6:53
I think there was a study that I came across that says if you commute more than really 45 minutes, I think was the cutting off point in in anything more than 45 minutes. your quality of life just drastically drops?

Yeah, it’s so true, you know, and I’ve had some, you know, experiences where I had commutes longer than that. And, gosh, it’s so hard. You know, I’ve been really lucky that even when we did have physical offices, I’ve actually been able to live about a block or two from them. And so so, you know, I’ve always reward really worked hard to reduce my commute. And when I was first able to do that, what I found is I was almost giving myself an hour and a half to two hours of my life back and I was able to start writing more I was able to start drawing more, you know, sleeping in an extra 15, 30 minutes, right, these little things make a huge difference.

CK LIN 7:53
It does. It really does. I mean, some people may say 15, 20 minutes, is not a big deal, but it is is a big deal. If you really think about that times, let’s say 50 weeks out of the year, and that times for 10 years, let’s say you’re in business for a long time, it really adds up quickly.

So yesterday I had a quick conversation, then we’ll jump into the hybrid model. Okay. Yes. Yesterday I had a conversation with a friend we were discussing the pros and cons of being physical to now he’s forced to be in virtual. And it’s one of those things that we normally don’t pay attention to, is that this the micro-moments is the, at the coffee place, or the water cooler place, or by the bathroom, or were you waiting in line to do something. Those micro-moments of “Hey, what are you working on? Oh, I’m working on this. And then the other thing.” Those are the micro-moments that add up to the culture of a place, right. So having been the physical place really helps with those micro-moments.

Unknown Speaker 8:59
absolutely anything You know, the really funny thing and it’s it This might have happened with your friend.

We often if we’ve been used to working in an office, we often take that kind of stuff for granted, we might not even know, oh, yeah, I do miss that, right? These are these kinds of little subtle things about work that really does kind of drive you and make you motivated.

And so you know, what I would kind of say to that is a lot of people, almost everybody at this point, who’s now forced to work from home, you know, kind of look for the indicators and the things that you’re missing about that physical workspace, and then think, how can I recreate that? You know, we know that you can’t literally do it, right. You can’t install a water cooler in your apartment and call all of your colleagues over to come and talk with you. But can you have a water cooler channel in slack? Right where people kind of do that. Can you have a Zoom Room Open at lunch just had people eat with me, right? You know how what can you do to sort of recreate those moments that turn out were really important to you?

CK LIN 10:11
Mm hmm. I like that. So let’s hold on to the tactical action steps for the transition. Let’s go to the hybrid model pros and cons first. So now that you’ve done the completely physical three offices in New York, and all those places now, transition to a hybrid model. What are some of the pros and cons of both virtual and physical at the same time?

Yeah. So So when you’re looking at hybrid, you know what something that we did this was part of our kind of greater transition is we had some time where we had some employees who were working remote partially because of having a longer commute, some that were coming into the office, the same regular hours, and then that kind of transition to work from home Wednesday. You know, all of this before we went in completely remote. And what I found is that when we had a more hybrid model, there was this sort of real pro of being able to have that kind of connection with each other. And actually, in fact, even now with us being

CK LIN 11:14
why do you say that? say more about that.

Yeah, so we see this, we see this real pro of being able to connect in person, and to kind of balance that with the remote work. And what I mean by that is, you’re really putting a face to, to a virtual face, you know, and you’re being able to have those kinds of sidebar conversations you’re being able to do in our case with design strategy, you know, get the post, it’s up on the wall workshop things together, you know, that that kind of stuff that is super valuable, as well.

CK LIN 11:48
Mm hmm. And the cons of having a hybrid model would be what?

Yeah, so the cons would be that if some people are coming into the office, you know, every day and some people are working remotely Every day, it can feel like to alienated cultures that, you know, oh, this person’s missing out on this, this person’s missing out on that. And, you know, when people feel left out that that can cause sort of emotional stress as well.

CK LIN 12:17
Not to mention you’re paying for the office that a lot of times is not being used, right? . And technically speaking, it is expensive.

Well, and it’s amazing, you know, that’s something that when we went fully remote, and, you know, what I realized was how much money actually it costs to have a space. I mean, you’re not even just thinking of the rent, that’s probably the first thing that people think of but there are so many other things like the cost of internet or, you know, toilet paper or stocking the fridge or materials or all these little things that you know, kind of add up as time goes on.

CK LIN 12:56
Okay, so now you transition to a fully virtual Work Environment, what are the pros and cons of a fully virtual working environment?

So the pros absolutely are flexibility. In terms of you know, it’s less about the hours worked and more about the, the sort of quality of the work that’s done in general. The other Pro is really opening up the, the pool of people that we can collaborate with, because this is happening in a lot of industries. But in the design industry in particular, a lot of people are going freelance, you know, and a lot of people are going independent with the work that they do. They weren’t interested in coming into an office or becoming an employee or whatever that might be. And now, you know, we can actually work with those type of folks a lot more as well. So those would be some of the pros.

CK LIN 13:51
And the cons would be

so the cons You know, it kind of comes with all of that right and something you know, that I think is Really interesting when people go remote for the first time is realizing all the little details of the in person that they kind of miss. Right. So things like the side jokes, things like eating lunch with your colleagues, things like just kind of decorating your, your little desk, right or your kind of space. And so those are things that at first glance a while I know we’ll probably get to talking about solutions to those, you know, can be real let downs as well.

CK LIN 14:33
Yeah, for sure. I mean, one of the things that I anticipate because I’ve been working from home for a long time already so I’m quite used to this there’s the internet meme with the with a guy kind of having a side look saying your normal lifestyles, considered to be self quarantine and he kind of looked away. I don’t know if you saw that mean?

Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, I was like, yeah, that’s me.

CK LIN 14:56
This is totally normal for me.

That’s so funny.

CK LIN 14:59
But one of the things I anticipate having gone through the physical office to hybrid to virtual completely working from home, what I anticipate is that people would, #1, they appreciate this the freedom, but also, they will go through some kind of a grieving process almost, of not having the physical contact, because we are social animals after all. And when you are sitting at home by yourself in isolation, when you are all all you’re doing staring your kids or your spouse, that you can only do so much of that, right you want to be in communication with your colleagues and talk about things that you know that you want to talk about.

So that’s one thing that I anticipate if we don’t actively reach out having that social connection, virtually. They will go into a state of depression almost.

So, having done all of this, what would you say to the business owners who are in that transition right now from from physical to now completely virtual? What are some the mindset shift that they that they need to think about? Before we jump into the actual tactical things,

then? Yeah, well, so So I would say for for a manager for a business owner, there’s there’s so many things to be thinking about. But the real number one thing is changing your philosophy around management. In general.

you know, it’s very easy when you have an office to say, Oh, hey, you know, is Jane here on time, right? It’s it’s nine o’clock and hits. It’s, it’s 430. Why are people gone? Right? There’s kind of this easy visible, okay, people are here. They’re working. They’re leaving. They took a long lunch, they took a short lunch, you can see all of that, right? And the ability to see that is almost completely gone, right? People can be logged in on different, you know, chat channels or going to meetings, things like that. But the real granular aspect of that kind of visibility is more challenging for a manager.

So, you know, the biggest kind of recommendation that I make is to change their mindset from, “hey, how many hours have you worked today? To Hey, did you finish your assignments for the day?” Right? And, you know, that’s because some people when they’re going to work from home, what you sort of have to be prepared for is there’s going to be people that are early birds like me, you know, and they’re starting doing their things at six and, you know, then they take a few hour break in the middle of the day, and then they kind of get to the rest of it by five like everybody else, but everybody’s going to be different, right? So, so you know, this is a very hard thing for me. Managers when they’re just getting used to this transition, because, you know, very often they’re not used to kind of setting a clear scope of work or thinking of things as a project as opposed to as about time. And so that that’s something that I think takes quite a bit of adjustment.

CK LIN 18:18
So in theory, right, I’m speaking from a place of someone who haven’t done those who have who is actually in fearful of…

actually, let me bring an example. So I was speaking to entrepreneur, who’s at an office physically, and then he is being forced to do a completely virtual setting right now, because of the Covid19 crisis happening. So his complaint is that everyone is watching Netflix and everyone is under-performing. “productivity has gone down to shit” those are his words. So what would you say to that person? having gone through the other side actually are able to maintaining productivity, perhaps even heightened productivity?

Well, I think it’s all about having very clear expectations on a couple of things. So one is clear expectations around your work from home policy. Right? A lot of people I mean, you know, so many business was were just thrown into this. They don’t have a policy around it. They don’t have guidelines, they don’t have anything. Right.

So setting some parameters around what does “work from home for our company” look like, right? Do we have that flexible range of just get your stuff done? And we’re cool, or is it “No, you log in to slack at 9am? You log out of slack at 5pm,” right? You know, what, what are kind of your parameters. So that would be one thing. The other thing that I think is really important is Thinking about how is it that you actually assess productivity? Right. And this kind of goes back to something I said earlier, around, less about hours worked more about deliverables made, right. And so if you’re going to do that you actually, as a manager need to say, this is the deliverable. This is what’s expected of it. These are the resources we have available for you. This is the effort that we think it will take, and this is the due date. Right?

And if they don’t meet their due dates, just like if they didn’t meet a due date, or if they skipped out on a bunch of meetings in person, you know, there’s repercussions for that and there has to be that kind of clear understanding between the manager and the team so that they they get that done.

CK LIN 20:49
Do you have any books or resources to send them to, as they think about more of instead of measuring effort or time, you measure throughput and deliverable, right. Yeah, many specific resources or books that you can help them kind of wrap their head around and concretize that even more?

Well, you know, I think that there’s actually quite a lot of talk around this in the design community. So this is something that designers are very used to is sort of project based work, right. And same with freelancers also. So this might sound like a strange recommendation, because it’s not necessarily a management book.

But as a manager, if you actually look up some of the resources online for freelancers around, how do you set a scope of work with your client, right, you can actually use a lot of those same tactics with your employees, even though you’re not the intended audience. I actually think that would be one of the most useful things.

no, no specific book, but just blog blog posts. There’s so much information out there. I think the AI ga is a great resource for that, which is a graphic design Association. But there’s, there’s so much of it if you kind of work at Google, you know, Freelancer scope of work clients, you’ll find so many things.

The other thing too, you know, just to do a little shameless plug, we just put out a couple of really helpful resources that are based on, you know, kind of developing and managing remote teams over the last 12 years. That it’s called “make it remote.” And I’m sure we’ll we’ll provide the link, you know, as part of this post, but, you know, we put out a survival guide for the future of work, basically. So how is it that you can think about some of these management techniques, how can you create that work from home policy, and just what does it take to sort of do this? Funny enough, now we’re being forced to do it, but you know, this can also be good for thinking about long term as well.

CK LIN 23:03
Given that topic, let’s let’s, let’s talk about it. Yeah. What do you from my point of view, so the Chinese word for crises there is danger and there’s an opportunity. that’s what it is. The way I think about it is it’s it’s a great forcing function for all of us to rethink how we work.

So future work. What do you think? How this cobit 19 coronavirus is forcing us to step into the future of work. What do you think the future of work is?

It’s really fascinating question you bring up, so I think before I get into what I think the future of work is, I think talking a bit about Cova 19. And maybe the the more near future, right?

What’s happening now is not a new conversation. There’s been so much Talk about remote work work from home. There’s been demand for that for years. Right? But what’s happening right now is absolutely everyone, including the naysayers are forced to actually experience it. Right?

So you might have been working for a company where, you know, the boss said, Oh, I would never do that. Right? They, you know, I mean, it’s reasonable to not want to do that, that that’s completely fine. That might continue to happen.

But they now where they hadn’t before, get to try it. And kind of the funny thing is, I think we’re in that stage this sort of past week where people are sort of goofing off a little like sort of figuring it out, you know, but if this goes on for as long as some people think, I think people will actually learn to be productive and learn to adapt as, as we all do, you know, as kind of creative human beings right?

And What that’s going to do, and this is sort of my warning flag to the to the managers out there, it’s going to make employees realize that that meeting could have been an email, or, oh, you said that my job wouldn’t really function while at home, but I did it right. And it’s going to be hard to it’s going to be hard to go fully back to in person, I gotta be honest, right?

With the amount of people that will be experiencing this. I am not saying that every company is going to go remote now and or that every company should. But I am saying that pretty much every company is going to have an employee knocking on the door saying, Hey, I kind of want to work from home one day a week, right?

And you’ll know how to do that now. And you’ll kind of look bad if you say no, to be honest, if they’ve got the good proof, right. So So that’s kind of a perspective on Covid19 in particular,

I know you’re bringing up future of work to, you know, to me future of work, as, as a lot of people mentioned is about kind of that that flexibility is about project based, not time base. But it’s also about thinking kind of more long term and seeing how the gig economy has developed. It’s also about having many different roles, or many different hats.

And, you know, this is a pretty stark difference from, you know, my parents generation, your parents generation of, you’re in a role, right? And you stay there because you’re trying to get the benefits you’re trying to go up the ladder, etc.

And we’re already seeing signals of that kind of not being a thing anymore. You know, younger employees hopping between jobs every year every other year. Holding multiple positions as freelance answers right driving Uber by night, you know, and I think that we’ll see more of that as well, this sort of spread the spread out, kind of kind of worker.

CK LIN 27:12
Hmm. So one of the things that I see on the social web is a lot of gig economy workers are really, really concerned about their, their stable income. So what have you seen as a way to help counteract that because, on the one hand, have this freedom that being a gig worker provides, they’re also oftentimes one of the first being cut, right? You as a contractor or, you know, a part time employee or even full time employee. So what have you seen or what would you advise to your audience Who are full time gig workers and they’re freaking out right now? What would you say to them?

Well, you know, one thing I would say is, is to diversify your gigs, right? So if you are, you know, if you’re let’s say you’re a freelance graphic designer, I have a lot of people, you know that that I work with that, that fall into that category.

And you have one client, and they’ve been a great client, you’ve had them for years. They pay well, right? They’re your anchor. Right now, there’s too much uncertainty to have a single anchor. Right. So I would say one of the first things that you can try to do is have 10 acres, as overwhelming as that sounds, trying to diversify, that would be smart.

On top of that, though, on top of providing those services and seeing that as an income stream, you know, can you can you jot down some of your tips and tricks into a toolkit that you put online, you You charge people for? Can you make a icon library that you put online and charge people for? Can you make an online course? You know, can you do all of these different things, realizing that we’re in this time of uncertainty, not one of those is gonna do enough for you, right? But collectively, it can do enough. The good news is that a lot of those ideas, I just, you know, shout it out, are passive as well, because what you don’t want is to be working so many jobs that you’re exhausted, you get burnt out, you end up not liking what you’re doing right now, none of us want that. But that’s something to kind of keep in mind.

The other thing I would say, you know, on the contractor note, maybe less on the gig economy side, but more on, you know, people like me, who might own a small agency or something like that. I launched in 2008, during the recession, and I think in many ways, it was was because of the recession, that we’re still here. Right?

So, so one of those reasons, what was really fascinating during the recession is many of the companies that may have had in house design teams or in house marketing teams, etc. were laying those people off so that they could hire agencies or consultancies instead.

And what that did is it saved them money on payroll tax on health insurance, all of those things. So you might if you just hang in there, have an opportunity actually to be able to still survive and actually welcome some of those people who may lose their jobs in the next couple of years to your company.

A really fascinating thing happened you know, not just with my company, but with a couple others is many of the designers who, you know, had been in the company for a while, and were ready for their next thing. moved into in house, in house positions at big companies. And that is, to me always a sign of a good economy when a company is building their own in house creative teams. So we might be seeing a shift back to kind of the agencies or the studios in the next couple of years. Mm

CK LIN 31:23
hmm. So many ways to follow up with this. Let’s see how I can break it down. So let’s say I’m that gig worker, right? If I’m hitting right, some of the ways prioritize this, instead of just here’s a buffet of things that you could do.

1) Some of the ways to prioritize this is, hey, you have one client, and now figure out a way to reach out to your other VIP clients potentially and then create more anchors that way you can diversify your income source, right. So that’s the first and foremost because they know you, they really trust you. You can actually help them and provide more value for those prospective clients, that’s one.

2)The second thing is figure out ways to productize your expertise, your knowledge, in courses in libraries in whatever it is that you do in audio courses, minii courses and things like that.

3)And on top of that, you didn’t say this and want to add to that is, this is also a time potentially, to educate your prospective clients on your skill sets. So you can actually productize your expertise, knowledge into things that you can actually give away. Right. Case in point, our podcasts like this is a productized version of our knowledge and expertise as resource for anyone else out there who may be seeking what you have to offer here. Yeah,

absolutely. And you know, the other great thing right to try to always see the glass half full is that many of you are going to have more spare time than you have before. Right. And so how can you use that spare time in a really smart way? A colleague of mine was kind of joking, but also seriously saying that, you know, by the end of the year, we’re going to see more academic papers and we’ve ever seen before, right? There’s going to be all of this time that can be put into content, you know, or we’re going to see a lot more podcasts opening up, we’re going to see a lot more online courses a lot more, you know, bloggers like all of that, I think, will really have a renaissance with all this time that we have. And, you know, you can kind of sit there and just read that stuff and say, shoot, I wish that I had a job right now, right? Or you can kind of be proactive and see doing that as a way to get that next opportunity as well. I think it’s a great way to use your time

CK LIN 33:50
for sure. So having been through the 2008 crises, and then now you’re on the other side. What would you say was the biggest learning? You know, from having gone through that to where we are right now, for somebody who was going through this the first time?

Yeah. Well, and you know, the funny thing is, is aside from even going through it, it’s literally the year I started my company. Right. So, so I think I have some thoughts for people that might be starting a company right now. Right. And I think that’s a lot of people who are doing it literally right now, because of maybe a job situation that changed or just by chance, you know, feel like oh, shoot, I had bad luck in my timing, right.

CK LIN 34:38
or the perfect luck.

or the perfect luck. Exactly.

And, you know, it’s something that I mentioned briefly earlier is I don’t, I kind of don’t think that we would be here today, if I hadn’t started it during the recession, actually. And I you know, I gave a reason around, just kind of how the workforce changed and all of that, but

But another reason which I think aligns really well, you know, CK to your whole vision for the podcast around purpose as well, is that when I launched the company, I was not my all my expectations change, right? It wasn’t, oh, cool, we’re in a booming economy, I’m going to get a million clients and I’m going to get an office and I’m going to grow and I’m gonna, you know, all these kind of typical views of success, we’re just totally off the table, right?

And instead, what I really did is I took the time to slowly kind of grow this business to spend a lot of time thinking about the brand, our story, our vision, our purpose, right? All of those things that typically when you are very busy working inside the business, you can’t work on the business. And so if you’re launching in this kind of environment right now, my advice to you is to I kind of see that as a as a bit of a godsend to be able to actually work on the business in and kind of find that unique voice for yourself and make that happen.

CK LIN 35:32
I love that. Perfect that you mentioned that because noble warrior who I am what I’m about as all about purpose. Yeah.

if you think about the quadron urgency versus importance, right. Some people are in the urgency importance area where they’re saying to me CK, I need to put out this fire. My business is about to go under. I need to put food on the table for my family. Don’t talk to me about purpose. it’s it’s too much of a luxury right. Now. Let me put on my fire first,

on the surface, it’s actually contradictory to what you just said. And what I’m trying to say right on the surface. So what would you You say to someone who’s saying, hey, everything’s on fire right now, I can’t even think about purpose. Let me just think about survival. First, before you talk to me about this idealistic things that I really want to talk about, but I just don’t have that luxury to talk about right now.

You know, it’s kind of like a saying, that a lot of people have if they’re thinking of having kids, for example, where, you know, somebody will always say, There’s never a good time, right? Like, it never feels like the right time, you know, I can save a little bit more, I can have a little bit of a bigger house, you know, there’s always an excuse to not do something that you know, you really want to do right for that as an example.

So what I would say to that person is you can easily sort of be distracted by all of the things you have to react to, and and some of those absolutely need your attention, right. I’m not I’m not saying you know, you should ignore the burning Home, right? Some of those need your attention. But there will always be one of those things at some kind of scale.

So how can you when you’re kind of, you know, facing this, these challenges or these these hoops that are in front of you? How can you kind of step back and say, You know what, I’ve seen that hoop before. I’ve seen that challenge before. I’m not going to get trapped in my typical reactionary mindset. And I’m going to think about the future. And to me, you know, there’s a lot of definitions of purpose. But I think a big thing with purpose is it’s very tied to the future, right? It’s very tied to where you want to go, and where you want to end up or what what world you want to inhabit, right. And so, if you’re constantly reacting to right now, you’ll never be able to actually see that future. And if you can see that as an opportunity to kind of say Oh, by thinking My purpose, I actually am laying the groundwork to be able to actually do this reaction right now, you know, to actually kind of change that path for myself. You know, it’s a good mindset shift to attempt to adopt. Hmm, I love that.

CK LIN 39:15
Thank you. I know exactly you speaking my language and is speaking to the choir for sure. The way I’ve articulate to anyone listening to this and then who are grappling with this question about putting out fires, you know, for survival versus thinking ahead.

purpose in my, the way I teach my audience is that there is different levels of purpose. Purpose is a directionality thing. There’s the greatest purpose that is your life, what is your life for, and maybe right now, giving what’s happening, this purpose is to provide for your family. That’s what it is, that’s totally okay. But still maintain the directionality of where you want to go your life, your business relationship. So far.

So that’s one way to think about it. The second way to think about it to think about this as an existential crisis. I mean, it is an existential crisis for mankind from you know, if you be pessimistic about it, and or a existential crisis for your business, potentially, right.

So it’s the perfect opportunity to actually think about how I’ve been doing my business and running my life put me in this position, or I’m scrambling, right.

So how can I think ahead, such that I’m not in this positions scrambling again, right. That’s another way to think about it. I’m not being dis compassionate about it. But this is another way to use this perfect opportunity to actually think about this.

And how I will concretize it personally is, I don’t have to think about all these things at at Same time, I can actually break out parts of my day, hey, from this time to this time putting out fires, but this time this time is self reflection is you actually think ahead, so on and so forth. So you can actually quantize how you manage your time. What do you say to that? How do you actually manage your own mental space your mind share?

Yeah, no, I think those are really great points. So to your point of scheduling time, that is completely something that I adopt. You know, I, I’m a big believer in waking up early and doing work early, because what you can do is you can get to the things that you can predict, right? Because when everybody else wakes up, they bring the unpredictability with them, you know, and so what I try to do is I know in advance, right, the day before I set some goals on my calendar, I block off some time, and it tends to be you know, maybe sometimes as early as 16. I mean, luckily not that early as much anymore. But you know, seven to 10am of things that I’m like, Okay, I’ve got to get to this stuff, right? Then typically by 10, that’s when the world brings all of their unpredictability. And so if I can have some of that time to get to the things that I’ve planned, it really helps me. On the flip side, I do try to schedule time to write or to reflect on my long term goals, the vision for the business, what kind of, you know, project do I want to take on next, all of that very important, then when you do some of this time boxing practice of, you know, this is 30 minutes, this is what’s happening, really, you know, treat that religiously, where you’re saying, I’m, I don’t even care looking at my phone right now. Like I am doing this project, right. And you will get it done somehow. It always works, you know, and I think that that’s so helpful just to give yourself the space for that.

CK LIN 43:01
I love that. Thank you. So knowing everything that you know now, what? So we talked about a little bit how, what you did back in 2008 12 years ago, while 12 years ago. Wow, man, time flies. What you did, which is to grow slower, more organically and think about conscientiously what the brand stands for what your purpose is, right? And would you give that advice to someone who’s starting the business right now?

I would, and I would put it in, I would put it in this way. So I would say, you know, there’s so much pressure. When you launch a business, you go to a conference, you meet someone, the very first question they ask you, when they find out they started a company is Oh, how big is your team? As always, always the first question and that and then what we see kind of business owners portrayed as in movies, what you see you know, people posting on social media, all of this stuff, it’s so tempting to basically say, Oh my god, I’m not successful if I don’t have this team, these offices, this, the clients, all this stuff, but honestly, you know, as someone that has had all of those things, I can tell you that those were some of the years of my business that I felt kind of less satisfied, actually. Because I felt like I wasn’t able to, you know, work on projects myself or actually do the things that, you know, I, I started this thing to be able to do.

So, you know, all that to say, when you’re starting your company, really take the time to reflect what does success mean to you? And part of that, you know, to your point is thinking about purpose, but I think it kind of runs parallel. You know, what is success to you? Is that all those things? That’s great, right? That’s awesome. Perfect, right? But don’t let other people define what success is for you. That is something I wish that someone would have told me earlier for sure. And, you know, to an extent I, I kind of had intuition for that. But I admittedly got very caught up in sort of the typical, you know, image of success and wanted to align myself with that. And I think that the period that I was doing that I think was such a waste of time, I think that I should have been really focusing on what success means to me first, and then kind of moving accordingly.

CK LIN 45:38
So on that note, that’s actually perfect that you talked about that because part of my ways to help people to find their purpose is actually designing that exactly. So, can you walk us back to your journey of how you find your success was it through just meditation By yourself in a cave. Was it through journaling? Like tactically? How did you come closer and closer to knowing what that is for you, Matthew?

Yeah, so so I’ve, I’ve done that in a few ways. And I think maybe maybe one of these might be helpful for somebody listening. You know, the first thing that I did when I was much younger, is I wrote a biography for myself from the future, right, like, you know, think of like a Twitter bio, not not like a book, you know, short bio, from the future. And that was so interesting, as an exercise basically to say, hey, in 10 years, you know, what am I doing? Right, and kind of being able to visualize that was helpful for many reasons, but that was that was one tactic that I used,

CK LIN 46:52
you write it one time, or is it more of an iterative process?

It’s an iterative process. Yeah. But the very First time I did it, I’ll say that was the most impactful time for me. Because as a business owner, you know, you’re just getting started out, you know, writing a kind of blurb of a headline of what you look like in 10 years. First of all, you’re accepting that you’re going to be doing this in 10 years, you know, and so to me actually just writing it, it’s funny, it wasn’t any kind of agreement or anything. It was the first time that I imagined Oh, I’m, this is what I’m doing, you know, like, this is gonna work out is the first time I ever imagined that. And so, to me, yes, it is iterative. I think it’s great to do it more than once, but I think, savor that first time and do it when you feel ready, you know, to kind of actually accept that as well. So yeah, so that would be one bit of advice.

The other which I think is maybe, you know, maybe more common, but I do a lot of kind of reflection. So whether that is, you know, something that looks like meditation or, or drawing, you know, mindfulness kind of activities to think about what I’m what I’m doing and where I want to go, that’s something that’s become much more of a norm for me as well in these in these recent years. So I highly recommend that

CK LIN 48:24
any specific frequencies that you do it.

So, you know, I actually used to do meditation every day. And unfortunately, I do it in that in the kind of way of actually sitting a lot less now and the way that it sort of makes itself enter my life is through drawing. So pulling out a piece of paper and just kind of doodling aimlessly the whole time. I’m thinking, right and so to me that I found that works pretty well. And yeah, as much as possible. I don’t schedule it surprisingly because I schedule, literally everything else. But I kind of let it happen. Sometimes it’s in the morning, sometimes it’s at lunch, sometimes it’s in the evening while I’m watching TV, you know?

CK LIN 49:11
when the spirit moves you.


CK LIN 49:14
Hmm. Are you how do you cultivate actually? So speaking on spirit? I don’t know if you’re religious or not. But how do you cultivate that inner awareness?

Yeah. Wow. That’s, that’s interesting,

CK LIN 49:28
especially for what you do, right. Youre a creative, you’re a designer, you are a business owner, right. I don’t know if you ever watch Elizabeth Gilbert’s talk. Her conception of the Muse is that she’s a conduit. She has a channel and then the spirit comes through her and moves through her hand that way. So again, not to get into religiousity here, but I’m curious how do you cultivate your inner awareness?

Yeah, fascinating question. So So I think it’s in a number of ways, but I think maybe the most, the thing that’s been most profound for me is art actually. Whether that’s making art or standing in front of a painting, specifically a painting.

A very important artist to me growing up was Frida Kahlo. I was actually very sick in high school to the point where I was sort of stuck in bed a lot and couldn’t really go to school and had all these issues. And around that time, I learned about Frida and I learned about the artwork that she made from looking at a mirror on her ceiling to be able to paint her own self portraits. And that there’s, I don’t think anything in my life has moved me as much as learning that story in high school. And so when

CK LIN 50:50
that was like a awakening moment, almost,

it was because it basically taught me that no matter what you can create, you know, and you you’re creating your own barriers no matter what, right? Like, there’s always the trick to put the mirror on the ceiling. Like there’s always something. And, and so, you know, to be honest when I go to a museum, especially if it’s her work, but I tried to do this with a lot of work is I stand there and I try not to see the painting, I try to see the hand in front of the canvas that made it and that is a really kind of just unbelievable feeling that that I that I get. So I think, you know, going to museums helps me do that. I think creating my own artwork when I can help me do that, as well. But um, yeah.

CK LIN 51:42
Thanks for sharing that. That actually gave me chills just thinking about the all of the conduits, right, all of the hands that yeah, that that did the work, to chisel away anything that’s not them and allow that beauty allow the artistic expression To come to fully such that we can, as other human beings can actually appreciate the beauty that they have, you know, immortalize.

So absolutely. And, you know, a painting is hung when the person decides to stop stroking the brush, right, but the actual art is in stroking the brush. I mean, that’s what I believe it’s actually the process. And so what we’re seeing is, we’re not actually seeing the art, you know, we’re seeing the artifact that was left that was left over. And so you know that that’s something that I’ve believed for for a long time ever since. You know, I was a little kid painting.

CK LIN 52:39
Yeah, you had that realization? How old?

Oh, I mean, I must have been I mean, I was very young. You know, I’ve been painting since I was like two years old, you know, but when I was probably in elementary school, that’s when I was painting a lot and middle school to I found out I found like this kind of weird feeling all of a sudden When I would finish a painting, I wouldn’t want to really look at it anymore, you know, but I was always excited to paint it. Right. And so, you know, that is kind of a very interesting thing that has made its way into a lot of what I do now of like constantly making constantly writing, you know, I love process so much that, to me, that is the point is being in that moment and doing something

CK LIN 53:29
as someone who actually had that drastic shift in thinking about because as a Chinese person, I’m taught to think about outcome. Hmm, you are worthy when you get that a, from a very young age, right.

So so I had to actually unlearn that mindset. And then actually think about the journeys that Yeah, and actually learn to enjoy every step of the way.

Because, as you said, the beauty of our lives. isn’t in the artifacts. I mean, those are nice. Don’t get me wrong, it’s like a milestone. But ultimately, if we can’t appreciate the journey every step of the way, once we get to the top, wherever that milestone is, we’re not going to enjoy it that much anyway. that’s what I’ve learned so I’m so move that you learn that lesson so young.

Well, and you know, but it’s something you can easily forget, there was kind of a really interesting conversation I had I used to teach at art center in Pasadena

a colleague of mine, there who I really respect said that at some point in his business, he he stopped kind of celebrating the the wins or or the fun parts. And when when that happened, it felt like every achievement or every, you know, thing that he used to love was the same thing as every low point. Like there was they weren’t really differentiated to him and and I thought that was just such a profound reflection that, you know, to the point that’s a little bit contradicts what we’re talking about. But, you know, enjoying the process, taking the moment to reflect on the achievement and not just constantly moving to the next thing. I think it’s so important as well.

CK LIN 55:18
I mean brain back to Covid19 a lot of people are freaking out and they’re saying woe is me or why this is happening or you know, playing the resentment blaming game, but to me, we are also seeing just like psychedelics and meditation are challenging times.

challenging times reveals our light and our shadow. to me it’s a multiplier is a catalyst. So it’s really important from my point of view to also enjoy. It’s hard to say that sounds weird, right? But actually pay attention to what it reveals about how you’re reacting to is how you’re acting, how you’re helping how you’re hiding in all of is perfect because all of his part of you, that’s my point of view.

Yeah, no, that’s fascinating. I mean, I think it’s been really interesting because even though you know, I’ve, I’ve had a fairly remote, fairly flexible, you know, scheduled for quite a lot of time. You know, I travel a lot to give talks and do workshops, and all of a sudden, all of that is completely wiped away, right? And that’s something that I love. I’ve loved being able to do that. And for some reason, I’m okay with not doing it right now. You know, and I and it’s very surprising, because that’s something I never thought that I would be able to really give up. And I know I haven’t, you know, for forever, but for months, you know, I that’s not gonna happen, and I’m kind of okay with it. And it’s kind of interesting, like you said, what you sort of learn about yourself in these times.

CK LIN 56:57
Thank you for sharing that. So coming back on the tactical advice for business owners who may be freaking out right now about, oh my god, as you said earlier, my income, half of it is gone, because conferences isn’t happening speaking gigs, and I’m not saying that’s you, but just in general, you know, whatever things is their business being impacted? Do you have any ways to think about this? Or do you advise them tactically to turn this challenge, shall we say into biggest blessing and opportunity?

Well, you know, I would say one thing is get creative, right? So when you think about creativity, the way that I like to define it is sort of making despite constraints, you know, that there’s constraints How can you do something right, that’s creativity. And in what I mean by that is those things that you think you’re going to have to cancel you think your client is going to can’t cancel? How can you still do them, you know, How can you still provide that same value remotely?

Case in point on Monday, I hopped on a call with a client who was going to cancel a big workshop that we’ve been planning for months, and it would have meant losing money, you know, and it would have meant being disappointed because we worked hard on it and all of that. But then I brought up the idea and shared a plan for how we could do the same workshop over zoom in using some of these other tools that a lot of people are, are learning about right now. And they hadn’t even thought about that. yet. Like that didn’t even cross their mind. Right. So and the project, I still have it, we’re still doing it, right. So So how can you kind of get creative and really think about what you can do. Now, I know that being, you know, in the consulting kind of space, I have a lot of different privileges right now than somebody in a product space.

So I think some important advice to people who have products is thinking about, again, what can you do to get creative? If you can’t be in your in your warehouse producing things, shipping things? What else can you do? What talents exist on your team? And how can you leverage that at this time? Right? How can you if you can afford it? How can you use some of this time to work on the business and actually have your team think about the business, the systems, how that can be improved, right?

These are kind of short term investments that might end up making you have quite a big upside when we get out of all of this as well.

And you know, and for anyone that doesn’t have that time to do that, you know, I think what I would say is that there is no shame in doing what you need to do to be able to take care of yourself right now. Right? You’re You’re not a failure. You’re This is not your fault. This is not anybody’s fault. This is something that’s happening to us, right? And so, you know, take if you need to take that break, if you need to start looking for a job, and, you know, scale back to your business right now, it might not be forever, you know, so so I think it’s okay to do that. It’s not a failure at all.

CK LIN 1:00:25
Hmm, actually tactically speaking too, what are some of the questions that you either ask yourself, you advise others such that they can find the biggest opportunity to contribute the greatest value?

MATTHEW 1:00:40
Yeah, so so you know, one thing is basically, kind of putting everything aside of what your business says how you promote it, all of those things, right?

making a list of things. Let’s say it’s five things right? That you and your team are really good at doing. So let’s say for example, you’re in The cosmetic space and you sell, you know hair and makeup product. Is your team really good at creating sort of e commerce solutions? can you offer that as as a kind of, you know, web design service to people? Is your team good at writing copy to sell products? can you offer that as a service? Right? Is your team good at doing product photography? can you offer that as a service or had put out advice on how to do that or create a toolkit or an online course or, you know, all these things that your business was not at all created to do? But you know how to do it, you know, and you make that list and for each of those things, you think, who out there could benefit from this right and who could we possibly sell this to? How can you kind of, you know, just pivot a little bit to think about how you can take the the good of what you have Because it’s not like overnight, all of your skills vanished. Right? We’re just we’re in a different situation. How can you apply those skills in a way? That’s different?

CK LIN 1:02:11
Hmm, let me recap what you said. Yeah, 1) wipe the entire slate clean, starting from nothing. 2)And really take a good look, inventory, all of your competencies. 3)And then think about how can I repackage these different kind of competencies into different offerings a)to perhaps different sets of the market or b)the same market but a different angle? Right. So that way, you can continue to provide that value to the people that you want to serve. Is that an accurate way to reflect back what you just said?

MATTHEW 1:02:46
It’s perfect. Absolutely. No, I think all of that is something that anybody could do. And again, and here I am, I’m not in the product business. I don’t have physical things that I sell. And so I don’t want to be living how challenging of a time it is right now for people in that space. But I hope that these are some, you know, bits of advice of how you might be able to kind of make things work. You know, another thing I’ve seen that’s really interesting I’ve been seeing people(brick and mortar businesses) do is promoting that they’re selling gift cards right now, you know, for future purchases, or especially for restaurants or for people that are cutting hair or for tattoo artists or, you know, these these things that just literally can’t be done online. Right. You know, selling future experiences is something that can be done right now, aside from working on the business and kind of getting creative about it.

CK LIN 1:03:44
Actually, on that note, I’m an eternal optimist. Let me put that out front. I like to see this is a forcing function for us to get creative for us to think you know, outside of the box. No normally wouldn’t think about because you know, normal times people are busy with what they’re already doing what’s already working right. So now this is forces to get creative.

What I’ve seen even martial art schools when they normally wouldn’t even think about ways beyond their physical one to one training or one to many training. Now they’re thinking about how it can virtualize their education to offer to the entire world. It’s hugely transformative.

So even for the hairstylist. Think about ways you can go beyond the one to one service because ultimately in here’s what I want to remind people to think about. If you serve one person at a time, no matter how high of a rate you charge, you’re still trading time for money. Yeah. Right, even if you’re a surgeon, let’s say, right, but if you can turn your expertise into products, then all of a sudden, you’re creating assets. and there is no limit to how much you can actually benefit your prospective clients with your knowledge and your expertise. That’s what I’ll say. Yeah,

MATTHEW 1:05:27
I think that’s great advice. And, you know, the really nice thing is creating those products, what it’s doing, aside from possibly giving you this chance to diversify and scale the income side of it, is it’s forcing you to actually write down your systems and how you do things right. And that will make you even if you continue to be the one to one kind of model better at what you do. And that is so useful, you know, to really know like, let’s say you are you do branding for Right. How do you do that? You know, jotting down your steps is so helpful.

CK LIN 1:06:06
Yeah, actually, jamming on that to the act of describing the your own creative process, how you actually look at problem, how you size them up, what kind of tools do you use, and so on so forth, will allow you to give it away or delegate to junior partners who can actually do the work for you. Right?

It’s also another way to scale who you are versus just having everything depending on you. For for business owners who are 6 figures, 7 figures, let’s say a lot of times the biggest challenge is scaling. This way you just described is a tactical way to scale yourself. Right? Beautiful man. I really really appreciate you sharing this is there anything else that you want to share about

actually You know what? One thing I forgot to ask? Yeah, yeah. So Matthew, you share your journey of scaling this business back in 2008, you share a little bit of even earlier how you had the awakening moment. What was life like?

purpose for you was a more like a light switch, no purpose to having a purpose black and white like that? Or is it more of a gradual elimination to closer and closer to your greater purpose, your higher purpose in life?

MATTHEW 1:07:37
You know, I think I think because I was able to start the company in at a time where I could focus less on immediate growth and immediate reward and more on what I really wanted to do. The purpose came very early for me. It was one of the first things that I sort of established in in the development of the business That purpose then kind of evolve as time went on, but it was something that I feel like I was trying to establish as early as possible. In my case,

CK LIN 1:08:11
now, is that business purpose the same as your personal purpose? Or is it distinct? Is it different?

MATTHEW 1:08:20
I think it’s the same. Yeah. For me. Yeah. For me, the personal and the, in the business purposes is the same. It’s it’s around making, innovation and creativity more accessible for people. And, you know, and, and I, I do that by working with clients. I do that by doing pro bono work by publishing free toolkits, all of that. But in my in my personal life, you know, I do that by trying to create fun moments, you know, with my family or friends to make things or to explore things and, you know, I’m happy I was able to find that bridge. I know it’s not always the case that those are two of the same but it In my case it is.

CK LIN 1:09:02
So the purpose one of those words that people use a lot is very meaningful for the individual, right? But from an outsider’s point of view, we don’t really know what’s the difference of pre purpose versus post purpose. So if you can paint as a picture, if we were to watch your life on a movie screen, pre purpose, what would we see?

MATTHEW 1:09:26
Wow, interesting question. I would say pre purpose, you would see sort of, you know, someone that was feeling a little bit lost around, you know, I’m learning all of these things. And I am kind of liking some of these things. I don’t know who I want to do these things for. I’m not sure where I want to live, what I want to aspire to be, you know, kind of more lost than exploring. I think there’s there’s kind of a fine line between those things more lost than exploring Then

CK LIN 1:10:00
what’s the difference? What’s the difference between the two?

MATTHEW 1:10:03
Well, I mean, I’m going to get to that right now. Sure. So and then post purpose, you know, I think I went from last to exploring. And so so kind of the the bridge there is last is, you know, wandering around aimlessly and not sure, you know, when you’re going to go back home or find what home even is and exploring is choosing to leave your home and choosing to to be lost in a way and but knowing that you have somewhere to come back as well. Hmm.

CK LIN 1:10:37
So post purpose, what will we see on the screen?

MATTHEW 1:10:40
Yeah, so post purpose, I think you would see, you know, well, I think you would literally see me at a computer writing a bunch of things and designing a bunch of things. But I think what you would see is this person that is, you know, going out into the world, traveling, exploring, meeting people and trying to share what I have to offer with as many people as possible.

CK LIN 1:11:04
Um, so if I’m hearing, right, if we were to watch the screen, we won’t necessarily see that much of a difference in the in the so there’s been doing having right in the way of doing things, you won’t see that much of a difference per se. But it’s more of the intentionality of knowing intention or just kind of doing it for the sake of doing it versus doing it now for tours a specific direction that you want to lead your life. Am I accurate to say that?

MATTHEW 1:11:36
Absolutely. Yeah. Basically, in either of those movies, you would see Matthew wandering around, you know, but again, yeah, with one, I’m looking for a home with one I’m intentionally leaving that home. Right. So yeah, I think that’s the simplest way to put it for sure.

CK LIN 1:11:53
Beautiful. I appreciate you sharing your journey with us. Now, is there anything else that For people who are listening to this, what would be the one thing if they’re still listening, and they’re maybe a little uncertain about where they’re at with their business? What would be the one thing that you want to leave them with?

MATTHEW 1:12:16
I think the one thing I would want to leave people with is something around defining success for yourself. And so what I would want to leave you with is for you to look at your business, look at what you’re doing, look at all of the activities, all the things on your plate, and ask yourself, what is the source of each of these things? What is the thing that is motivating you to do each of these things? Is it you? Is it your purpose? Is it your goal in life? Or is it that it’s just what other people are doing? Right? So kind of really dissecting your plate and trying to figure out what is it that you actually like doing and what is it that’s actually getting you closer to that vision of success that you have. That is maybe isn’t typical and maybe doesn’t look impressive to some people, right? What is what is that you know, and really try to find it.

CK LIN 1:13:16
Beautiful. I appreciate this. Matthew, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your journey. In tactical advice to help people we cover a lot of different grounds right to finding their purpose to appreciating the the Covid19 challenge to take their business from completely physical to working from home model completely virtual. Really, really appreciate everything that you share.

MATTHEW 1:13:43
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. CK and thanks for everybody for listening.