Jeff Tkach serves as the Chief Impact Officer for the Rodale Institute. Jeff is responsible for expanding Rodale Institute’s global influence in healing people and the planet by unlocking the transformational power of regenerative organic agriculture.
As Chief Impact Officer, Jeff leads the development and execution of the Institute’s core strategies, overseeing opportunities for partnership and co-investment that drive positive outcomes for Rodale’s philanthropic and programmatic initiatives.
We Talked About
- The origin story of his mission
- The steps he took to come out of his health crisis (due to Lyme disease)
- How he put together a championship team towards wellness (including his selection criteria)
- The difference between a therapist and a spiritual coach
- Reducing the cost of healthcare by how we grow our food
- Agriculture as a spiritual practice (including the micro-steps we can take)
- Regenerative organic agriculture as the solution to the UN sustainable goals
- Does organic agriculture yield truly nutrient-dense food (more than conventional methods)? (hint: yes, 100x higher)
Wisdom QuotesThe best years of my life have always been the years where I slowed down, slowed down to give myself space, to think, to listen, to reflect and to be inspired. And the, and, the worst years of my life historically have always been years… Click To Tweet The very best of us lies in those moments of contemplation, of rest of reflection. And the action should only come out of those moments. You should never force the action from another place of action. Click To Tweet You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay. There is something for you in all of this and something beautiful is going to emerge. You have to trust that you have to trust. Looking back, I probably would have told myself one more… Click To Tweet This is your moment to slow your life down. Let this moment slow your life down. Let it slow you down. Be here with me. The beauty that was all around me. Click To Tweet We all know how we've become separated. And now we need to think about our degrees of reconnection. Click To Tweet We treat agriculture as a spiritual practice and carve out a discipline in our daily doing to reconnect us to source. Allow these new rituals to change you over time. Click To Tweet At the Rodale Institute, we don't measure our success on profits. We measure our success on impact Click To Tweet I know we are all trying to biohack our way to better health, but you can't force the soil to do something it's not designed to do. Click To Tweet If we truly want to be the healthiest, most act self-actualize humans, we do need to slow down. We do need to take time for our nourishment, for our food, and sure. there are convenient ways to have that delivered to our home and to… Click To Tweet I found that regenerative organic agriculture could actually be the solution to 15 out of the 17 goals set forth by the United Nations. Click To Tweet We could heal all of the world's greatest problems simply by changing the way we farm. Click To Tweet
Transcript (By AI)
Reconnect Humans With the Earth, Soil and Soul
Welcome to Nobel warrior. My name is C Kayla, and this is a place where Visioneers talk about my set and consciousness hacking as a way to. Create a life and what position of impact and purpose. So if you're a high performer looking to do the same, you came to the right place.
[00:00:15]I'm really excited to share my next guest with you. His impact officer at the Rodale Institute
[00:00:21]Is really made of his mission to reconnect humans with the earth and to elevate a connection between our soul and the soil
[00:00:31]in this interview, we talked about the seed of his passion towards food.
[00:00:36]We talked about the health crisis he experienced a few years ago and how he was able to climb out of those darker moments in the specific rituals that he did as a way to cultivate. His body, his mind, his heart and spirit to get out of that space to a better spot.
[00:00:55] We talked about the small steps that you can take the course of your relationship with the soil from the most direct. Do the intermediate and to the least direct.
[00:01:06] If you truly want to be the healthiest and most actualized version of yourself, pay attention to what Jeff has to say about the relationship between our capacity to our nutrients.
[00:01:19]Please enjoy my conversation with Jeff batch
[00:01:23] Jeff: [00:01:23] Thank you so much CK. It's an honor, and a privilege to be here with you today.
[00:01:27] CK: [00:01:27] Thank you for being here. Jeff, I'm actually really, excited and for a couple of reasons, one, because I'm on my own path to discover my relationship with food, with my farmers, with the ecosystem and ultimately climate change. And frankly speaking, definitely not quite there yet. Intellectually I'm all there, but in practice, I'm there yet.
[00:01:49] So as someone who is a chief impact
[00:01:51] officer I have a lot to learn from you. So thanks
[00:01:55] Jeff: [00:01:55] for being here. Cool. Let's dive in.
[00:01:58] CK: [00:01:58] Yeah. So why don't we actually do just a little bit of a recap because one thing I noticed your story from a research that you've been on this year. Hero's path hero's journey for healing, you started
[00:02:11] this path and
[00:02:13] very, young, about food and then you start it again. It was a pivotal moment. Again, a few years ago, as you are dealing with your, health challenges, can you share what this, how did you ask these deep questions at such a young age.
[00:02:32] Jeff: [00:02:32] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's it's actually, it's a, it's an emotional experience to, journey back there with you. Growing up, here in Eastern Pennsylvania, about an hour North of Philadelphia as a young child I was really unhealthy, starting around the age of three or four, I, from, the furthest memories that I possibly have. I remember being sick all the time and like going back and forth to the same doctor.
[00:03:00] Starting around the ages of three or four. My mom would take me to the doctor and, I just remember the doctor being a very compassionate person and really doing all that he could to help me, but really what he would ultimately do was prescribe all kinds of medicines. and the symptoms that were emerging were like asthma allergies, all of which led to things like obesity and just this general feeling of lethargy and malaise that was just set in from a young age.
[00:03:29] And I lived like that for many years from about the age of four until about the age of 13 and around the age of 13, I think I was in early eighth grade and sustained an injury. I tried to go out, I tried to go to play sports, thinking that maybe if I threw myself at sports, then I would get healthy, right.
[00:03:48] become fit. And it's about six weeks into the football season. I sustained an injury that completely debilitated me. I broke my ankle. Straight through. Yeah. Straight through two places. Compound fracture. I had to get surgery, brought the short season to an end. And then I ended up like on the couch for six weeks.
[00:04:11] wasn't able to go to school, was laid up with crutches and a cast. And I was at like the lowest point I've ever felt like again, from the ages of four to 13, where they were not. They're not pretty they're there. I remember thinking back and just feeling generally down about myself a lot through that season of my life, but that was like the lowest moment.
[00:04:32] And I decided like enough, I am not going to live this way anymore. And I remember very specifically saying, Hey mom, do me a favor. Next time you go to the grocery store. I want you to buy me a copy of a magazine called men's health. I had just seen an ad on TV. back in the early nineties, remember they used to do those infomercials for, magazines and men's health appeared on the screen.
[00:04:54] So I asked my mom to buy me a copy of men's health and she brought it home. And I remember I read it like cover to cover 10 times. And then I remember I wrote down like all these groceries. I'm like, all right, mom, here's the next time you go back to the store, do me a favor by me, everything that's on this list because I'm going to start eating.
[00:05:11] I thought to myself, okay. If I'm laid up on this couch for the next six weeks, I'm going to get to work. what can I do to start moving my life in a better direction? And I had this Mo this epiphany moment, which was like, it's food. You can control what you eat. And if you put good food into your body, guess what, it's going to speed the healing process.
[00:05:30] It's going to change your mood. It's going to change your mindset. And then when you can get off these crutches, then you'll be much more ready to exercise. So that was really like the, introductory moment. That I think if I think back on it, it was maybe the first real pivotal moment of my life that set me on the course that I'm on today.
[00:05:50] CK: [00:05:50] So pause for a moment because thinking back when I was 13, I don't think about the quality of my food. I just thought about. The taste of my food, maybe the composition at best, and protein, so I can get muscles and things like that versus, and also there are other options. Hey exercise. So I can gain muscles and attract the girls or whatever.
[00:06:15] So, men's health. That's essentially what, you read, why food? All of all other things that the magazines cover.
[00:06:26] Jeff: [00:06:26] I think at that moment it's because I couldn't do anything else. I thought the only thing I can control, the only thing that was in my control was that, which I put on my plate.
[00:06:36] And I also intuitively know, I think it was a gift from spirit that there was something intuitive in my mind as a 13 year old, that said what I had been eating starting at the ages of four to the ages of 13 was likely contributing. To my unhealth, I just had this intuition. It was like a gut feeling okay, all the medicines I've been taking, all of the crappy food that I've been putting in my body have had to be the reason, the catalysts for the way that I feel and look.
[00:07:09] And so if I change those things, if I began to embrace nourishing foods, whole foods, real food. It's got to bring me back to life. It had to, I just had this intuition
[00:07:20] CK: [00:07:20] so minor point, but I think an important one, you live with your family at that time 13, right? And then Jen says, are eating cooked yourself.
[00:07:31] You have to come persuade your mom or whoever to cook for you. And in living in relationship in a. Positive or synergistic relationship with others. How were you able to persuade them again at a young age too? By more better ingredient by probably a little bit more expensive, a little bit harder to find a little bit harder to come by and then also make the change, your lifestyle, dietary, or cooking habits such that you can fulfill your goals.
[00:08:08] Does that make sense?
[00:08:09] Jeff: [00:08:09] Complete sentence. Yeah. And that's, I mentioned, I grew up in a talent with an Italian mother where food was like a religious experience. And so now all of a sudden I'm saying, Hey, Mom, you know what, everything that you've been feeding me, can you stop? Or could you guys, could you maybe make what you're making for the rest of the family, but I want to eat this over here.
[00:08:29] And so that, in and of itself was like a cultural disruption in our household.
[00:08:37] CK: [00:08:37] So how were you able to do that? I'm also asking this question very specifically, because. Chinese family food is a religious experience. Mom loves to cook. This is her craft. This is her currency of love.
[00:08:54] And I'm saying no, and there's a little bit of how can the nine, my currency of love to you. So I'm curious now how you navigated that. And I think for people who are listening, because if you want to make a change, there are also other people in your life. So I'm asking this question also for them as well.
[00:09:13] Jeff: [00:09:13] Yeah. I think saw the desperation in my eyes where she said, wait a minute, we've been trying to inspire our son to get healthy. I remember as a kid, through that period of four to 13, mom and dad were pushing me to go out for the swim team or for the tennis team, or to just try to find some athletic outlet, thinking that.
[00:09:34] That would be the catalyst to get me on a better path. But I think that if anything, that that I had a bit of a confidence issue because I wasn't good at sports and because I didn't feel good, how was I ever going to be an athlete? And so when she finally saw me take the reins and say this is what I want to do.
[00:09:55] I want to focus on nutrition. She said, okay, let's give him a shot. Let's get let's feed that part of him. What's really interesting is my father turned 40 around that same year. I think it was literally the same year. And dad raising three boys the stress of all that. And you started to add a little, weight around the waistline around age 40.
[00:10:19] He had sustained an injury several years prior, so he hadn't been working out, but no kidding, like six months into the whole, my whole journey. My dad says. Okay, I'm going to buy a I'm going to buy some gym equipment for the basement. And by the way, I'm going to start eating like Jeff too. And little by little we saw this sort of transformation of the whole family.
[00:10:38] I actually haven't talked about this before. So it's the first time I'm actually building that association, but my sort of. Convictions around this ended up becoming a catalyst for my parents to embrace it for themselves
[00:10:53] CK: [00:10:53] early changemaker, even for your faculty. I love that. It's true. It's the rippling effect, right?
[00:10:59] Once you make a decision, you're clear about your path, you commit to it and it ripples out to other people. Family Confucianist says self family, country, world, and essentially that's what you did, self
[00:11:14] And then you're working on making that impact in the world as the chief impact officer.
[00:11:21] So could you, so it's one thing to make a lifestyle shift. It's another to really dedicate your life to it. And if you, if I look at everything that you've done, there's that trend line of. This is your path. Can you share with us about how you were able to follow this trajectory through and through?
[00:11:45] Jeff: [00:11:45] Yeah. it was exactly that. Did you ever hear the saying follow the thread? I heard that, phrase. it's, I've been doing a lot of self-reflection this year in 2020 on my own life and doing a lot of journaling and just thinking back, and I'm about to share a story with you that I just recently remembered and shared with my mother and my wife.
[00:12:09] but prior to that, I haven't shared this with anybody, but so my injury happened in eighth grade. Okay. I remembered something that happened, I think around the age of sixth or seventh grade, that also was part of the thread. And I had this amazing science teacher, around that age. I think it was sixth grade, maybe seventh grade, mrs.
[00:12:29] Moussa was her name and she was like a force. She was like the best teacher. And was just inspiring young children to embrace science and as such, she invited every student in the class to answer the Pennsylvania junior Academy of science awards. And I think every student had to part how to at least attempt to submit a project.
[00:12:55] And then there would be a panel of people. I think teachers that would vote on finalists. And then a couple of finalists from each class would go to a regional competition and then the regional competition would progress to a statewide competition. And so I entered and I thought back on what that early research project was.
[00:13:17] And I chose to do a biology experiment where we were taking plants. I forget the type of plant it was, but it was one plant grown in four different soil types. And. Over the course of an eight week period, you had to track how these different soil types had an impact on the health of the plant and the plant's ability to grow.
[00:13:40] And so I, I had this whole plan, this whole experiment. I think one plant was grown in potting soil. Another plant was grown in sand. Another plant was grown hydroponically, just using water. And then I think the third plant was a mixture of outdoor soil mixed with potting soil mix of sand or something like that.
[00:14:01]And would you believe I won the competition regionally and then I got invited to go to the state competition at Penn state university and won a scholarship, like a small scholarship, but who would have ever thought that 30 years later I'd be running a global institution that study soil health, but it just dawned on me that may have been the first thread.
[00:14:26] CK: [00:14:26] Yeah. when those moments happens, when the dots connect. And the aha moment of, Oh my God, I've been on this path all along. Meanwhile, I've been searching everywhere else, but actually looking back, in the rear view mirror. So what was it like for you when that moment happened?
[00:14:46] Jeff: [00:14:46] when I, discovered that when I, or
[00:14:48] CK: [00:14:48] discover the association, Oh my God, I'd be on this same path all along.
[00:14:53] Jeff: [00:14:53] Yeah. I, Oh, gosh, it was like, blinders came off. I'm like, wait a minute. I like, that was a key. I was like, Oh my God, I forgot about the, like maybe the most important piece of the story started all the way back there. I didn't S I didn't, we were going to talk more about my journey, but I didn't study science in college.
[00:15:11] The first 16 years of work outside of college was focused in the media and publishing industry. I had nothing to do with science, but was there something here? That just kept pulling me to follow the thread. I think so. And I think I'm now beginning to discover and see that as a, as if I'm seeing it for the first time in my life.
[00:15:32]CK: [00:15:32] How I know I'm falling, my thread is how much joy I get in spite of the difficulties, the challenging times, the ridiculousness or the pettiness, whatever. And that I still enjoy. whatever it is that I do. So that's how I know, like I'm on my path.
[00:15:52] I'm curious to know having identify the past as well as the present. How can you advise your younger self to really follow that thread a little bit better?
[00:16:07] Jeff: [00:16:07] Yeah.
[00:16:11] I think the, two most important words I would tell that younger self would be to slow down. I, have, always found myself to be an overachiever. I'm very driven towards my own success, whatever that, however you define that. And. I looking back over the adult years of my life specifically, and probably the young adult years of my life to the best years of my life have always been the years where I slowed down, slowed down to give myself space, to think, to listen, to reflect and to be inspired.
[00:16:55] And the, and, the worst years of my life historically have always been years where I tried to take on too much, do too much achieve too much. And so much so that, ultimately drove me to a major collapse, health collapse four years ago. that, set me on the path that I'm on today, which I'm sure we'll get to unpack on the show, but, that would be the advice I'd give to myself would be to slow down.
[00:17:22] CK: [00:17:22] So before we get to the collapse and very important moment, I want you to underline sorta the med tech cognition aspect of it. Cause you're speaking to an audience of overachievers, chances are, and then what they hear from. Their inner voice their parents or their culture, or even their community is go, faster is better.
[00:17:47] More is better.
[00:17:50] Filling up your entire calendar is better. Productivity, galore 24 seven. And so then the advice of hearing slowing down, like intellectually, I get it I got to go, So it's neither don't do anything. It's neither fill up everything.
[00:18:13] Every single second of your calendar with something. In my mind, I am a believer of the middle path right. In the middle way. So I'm curious to know how you navigated giving yourself space at the same time, be as ambitious, as impactful as we want to be.
[00:18:31] Jeff: [00:18:31] Yeah. First I had to learn the hard way and that's when my life came to a screeching halt and I fell bedridden for three months with a, very chronic illness.
[00:18:42] But then since then, and I, and since I've slowly climbed out of that health collapse, what I've had to do on a day-to-day moment to moment basis is build in rhythms and rest. You have to it's, it becomes part of your daily discipline part of your, daily doing where you become very intentional about specific moments in the day where you do slow down where you do, that work of non-doing.
[00:19:10] And I know that on the days when I take that time and make that a priority, that the best of my life emerges from those moments was it the famous mystic and monk? Thomas Merton, who said like he, he called it like it was this whole idea of action and contemplation, like action comes out of contemplation.
[00:19:39] But it has to start there. It starts with contemplation first. And then that was later adopted by this Franciscan priest, father, Richard Rohr, who actually runs the center for action and contemplation down in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And it's this whole idea of people like people that are wired like you and me need to remind ourselves that the very best of us lies in those moments of contemplation, of rest of reflection.
[00:20:08] And the action should only come out of those moments. You should never force the action from another place of action.
[00:20:15] Does that make
[00:20:16] CK: [00:20:16] it totally does I, whenever I. Make a decision out of being hurried. Chances are, is never a good one,
[00:20:30] actually. So for me, one of the tools that I got recently is the aura ring. I don't know if you could see it here.
[00:20:36] Jeff: [00:20:36] Oh, I been seeing those and I would, love to learn more about the aura ring. I've heard that. It's awesome.
[00:20:41] CK: [00:20:41] Yeah. So qualitatively, I knew that my sleep is suffered. A lot recently. And so I wanted to quantify it right as a scientific person.
[00:20:54] I like to play with numbers. I like to gamify it. So, I got it or arranged just as a forcing function for me too. To see where I'm at and how it can tweak it and do scientific experiments on myself on how I can basically up to score better. And it's been, it's only been a few days, but as being good so far for me. So
[00:21:14] Jeff: [00:21:14] I just wrote that down. I'm actually, I think it's time I look into one.
[00:21:18] CK: [00:21:18] Yeah. So I always share a couple of things and why I like it. One is minimum profile. So it doesn't bother me. I don't need you thinking about putting on a ban or a watch or some kind of a wearables, it lasts for a long time and it looks pretty cool.
[00:21:38] That doesn't hurt and it's one of those things for me. I like a forcing function was I do it and I can just forget about it. Yeah. And then, it has a mobile app. It tells you that Hey, it's time to move. It gives you someone. I got caloric intake on your goals. So it's, more than just a sleep tracker, even though that's what I want.
[00:22:02] It's also for me an activity tracker as well. And one thing that's really cool for me accidental discovery is as an athlete. Resting heart rate. It's something that I was want to know, like what is my resting heart rate when I'm sleeping? So this also allows me to track.
[00:22:22] Jeff: [00:22:22] Yeah. What do you like to do physically from a fitness perspective?
[00:22:25] I'm just curious where, you're at.
[00:22:27] CK: [00:22:27] Yeah, for sure. By the way, when I did a research on you. I saw that you're an avid CrossFitter. Are you still
[00:22:36] Jeff: [00:22:36] that's funny. I was actually an early adopter of CrossFit. I was really into it about 10 years ago. I got certified to teach and to train and yeah. Yeah. So love, it.
[00:22:47] But I've I evolved away from that, but now I've found myself coming back to it in a new way. I'm actually really into this modality called animal flow. So animal flow is a hybrid of yoga, Capitola jujitsu. And I have a trainer that I see once a week and she's a bad-ass and just really love that style of work of working out where it's really just using sort of natural movement.
[00:23:13] But no, I think CrossFit was definitely foundational to my fitness regime at one point. And I still borrow and draw on that.
[00:23:20] CK: [00:23:20] So like you, I try CrossFit as well, but as a competitive person, I just find myself being too competitive and hurt myself very, easily.
[00:23:31] After two
[00:23:31] or three times, I've trying it.
[00:23:33] I'm like, Oh my God, CrossFit is just not as good for me. Cause I don't want to be lower than someone who's like a grandma, right?
[00:23:40] Go faster, go harder. And then the grandma's just taking her time and making it easy. Anyway, pulling, being CrossFit. Is awesome. If you can be disciplined about pushing yourself, but not injuring yourself, I'm not that person.
[00:23:55] So for me, I'm more of a body movement type person that I really enjoy that. I, so in terms of my physical, rituals today, it's run and then I do a regular Teboda.
[00:24:13] Jeff: [00:24:13] Nice.
[00:24:15] CK: [00:24:15] Whether it be sprinting or shadowboxing right. And then I'll basically run back. So it's pretty, is easy, simple, nothing too complicated.
[00:24:26] And also to do a 50, 50 every day. So 50 pushups, 50 crunches. I may add something else just change up the the flavor. Yeah,
[00:24:37] Jeff: [00:24:37] very cool. Very cool.
[00:24:39] CK: [00:24:39] And
[00:24:39] what about you, Anna? Everyday animal flow.
[00:24:43] Jeff: [00:24:43] Yeah a routine that's lasts from morning till the time I go to bed. And first thing in the morning, it's usually a, about a 20 minute combination of yoga core, work, core strengthening, and animal flow with maybe some kettlebells.
[00:25:00] So that's just opens me up, loosens my body and. First thing, it gives me energy he's actually that I transitioned into about a 10 to 20 minute breath work session. I'm usually up about a full hour before my wife gets up and it's just like a routine we have in our house that works really well for us.
[00:25:19] And that first sort of hour of my day that's the, foundation to everything else I do. And then later on in the day, usually either over the lunch hour or after work, I go out for either an hour bicycle I'm into like bike riding Mountain biking road, cycling or gravel.
[00:25:37] Like I have a couple of different bike choices and here in Pennsylvania, I think it's a single track mountain bike trail, pretty easy or beautiful country roads to go ride a bike. So I'll do either an hour bike ride. Or the animal flow movement session a couple of nights a week. And then every couple weeks I can sneak down to the beach.
[00:25:56] So the, Jersey shore is about two hours door to door from where I live. And I took up surfing three years ago, which has been a major catalyst in my healing. There's just about being in the ocean for me and. I'm I'm, not a great surfer. I'm some days I threat with coming away from being, from, going from beginner to intermediate I'm somewhere on that, edge.
[00:26:19] But just as soon as I feel like I'm about to bust into the intermediate surfing bracket, then a really big set of waves come, and then I get humbled again. But I love surfing. I've. Just find it to be one of the most profound experiences I've ever had. So that's the mix it's it's movement, core strength, cycling, walking, and then surfing.
[00:26:43] CK: [00:26:43] Yeah. No, that's beautiful. I want to unpack a few things. So number one, you seem to really enjoy it too. The, you see yourself as an athlete, right? And three, you have variety. Yeah, my options. So then depending on your mood or whatever you have, you don't have to just stick with one thing and for they're pretty much all outdoors, right?
[00:27:11] So you don't quite just seeing the gym a person. So I want to ask you about the question of why, the outdoors, like why is being in nature movement important for
[00:27:25] Jeff: [00:27:25] you? Yeah. And by the way, even the core work and the yoga, like on, from spring through fall, if I can be outside I'm out on my back, deck doing that work.
[00:27:38] So yeah, there is absolutely something about being in nature that in some ways is as much of a priority as the exercise itself. I find just like you, I rely on tech to do most of my work. So I'm on screens all day and I really, need that separation. I need that the breathing, the sounds, the sights, the smells the feeling of being in nature and the movement itself to me or the combination.
[00:28:14] It's not one or the other. It's both. My wife thinks I'm nuts, but I have no problem going for a bicycle ride in January and Pennsylvania, 30 degree day, you have the right clothing, the right gear. I'm not looking to win, but I don't race bikes. I don't compete. I used to do that. But to me, it's the elements, the rhythms and the breathing.
[00:28:36] It's all of it,
[00:28:40] CK: [00:28:40] yeah. I a hundred percent agree with you. A major. Metropolitan area. So it's a little bit harder. I used to live in a Topanga or a Pacific Palisades around that area. So it was pretty easy to get to the Pacific ocean, but these days, a little bit harder. So
[00:29:00] Jeff: [00:29:00] I know
[00:29:02] CK: [00:29:02] orange County,
[00:29:02] Yeah. So yeah so, there's that trade-off right. I want to be nature, but at the same time, I like my convenience. We're going to get into that particular component when it comes to food in a moment. But accessing nature's super important. I didn't appreciate when I was younger.
[00:29:22] My dad used to really just love us to do, to take us through the highest mountain on Taiwan and overlook the ocean and the mountain. And in my younger mind, I'm like, this is so boring.
[00:29:37] Why nature, but as I get older, I'm like, Holy shed. There's so much the energetic transmission do relaxation of the mind.
[00:29:46] And the air you breathe and just expands my internal space. So much nature is it's true adaptogen, right? Plastic calms you down. If you're not stressed if you, need a little bit more inspiration, NCU up, so it's great.
[00:30:03] Jeff: [00:30:03] Do you ever practice Qigong by chance?
[00:30:06] CK: [00:30:06] I looked into it actually, one of the previous guests is a world champion and push hand. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I looked into it. I, to me, it's all about finding the right
[00:30:18] teacher,any kind of discipline that I learned is I have yet to find the right teacher with it. Mastery of the skills as well as the right resonance, as well as teaching style.
[00:30:29] So those are really hard to find for me.
[00:30:32] Jeff: [00:30:32] I just again, when I was really sick and not able to physically do much because of being so sick I discovered Qigong I found a woman and she actually taught me virtually she taught me through zoom like this. And and then later about a year later I met who is now one of my best friends.
[00:30:50] And he too is a qigong master. Has taught me a lot. So a lot of times, if I can't do anything else, like I just mentioned all that I'd love to do, but if a certain day just doesn't present itself with the ability to do any of those other modalities. I'll just go outside and practice Qigong for 10 minutes and 15 minutes.
[00:31:08] And it's, powerful just to be able to breathe and move and connect breath with movement in nature. It's incredible.
[00:31:18] CK: [00:31:18] So you mentioned breath work a few times. I know you're really passionate about breath work. Show with us your love for breath work.
[00:31:27] this particular practice domain,
[00:31:32] all that.
[00:31:33] Jeff: [00:31:33] Yeah. Let's see, I want to hesitate how I respond because I don't want to open a can of worms that well, maybe I do, but we're going to get into my health collapse. Let us talk about breathwork first and then we'll go to my health collapse and then back to breathwork. But what I was ultimately diagnosed with. When my health fell apart was chronic line disease. So I went about six, seven months undiagnosed. And then when I finally found myself to the right doctor who was able to do the right diagnostics and he found what he found, okay.
[00:32:10] Now I knew what I was dealing with. And one of the many, side-effects was this feeling of the sensation of shortness of breath. And this, went on for months, if not over a year where perfectly. Fit guy. I used to be at the top of my athletic game, competitive athlete, and then I fall completely bedridden.
[00:32:31] Couldn't do anything. There was days when I couldn't even walk to the mailbox to get the mail. I was that sick. And then, as I slowly crawled out of that, one of the lingering symptoms was the sensation of breathlessness, which I later found was a symptom of, chronic Lyme disease. It impacts your mitochondria and your mitochondrial function.
[00:32:53] And you're, actually not starved for oxygen, but you're, you think you are. And so I found my way through, so I was a very committed meditation practice in her at the time. And this is about two years ago. And then I started on this path that led me to Wim Hof method and other ancient forms of breath work.
[00:33:14] But and I started experimenting with all kinds of different. Forms of breathwork Wim, Hoff, and a combination of Wim Hoff and some other techniques, or really what I do on a daily basis. But about two months into daily practice, that symptom went away and I have never had this symptom again since I started practicing.
[00:33:34] So that sensation of breath is just gone. It was gone.
[00:33:39] CK: [00:33:39] Amazing. There's a whole, let's see, I do want to get back to. Yeah, why don't we talk about the health collapse and then we're going to come back to breath, work at a bit and we can go really deep in the breath work if you don't mind.
[00:33:52] Jeff: [00:33:52] Sure.
[00:33:52] No, not at all.
[00:33:53] CK: [00:33:53] Yeah. How did you come about the this health collapse, how did you discover it? Was it, and why don't you do to actually focus on not just Hey, I had a health problem. I saw a doctor and got prescribed like more of a describing it. If he can go into the experience of it. The dark part of it, like the, emotion aspect of it.
[00:34:19] I think it's really important to discuss that because I don't think just people say enough about their dark moments. So if you can go into that a bit, I think it would be really, helpful for those who may be in their dark moments now.
[00:34:38] Jeff: [00:34:38] I have, no, it would be my honor to do that.
[00:34:42] Up until about October of 2016, I had been
[00:34:47] working in a leadership. You could even say senior leadership capacity in the media industry. So graduating college, full circle, talk about following the thread, coming out of college. I graduated with a degree in marketing, and, but at the same time, I always, through my teen years, I held this passion for health and wellness because of what I experienced in my childhood.
[00:35:11] And through my college years, I was not sure about, okay, what do I want to do? What am I going to do? Like I had this sort of yearning for marrying together, my business degree in marketing with my passion for health and wellness. But. I was struggling with what would that look like? How could I connect those dots?
[00:35:31] And in during college, I was dating a girl who was from Eastern Pennsylvania, and she was a year older than me and had really good grades. She graduated a year, before me and landed a job teaching at a private school, like a really prestigious private school that was in Pennsylvania, near her home and near my home.
[00:35:55] And. No, we had this conversation that I remember going something like That's all well, that's great. I fully support you in your ambitions to go start teaching here, but I really want to go pursue health and wellness. And I think that's probably going to take me out West somewhere.
[00:36:13] Cause that's where the health and wellness industry was like based like Boulder, Colorado was just this town that was in my mind. And she's I'm not leaving here. Like I have a job. This is where my family is, so I thought okay, I really, I like this girl. I want to give it a go.
[00:36:30]So someone said you should consider Rodale and someone. And I said what's Rodale. And they said, Oh, it's this health and wellness publishing company. They're like a global health and wellness publishing company.
[00:36:40] They're based over in this little town, not too far from here, but yet they publish products. She's like this person said, You may even know one of their magazines is called men's health magazine.
[00:36:54] Men's health is published by Rodale in Pennsylvania, not too far from where I'm standing right now. She's yeah, that's right. She's check it out. So went on. This would have been around spring of 2001. I went onto the website. I'm like, okay. It was like this whole world opened. I'm like, wait a minute.
[00:37:12] The whole, if you read about the Rodale story and I hope to share with you like the, history of that company is started by this one, man, who his name is J I Rodale, and he's widely known as the pioneer of the whole organic food movement in North America. He started a magazine in 1942 called organic gardening magazine, and then built a whole health and wellness publishing company on that one product.
[00:37:36] And. I was like, this is a dream come true. If I could figure out a way to get a job there, that would be everything. And. So that's begun the journey. I ended up like applying through the traditional channels. I didn't know anyone there. So I just applied to the HR department and landed a job like entry-level marketing job for men's health magazine in September of 2001.
[00:38:01]I ended up spending 13 amazing years working in publishing for Rodale. And became the publisher and managing director of several of the products. And then in 2013, I got recruited away from Rodale to a competitive company, a company that competes with rodeo called active interest media.
[00:38:22] They're based in Boulder, Colorado. So again, it's like this whole thread just began to connect and I thought now's my chance to move out West. And. Go experience the world in another place. So I moved out there and spent three years by my then fiance and I moved together and we got married and we called that our three-year honeymoon.
[00:38:43] I was the managing director of yoga journal magazine, and some other health and wellness products. And I ultimately wasn't really fulfilled in that work. It just, I missed the mission, the sense of mission, the sense of purpose that I've found in Rodale, I've missed the family orientation that, company.
[00:39:00] Had, and lo and behold, I get a call from the third generation CEO of the company, Maria Rodale. And she called me around the end of 2015 and invited me back to basically have a very, senior position. I was going to be the senior vice president over an entire division of Rodale, inc. The media industry was starting to really fall on challenging times around that year.
[00:39:27] At that point, Google and Facebook were taking about 70 cents market share of every dollar spent on media and advertising. So publishers like Rodale were just struggling to stay relevant. And my job was to come back and try to lead that company through a very challenging time. And I think, have you ever heard this whole idea, like the loyal soldier, this sort of idea that many men in particular struggle with this complex, that.
[00:39:57] We're, meant to fix everything. And so that we are somehow superhuman and that we can somehow take on the world. And that, was the mindset I had around this. Not, I was subtle. I didn't really, I didn't lead with this idea. It was coming from a very humble place, but I think deep down at the center of my being my soul probably felt like maybe, yeah, maybe Jeff, you are the one that could save this.
[00:40:23] And so I went back to Pennsylvania and within the first year, I it was the hardest job I ever signed up for. It was, I was on and off airplanes all the time. I never saw my wife. I was taking on a $40 million. Turnaround and a $4 million startup. So I oversaw two products and
[00:40:47] CK: [00:40:47] sorry, I didn't understand.
[00:40:48] 40 million turning around and $4 million up.
[00:40:52] Jeff: [00:40:52] Yeah. Yeah. So I actually was I had two jobs. I was the senior vice president and managing director of prevention the prevention brand, which was a magazine and a whole business line of products that was worth about, it was about a $40 million division inside of Rodale.
[00:41:08] So that was struggling and frankly, it was losing money and my job was to make it profitable again. And then the $4 million startup was another magazine and brand that the company started called organic life. And my job was to help put that brand into orbit and to get that profitable. So that was my job.
[00:41:29] And about a year into it the first nine months were going really well. And then about nine months into the whole ordeal, I. Got sick, like just mysteriously ill. Like it was like a fall day, just like today. Beautiful day. And I got, I fell ill and it was started with as a cold and then the cold progressed into fever.
[00:41:49] And then the fever progressed into full on flu like symptoms. And about three days into it, I'm like I should probably go to the doctor. Went to the doctor. I didn't really have a good doctor because I was. Pretty healthy guy. So went to a family doctor at the hospital. He did a whole evaluation on me, did a bunch of blood work.
[00:42:07] He found nothing, at all, and then said focus on bed rest. You probably just have a fall flu or a fall cold or a virus. So that was like about 10, 12 days into it. I'm still not getting better. Kept going back, calling the doctor's office explaining, Hey, I'm sick. Like guys, I'm really sick.
[00:42:28] Can someone please help me? And they're like, we're doing everything we can for you just focus on getting better. And so I took a week off of work. Finally. I forced myself to go back to work like the fever broke and then I just wasn't right. And from about the end of October through the end of the year, like December I would get just well enough to get back to work only to fall ill again.
[00:42:51] And it was like this process over about 12 weeks. It was the same cycle. And finally December 27th of 2016, I went back to that doctor one final time. And I said, doc, I'm still not better. You got to help me. There's something seriously wrong. And he looked at me and he said, the only thing that I can do for you is offer you a prescription to an anti-anxiety and an anti-depressant.
[00:43:14] Because at that point I was having like panic attacks, like I was scared to death. And he was like, beyond that, Jeff, we sent you the four specialists. There's nothing wrong with you. You're overworked. You're burned out. And the whole cause of your health collapse is. That you took on you that you're trying to push yourself beyond your limits.
[00:43:35] So now it's January, he said, I'll tell you what, I'll write a medical doctor's note to send you on medical leave that will allow you to get paid on disability. So talk about humility. I went from being this top performer, this high performing athlete, this business executive to bedridden on the couch and No answers as to what caused that health collapse.
[00:43:59] So now about four or five, six weeks into being at home on medical leave a good friend said you might want to consider finding yourself to what's called a functional medicine doctor.
[00:44:09] CK: [00:44:09] So before you go to the, solution part, if you can describe what that experience is like and actually at what practices helped you through those dark moments.
[00:44:19] Because some people maybe in their dark moments right now, and they may need to find their source of purpose or inspiration to continue for in. Especially for entrepreneurs, right? Doing COVID. This has may have tanked and now are looking to reinvent themselves as a new person.
[00:44:39]If you can contextualize what the emotional experience is doing those darkness of this or moments that we really great
[00:44:50] Jeff: [00:44:50] yeah. Monitor to do that, actually I will never let myself forget what that season in my life felt with, because I will tell you that on my worst days now, All I have to do is close my eyes to think back to then, and everything comes into full focus, but that was the worst.
[00:45:07] That was the worst moment of my life. That 12 we'll call it a 12 to 16 week period of being on medical leave. I don't exactly remember how long it was, but I think it was from January 1st through maybe mid March. I was full on medical leave. I wasn't allowed to work by law. Wasn't allowed to look at my email.
[00:45:26] Wasn't allowed to take work-related for it. You weren't allowed by law. You're not allowed to do any work, anything work-related or you'd lose your disability. Friends or coworkers and colleagues stopped calling. To be honest with you, my marriage was a little Rocky because my wife and I were, she was so concerned about me, but.
[00:45:49] She didn't see me trying to help myself. She, all she saw was this guy who, whose life fell apart. And all I did was worry and look at Google and try. And I would literally spend days looking at symptoms and trying to marry symptoms through that. I found through Google with health outcomes, like I was trying to become my own doctor and just this perpetual mental cycle of worry and fear, worry, and fear, worry and fear.
[00:46:15] I was having insomnia, panic attacks. Depression like you, would not believe I was, I've never been at depressed. I think I lost 30 pounds. I couldn't eat my stomach was so upset because of the illness itself. And what I started doing was just little Burr. I w I would call them little mini bursts.
[00:46:36] So on every day I would force myself to go outside and breathe in air and just, it was wintertime. So I'd sit in the sun. Any, sunny day, I would just force myself to go outside for a few minutes. Here and there to listen, to pray, to reflect, then I'd go inside. And I would do just five minutes of yoga on the mat just little bits, a couple of minutes here, just whatever I had the energy to do.
[00:47:00] And then I, then food, I would start like, okay, how can I nourish my body as best I could? So I would focus on food meditation. I would just do any little thing I could. And most of the time I wouldn't feel any different. And then once in a while I would, feel a little more parasympathetic activation.
[00:47:21] I'd feel a little more calm, a little more centered, a little more reassured, and then there'd be certain days when you know, and it's a little emotional for me to talk about, but there'd be certain days when a feeling beyond me would sweep over me. That would say, you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay.
[00:47:45] This is, there is there is there is there is something for you in all of this and something, beautiful is going to emerge. You have to trust that you have to trust. And I think looking back, I probably would have told myself one more time to trust, because I think in those worst moments, that's where the that's where the beauty comes from.
[00:48:13] CK: [00:48:13] Yes, in hindsight, but in the moment, fucking sucks.
[00:48:18] Yeah. It fucking sucks. Oh my God. How long is this going to be?
[00:48:25] Yeah, I'm talking to someone I get what you're saying for sure. It's fucking socks.
[00:48:32] Jeff: [00:48:32] I didn't even I would force myself to journal. I forced myself to read.
[00:48:36] I didn't want to do anything. I literally was so depressed. My wife and I were renting this really cool house on a horse farm at the time. So we had, we were renting this little carriage house in Pennsylvania, which is pretty common here. There's a lot of horse farms and we had a really cool landlord.
[00:48:52] Who's become a dear friend. And I remember he had a whole, this beautiful pressure on horse. I don't know if you've ever been around a whole pressure on some massive, these massive beast, like animals. And he had a horse named chance. And I would go out and this is no kidding. I would go out. And my daily ritual was to take chance a carrot and I would go out to the barn.
[00:49:12] It was middle of the winter. It was cold. So he'd be in the stall. He wasn't out on pasture. And I would fucking sit there and have a conversation with a horse as I fed him a carrot. And that horse, let me tell you that horse taught me other lots, that horse, that animal, that the The, aura of that animal and what he taught me on a day-to-day basis was profound.
[00:49:42] CK: [00:49:42] Do you mind sharing some of those insights or lessons or teachings that you learned from the horse?
[00:49:52] Jeff: [00:49:52] It, he taught me that I wasn't alone that there was some larger force at work surrounding me holding me up. And he was just there to tell me it was all going to be okay. And to stay here, stay in this moment. There's beauty right here. You're here. You're living on this farm.
[00:50:13] We're living in this really cool house on this beautiful property. And there's a lot to be thankful for right here right now. And this is your moment to slow your life down. So let, to let this moment slow your life down. Let it slow you down. Be here with me. I'm a horse I'm hanging out like I can't go anywhere either and it's pretty good, and he's he just showed me how to see the, beauty that was all around me. He also taught me something about strength too. There was a stoicism to that animal. He was just very strong and various presence was very powerful and I think he gave me. He gave me that strength too.
[00:51:02] CK: [00:51:02] That's beautiful. Yeah. I love horses. Never own one or be around one along enough other than just once riding experiences. But when I, whenever I'm near horses, I really appreciate. Yeah. And just as, you said it to the magnificent beast that they are. So can you share with us a little bit about were you already on this spiritual path, did you believe there is something greater than the soul, the spirit or, was it something that more of an intuition that there's something bigger during your dark moments?
[00:51:48] Jeff: [00:51:48] I had, yes, I had absolutely been on the spiritual path for most of my adult life. Raised in a traditional Roman Catholic family went to Catholic school from first through 12th grade. None of that really resonated with me. However, I do think it created an amazing foundation to my, spiritual formation.
[00:52:12] And then around late high school, early college years, I started exploring on my own. I'd say that my exploration took me first towards the Christian mystics. So I'd still related to that Christian narrative, the Judeo-Christian narrative, but a lot of The spiritual thinkers that I began reading and following were more of them came more out of the mystical tradition, where it was more about prayer and contemplation and meditation.
[00:52:41] Like I mentioned, Thomas Merton and Henry now and Brennan Manning my Sarek part some of these thinkers really began to shape my worldview, which helped open my eyes to other religious or spiritual traditions Buddhism and and, All forms of spirituality. So I had this really strong spiritual foundation.
[00:53:06] I've been deeply connected to the Quaker tradition because of where I live here in Pennsylvania. There's a pretty big Quaker influence. And the Quakers, if you don't know much about them are pretty, I pretty much call them the Christian Buddhists. Oh, they had this reputation of being. Very backward and antiquated, but they're actually probably the most progressive Christian minds.
[00:53:32] Their form of worship is that you need in community without clergy, without any paid clergy. You sit in silence as a group, as a community. You sit in silence for about an hour, and then as you feel led, you can stand and share a teaching or a revelation. It's a beautiful experience. Anyone. Can feel welcome going to a, Quaker, they call it a Quaker meeting.
[00:53:53] So I had that sort of in my background, but I would say that this sort of dark night of the soul caused me to question everything and I was definitely drawing a lot on God's spirit the Christ consciousness story, like all of these sort of ideas. I was so desperate that I was praying.
[00:54:17] I was praying to all beings. I was praying, I was like very broadly crying out to, for help. And there's been, there was so many moments along that sort of dark night where I did feel the presence of a higher power that was guiding me through it all.
[00:54:39] CK: [00:54:39] Thank you so much for sharing your very.
[00:54:41] Deep intimate moments and it's so relatable and so necessary. And that's why I want to normalize people are sharing their dark moments a little bit more publicly because who knows we would, by the way, when people do share their dark moments, a lot of times we'll hear back Hey, I was actually thinking about doing the unthinkable, but thanks for the story.
[00:55:11] Jeff: [00:55:11] Yeah, actually I'll share one more, one more detail. There was a one day in particular. So Lyme disease it does it usually when it becomes chronic. So Lyme disease is totally healable. If you catch it within the first couple of weeks, if you get bit by a tick and you see a bullseye and then you go to the doctor and the doctor gives you.
[00:55:35] Antibiotics about
[00:55:38] you. You lost me on that and what's
[00:55:40] yeah, you're from California. This isn't. So here on the East coast, there's a lot of tips. Lyme disease is very common specifically in the Northeast. Although there are now confirmed cases in all 50 States, but normally what happens is you get bit usually by a tick could be a spider, but there's other insects that carry the Lyme bacteria.
[00:56:02] And so you'd get it. And you ended up with this rash. The rash is normal, normally like a circle and it looks like a bullseye. That's like a classic telltale okay, this person has Lyme disease. Then the die. Then you go to the doctor and you get tested. And then the testing is a little it's a little inaccurate.
[00:56:23] And so a lot of times people don't know if they really have it. So the doctor just gives them a two week cycle of antibiotics. And that's usually enough to just knock it out. In my case I, never found a bullseye. I never saw a tick on me and I fell mysteriously ill seven months later, my doctor confirmed, Oh, it was Lyme disease.
[00:56:45] At that point, there's no antibiotic that's going to work. What happens because I wasn't treated right away. The first few months it started affecting me neurologically. So it's very common that the Lyme disease attacks the brain and it causes panic. It causes anxiety, it causes the inability to sleep like insomnia and.
[00:57:11] There was a day in particular where I was feeling so terrible and my wife was like, I just let's get you out of the house. Let's just go for a ride in the car. And I remember I was like my, I was having some of the most irrational thoughts that might, I never thought my brain was capable of having such irrational thoughts, but they were certainly suicidal.
[00:57:34] And I was thinking to myself, okay, maybe I should just ask my wife to drop me off at the hospital and leave me just lock me up for awhile. Just, take me somewhere. And I never spoke those words, but I was so close to just asking her. That's how it guy I just couldn't, I couldn't pull myself out of it.
[00:57:53] CK: [00:57:53] Yeah. So thank you so much. As entrepreneur, especially as very ambitious impact driven people
[00:58:04] Oftentimes we do associate ourself as team, along with what we accomplished, what we do. So we're going through the self-esteem roller coaster ride. And, I think what you were sharing, it's even more fundamental, right?
[00:58:20] Because it's your health, it affects how you think it affects your sleep. And we all know that if you don't sleep well, then it's a downward spiral right away. I really appreciate sharing all of this. And then a quick recap should doing these moments during this journey. What you're doing is go out, go in the sun.
[00:58:43] Prey do minutes at a time, any kind of positive practices that you have as a way to bring back your own sovereignty, in spite of all of these physiological environmental, relational, circumstantial impacts that has on your sovereignty. Is that an accurate reflection on what you said?
[00:59:04] Jeff: [00:59:04] That's absolutely correct.
[00:59:05] Yes. Yeah, that's it? Yup. It's like, how do you resource yourself from minute to minute in moments like that?
[00:59:13] CK: [00:59:13] Yeah. So was it pretty much a solo journey or did you actually have additional community relational support?
[00:59:23] Jeff: [00:59:23] At that time, I my wife was very close to me, although it was hard for her to relate.
[00:59:28] She was just there in the background doing the best she could. And in the end, this all brought us closer. I think our marriage ultimately became stronger over time, but that took. That took a couple years, to be honest with you. So she would, admit that too. So at the time I was really, I had this realization pretty early on in that collapse that if I was going to pull myself out of it, it was up to me it was my decision.
[00:59:57] No one was going to help me out of it. And so I just started resourcing myself. However I could. Number one, I found a great doctor number two, and he's still my doctor today. I had. Yeah. Yeah. And I had, I found a great psychotherapist who I still see on a biweekly basis and cannot more highly recommend that experience of having someone, a therapist that you can really relate to and that you can really feel comfortable with.
[01:00:25] But to this day, my doctor and my therapist became my two advocates. And then thirdly, I actually worked with a third gentleman who I guess he would call himself more of a guide, like he works with leaders. I guess it's okay to reveal who he works for an organization called reboot started by Jerry Colonna.
[01:00:48] So he's one of Jerry's coaches and I've known him from when I lived in Boulder. I knew this gentleman and. He would meet with me over zoom while I was like, literally in bed, we'd meet on the computer. Like once a week, I'd have my laptop in bed and I'd be like, feeling absolutely horrible. And Jim would just coach me and guide me and like he would walk me through the journey of hell yeah.
[01:01:16] I was living and helped give me some guidance on how to. Learn from this place that I was in and eventually move beyond it. So yeah, Jim was an amazing spiritual director to me during that time
[01:01:32] CK: [01:01:32] delineate on that point just a little bit, because it sounds well, it sounds like he's a mindset coach slash spiritual guy.
[01:01:41] How do you delineate the difference between my psych coach, spiritual guy for you?
[01:01:48] Jeff: [01:01:48] Yeah. So I was working with both a traditional psychotherapist and then Jim, who was more of this sort of leadership coach, if you will I'd say that th the psychotherapist is following more of a mental health okay how can we, literally help coach this guy?
[01:02:10] Back to mental wholeness back to physiological, whole wholeness. And how can we help him overcome some of the trauma that he's facing versus Jim's approach, which was let's stay in the shit for awhile. And let's, be okay with that. And let's look at what's there let's look at what this moment of darkness wants to teach you about.
[01:02:40] here for you now. Not so I had the psychotherapist who is okay, here's, let's get you to a better place. And then I had this other coach who was saying, let's stay here for a bit and really look hard at what's here. Because if you, don't do that, you're going to miss a tremendous opportunity of healing and of awakening.
[01:03:05] CK: [01:03:05] Yeah. Yeah. It's, hard to the reason I'm emphasizing on the delineation is because what a lot of what we talk about here on the podcast, it seems paradoxical. Would you want to lean into your pain and discomfort? And then how do you then aspire to be making more impact, more ambitious, better?
[01:03:28] And the quote unquote, the better version of ourselves, right? Paradoxical. Like why, dwell on the past? Why have I talk about it? Why do I talk about when normalizing this conversation now I want to move on to two to the next thing, the better thing, the bigger thing, the faster, the better Having gone through a few similar dark night of the soul moments that myself, my approach, now what I've learned is if you just patch it up and move on the its root is still there.
[01:04:03] Jeff: [01:04:03] That's what Jim and Jim would even say that he's you keep asking the same question every week. I was like, what am I asking you? He goes, what are you asking? And I'd say, what am I going to get better? What am I going to get better? What am I going to get better? That was like this mantra I had, I would ask him every week, Jim, what am I going to get better?
[01:04:23] And he'd say, I don't know, what are you going to get better? And it was, this idea of stop trying to get somewhere else. Be here. This is, the healing right
[01:04:35] CK: [01:04:35] here. Yeah. Yeah. I, love it. And I also love the fact that, so in terms of relational, going back to my my question is you put together a team of
[01:04:48] Jeff: [01:04:48] professionals
[01:04:49] CK: [01:04:49] to help you get back on your path to healing and recovery.
[01:04:55] So the, way I would perhaps use a metaphor is I treat myself as a high-performance vehicle F1. Formula racing car and who is in my peer group, who are the best physical, who are the best people who take care of my physicality mentality, emotionality, spirituality, relationality, all of it, right?
[01:05:21] Jeff: [01:05:21] Yes. Yeah. Yes. That's that's exactly what I did. And I, can add a couple of people to that. Thank you for giving words to that, because I had never really thought about that. But then, so it was like a great doc, a great functional medicine doctor, a great psychotherapist, a great sort of spiritual coach.
[01:05:39] And then I had a great acupuncturist who to this day really, helped me. She's still in my life and, I can go further down the list, but you're right. I assembled a team that ultimately coached me back to health, guided me.
[01:05:57] CK: [01:05:57] I want to ask you a follow up question around there.
[01:05:59] So what are some of the criteria that you have regarding picking those people? Who's going to pick crew and I asked this question specifically because in my mind, it's not just around their competencies, but there's something more. So I'm curious to know what your criteria is for
[01:06:19] Jeff: [01:06:19] Sure. Relate-ability.
[01:06:24] Like someone who they're, you just get a felt sense for, Oh, I'm going to work well with this person because I like their energy or the way that they receive me or their compassion or their ability to listen and understand the suffering that I'm going through. So to me, it was more of a relent, a relate-ability factor.
[01:06:47] And then of course, Phil it philosophical alignment too. At that point I knew what I didn't want, which was the traditional pharmaceutical approach. Was it didn't, there was no answers there for me. So I didn't want to find a doctor that was going to attempt to give me more answers with more drugs like that.
[01:07:07] That was a dead end game. Cause I had already seen that by the way, I ended up taking that anti-depressant. So when that, final doctor, visit, when he said, listen, all I can do for you is offer you this prescription medicine. I was so desperate and scared and I'm like he's a doctor.
[01:07:24] He obviously knows. And if he thinks this is going to make me feel any better, I'll take it. So I got on that medicine and for me that, was one of the, that was that didn't help very much in some ways. And I'm not, I don't want to go on your show here and profess that antidepressant medicine is.
[01:07:48] It didn't work for me personally. I would never, that's not a blanket statement. In fact, if anything, I will praise the medicine. If it made me feel better, in my case, it became a very difficult path to unwind that. I probably wouldn't have done anything different in hindsight, but I'm just saying what I knew in that moment was.
[01:08:07] I didn't think the conventional medical path had any answers for me. So as part of my criteria, I wanted to find the answers in a healthier, biologically driven way versus chemical driven way.
[01:08:23] CK: [01:08:23] Beautiful. Let's geek out just a little bit on the breath work part, if you don't mind. And then we can go into more of a bigger picture figure for looking impact driven endeavors that you have.
[01:08:38] Is that cool?
[01:08:39] Jeff: [01:08:39] Cool. All right. Awesome.
[01:08:40] CK: [01:08:40] Thank you. So let's keep up on breathwork a bit. So recently I came across a really interesting book called breath. Have you come across it,
[01:08:50] Jeff: [01:08:50] love that book.
[01:08:51] CK: [01:08:51] Okay. So would you consider what they call a breath? Breath? Not, I think that's what it's called. Like people who really love to push the envelope on breath.
[01:09:04] Jeff: [01:09:04] Or you just want to make sure we're talking about the same book. I think it's breath by James. Yeah. James nester. Yeah. That's yeah, no, I wouldn't see that. I I wouldn't cut. I'm pretty set in my pattern. Now I'd say I've found a modality that works for me. With all that said I'm radically open. I think that there's a lot of different.
[01:09:28] More modalities and forms of breath work, and I'm still an Explorer. So yeah, I guess I'm still on the, in the exploratory phase, but at the same time I have a pretty regular practice that I do every day. Yeah.
[01:09:41] CK: [01:09:41] Yeah, it's because I came from a biomedical engineering background, so I look at it more mechanically breath is oxygen in carbon, dioxide out how you do that.
[01:09:56] Actually, it doesn't matter. But the more I do it, the more surprising super surprising wow, this is a. Very, different than normal breathing behavior. And it's a psychedelic almost right. And changes consciousness allowed me to open up and let go of some of the hidden psychosomatic.
[01:10:23] Trauma or stress or any kind of things that I took on, but couldn't let go of otherwise. So it's a very easy and very accessible to me. Yeah, breathwork is awesome because it, you can't do psychedelics every day. It's just not a practical thing. And I wouldn't want that either. Cause that becomes a dependency, but breath is, it could be a regular practice and it really.
[01:10:46] Yeah, excavate those psychosomatic stress a little bit more easier every day. So totally. Yeah. Switch gears a bit, if you don't mind, unless you want to say something else about on breathwork.
[01:11:03] Jeff: [01:11:03] No, other than what I found for me is it became an evolution to meditation. So meditation no longer became enough for me.
[01:11:10] I had a very regular morning and evening meditation practice that was really just centered on letting go and emptying my brain, which I think has a place. And I, and it still has a place in my life. Maybe not on a daily, but on a as needed basis. I do meditation, but breath work, I found had a psychosomatic reset outcome where it was.
[01:11:38] Spiritually invigorating. It was, spiritually connecting. It was physiologically invigorating and it also mentally distressed me. So it accomplished a lot of different things for me. That's why I put so much emphasis on breath work.
[01:11:55] CK: [01:11:55] It's a high leverage lever slash activity.
[01:11:59] Jeff: [01:11:59] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[01:12:01] CK: [01:12:01] Single action, multiple outcomes. I get it. I understand. You're mad. I get it. Cool. So I want to get into your life's work. Ultimately it's about how, to retitle it elevate the connection between soil and soul. What you're up to is. Educating power regenerative, organic agriculture, as well as sharing the possibility of that to the general consumers. So people like me who may be intellectually aware, but not necessarily in practice, actually doing anything about it.
[01:12:47] So I'm curious to know how can someone like me take steps towards that?
[01:12:54] Jeff: [01:12:54] Yeah. I think that the first and most essential step that every person can do right now to take steps towards that towards deepening, that connection is to get to know a farmer.
[01:13:11] I think that every single person on this planet should have a relationship with one being one person who's growing food for us. We've become so disconnected. So divorced as a society from where our food comes from and how that food was produced. That I believe that is the single greatest reason for our human health collapse that we're facing.
[01:13:36] We are facing a human health collapse. Like never seen before in recent history where chronic disease, cancer, autoimmune conditions, autism, obesity, add ADHD, all of these conditions are we're seeing dramatic inflection points that rates we've never seen in, recent human history. And I think we've seen this, March.
[01:13:59] At the same time that sort of rise in all of these chronic illnesses have run concurrence to our March away from connection to source to where food comes from and how it's produced. We live in a society of convenience. We live in a society of cheap food and in 1960 we were spending three times the amount on food of our U S GDP.
[01:14:23] Then we are, then we were on health care. So three times the amount on food than we were on healthcare today in 2020, we're spending twice as much on healthcare than we are on food. About 3.2 trillion of our gross domestic product is spent on healthcare than it is on food. And so ultimately what we're doing is we're still paying for it.
[01:14:44] We're just paying for it on the back end through, managing disease. And when I talk about this sort of. March away from source and this disconnection in 1945 during world war II, about 45% of all food purchased by us. Households was grown in our own backyard. So 45% of all food consumed was grown in our own backyard during the victory garden, Eric, during world war II today, about 18% of all the food we purchase comes from other countries.
[01:15:19] So we're now net importing about 18% of all of our food. And so we, as a society have just become so convenience that we don't even know where food comes from. We don't have a relationship with someone in our community yet where you live in orange County and where I live in Pennsylvania, I'm guarantee you that on a Saturday morning, there is some.
[01:15:41] Awesome. Farmer's market happening within a few miles of your home, where you can literally go and have a conversation with the very person who's producing your food. And
[01:15:52]Simply getting to know a farmer and building relationship with farmer has the potential to dramatically alter your human health outcomes.
[01:16:01] CK: [01:16:01] So I'll make it personal rather than talking theoretical and the economic impact and ecological devastation and climate change. Because to me, those are way too far out. I can relate to that on a personal basis. Theoretically, I get intellectually it get right intergenerational impact. All of those things I get, but on the personal lifestyle choices wise
[01:16:28] I would just admit publicly I, like my convenience.
[01:16:31] I like Amazon prime. I like to just push a button and things come to me and I do care about price, of course, but at the same time, I'm also a biohacker. So I am aware of the nutritional density importance. And ultimately for me, what I'm optimizing for is energetic. Optimization. How do I feel after that?
[01:16:55] Eat all my food, et cetera. However, there's a gap between what's available to me. As in, you are asking me to go out and talk to a farmer, wait out uncertain outcome. Like intellectually, I get, I'm looking forward to having that conversation with the farmer, but I can just push a button and then food comes my way with the lowest cost, highest convenience.
[01:17:18] So there's a little bit of a gap between, are there available resources where you can use AI or software to say, Hey, here's the optimization for nutritional density? Cost and convenience. So then I can just point to me to say, go to this particular farmer, that particular market to get.
[01:17:45] What you need. Cause I'm a again, publicly admission, I'm a busy person. I'm not going to just visit this market just for the heck of it, because until you find something awesome,
[01:18:00] Jeff: [01:18:00] yeah, I am. And, at the same time I'm not in any way suggesting you become some kind of a Luddite and stop.
[01:18:09] Your normal behaviors. That's not at all what I'm suggesting, but you do take time for daily exercise. You do to take time for daily meditation and movement and all these other tools that you use. What I am suggesting is we have to begin to think of it in terms of concentric circles. I think there's sort of those degrees of separation that we all know like how we've become separated.
[01:18:30] And now we need to think about degrees of reconnection and so sure not everyone has the. Ability to stop what they're doing on a day-to-day or week-to-week basis and go visit a farm or a farmer's market. What I would challenge all of us to do is okay.
[01:18:49] Once a month, there is a spiritual practice. There is a there is a Self-realization and self-actualization, that happens in the act of simply getting to know a farmer. So maybe once a month to say, okay, on this Saturday morning, I'm going to take a two hour block of time and I'm going to go visit this farmer's market.
[01:19:12] And I'm going to stock up for the week or for the, for a couple of weeks. And I'm going to learn a little bit about how agriculture works and I'm going to have real intimate. Conversations with these growers that are doing it right. That are, growing food in a regenerative organic way. I want to, carve out two hours a month, two or one hour a month to, into an in vibe in that sort of process, because it does something to you beyond the food itself.
[01:19:39] And of course, other day, to day moments, a moment. Sure. There's. There's all kinds of technology that's bubbling up that is allowing you to have really good food grown in really healthy soil delivered right to your door. So it's both, but all I'm suggesting is, that as we begin to reconnect with agriculture, that we treat it as a spiritual practice that we carved carve out a a discipline in our daily doing.
[01:20:08] That would reconnect us to source. And if you can't go to a farmer's market, then maybe the next concentric circle is once a week, you're going to go to an independent grocery store where that grocery store is very hyper-focused on local food. And you begin to cut down on these degrees of separation.
[01:20:25] And it's not to say you don't stop shopping at Amazon or whole foods, but it's starting to add in these new rituals that begin over time to change you. Does that make sense? It does.
[01:20:37] CK: [01:20:37] I thank you for breaking down for parents it's odd around all of this. And I think it circles back nicely to how we started even this conversation.
[01:20:49] While we're talking about aura rings, I'm not saying to use technology for the sake of just just automate all of my decisions, but it does make things a little bit more accessible. And the same thing with media, what we're doing here, we're producing media. In such a way that, Hey, I really relate to that Jeff Guy let me try on some of the things that he suggests.
[01:21:11] I really relate to that CK guy. You're right. He's whole journey around being a technologist. You're now a specialist to now. In my mind, the way I would articulate me would be integration analyst. So you actually look at things holistically rather than just one thing over the other. So I'm curious cause you have you, were the managing director of a publishing company and a slash what's, by the way.
[01:21:42] Okay, great. So your, title officially is chief impact officer, big title. I love that too, by the way. And how does it feel to have that kind of a chief
[01:21:52] impact officer title?
[01:21:55] Jeff: [01:21:55] Yeah, I need to differentiate. So in 2016, after I fell ill I had always been around Rodale inc, working there, but then J I Rodale our founder.
[01:22:05] He started a nonprofit called the Rodale Institute, and that's where I work today. I had been invited to serve on the board of directors of the Rodale Institute in 2015. And after spending one year on the board, I fell more and more in love with this work. I began to feel a calling to the work, a spiritual calling.
[01:22:26] And through that descent into my sickness and being on medical leave. And that whole season ultimately led me to ask some big questions about what I, really wanted to do with the rest of my life. And I knew, like I knew in my heart of hearts, that media and publishing was not my longing. It wasn't my hearts.
[01:22:51] Ambition any longer. And I had seen the work of Rodale Institute, which was this nonprofit that was focused on science, around helping farmers to adopt these regenerative organic practices. It was a global nonprofit, but under marketed under it wasn't realizing its full potential.
[01:23:16] And so when I began to feel a little better and I got back to work at the publishing company, I had some conversations with some other board members and I said, I think I want to leave what I'm doing in order to go work with the Rodale Institute full time. And so everyone was very supportive of that because the Institute was about to embark on a new frontier and a real, we call ourselves a 70 year old startup.
[01:23:41] And so I became the chief impact officer actually made up my own title because in my, work here at Rodale Institute, we don't measure our success on profits. We measure our success on impact. And so my job is to make sure I maximize the impact of the organization.
[01:23:59] CK: [01:23:59] Yeah. Ask that question specifically, because you're effectively, your title is to help change people's behavior.
[01:24:09] You're leaning a movement towards regenerative, organic agriculture, rodel itself. It's a 70 year old startup is being leading that movement from organics now regenerative. And then you also very well versed in media. And now you're getting into the technology because in my mind, those two are very scalable levers, media and technology.
[01:24:34] So I'm curious to know, as you think about leading this movement as a chief impact officer, it was a very dedicated this is your dharmic path. How do you leverage these two very powerful modalities? As a way to empower in shifts massive the awareness towards regenerative, organic
[01:24:59] Jeff: [01:24:59] Sure. Yeah. And, regenerative organic agriculture as a. As an idea can be esoteric to a lot of people. But at the, same time, it's foundational to all life and what we've found. And so we've been around for 70 years. Okay. We've been primarily an organization driven by science and, driven and led by scientists.
[01:25:22] And so therefore the organization has been unwavering in its mission for seven decades. But we've been undervaluing. The brand, we've been undervaluing, the story that we hold in it and we've been under marketing ourselves. And so our job is really to help grow the global influence of the brand of Rodale Institute.
[01:25:42] And if we can do that, if we can grow our awareness, then more and more consumers can begin to embrace this idea for themselves. They can begin to put pressure on big food companies and on farmers ultimately. To begin producing food in a more regenerative organic way, which is which we found through our science does mitigate and sequester carbon.
[01:26:04] It does reverse the effects of climate change. It cleans up our planet and the people consuming the food get healthier in regenerative, organic agriculture, everything in the system gets better and better over time. So we're ultimately trying to, lead a movement that would drive consumer demand for food that's produced in a regenerative organic way.
[01:26:26] And by so doing big, industry will follow. So we're trying to really tell our story. We're amplifying it through media and technology, and it's been amazing to be able to borrow from my media toolbox, if you will to be, able to apply that thinking here to this nonprofit.
[01:26:48] CK: [01:26:48] I don't know if you guys already doing this, but one of the things that's really obvious is to have essentially like a podcast network or something that focused various areas of the story that you're trying to tell, because for me, I'm an avid podcast turf, but I'm also a podcast listener as well.
[01:27:08] I would love to hear more stories, inspiring stories about, let's say how food heals, one's body, your story, or how it impacts our longevity how it impacts soil and farming, how it impacts a harmony with nature, how it connects to climate change ultimately. So a variety, a number of angles.
[01:27:29] I will love to consume it personally. I don't know if that's already in the pipeline, but that's
[01:27:35] Jeff: [01:27:35] yeah we've been, this year, my team, and I have put a major, emphasis on just getting us on more podcasts and it has had a profound impact on our brand on the kinds of people we're attracting to our work.
[01:27:50] And I myself have had the, humble privilege of going on shows like yours. To tell our story, but every time we get to tell our story, the phone rings, the emails come in. We were just featured on a movie called kiss the ground. If you haven't watched that movie yet,
[01:28:06] great movie.
[01:28:07] We were featured in that movie and about a week after the movie came out I was out at Rodale Institute on a Saturday morning doing something and I ran into this father and son who were touring our facility, our global headquarters. And I started a conversation with them. I asked them what they were doing, where they were from and they said, Oh, we're here for a tour.
[01:28:26] We were watching the movie kiss the ground last night. And by the way, we live in Chicago, Illinois, and we watch a movie around four 30 in the afternoon. And I said to, my dad had got him off from work for three days. Why don't we get in the car and drive to Rodale? So they drove 14 hours through the nights.
[01:28:45] Just, yeah, it just goes to show the power of media. To amplify this transformational work that we're doing, right?
[01:28:57] CK: [01:28:57] So maybe one may venture to say there may be a documentary in the pipe as well at some point. Yeah.
[01:29:04] Jeff: [01:29:04] Yeah, I think so. I think we're really focused right now on earned media because we're S we're in startup mode, so we don't have these we don't have robust media budgets, so we're relying on people like you that have audiences to help tell our story and get the word out.
[01:29:19] So thank you for this opportunity to come on your show.
[01:29:22] CK: [01:29:22] Of course. I'll throw a little bit of a wish list your way. This is something that I, want personally, so I would love to maybe have a 90 day protocol. To follow such that, Hey, here's the steps you can do to improve your body improve your longevity.
[01:29:45] You may not see it right now right away, but ultimately we've done. Our research is actually good for you in the longterm. And the reason I say that because again, food is something that I consume. I immediately receive some kind of gratification of satiation pace, et cetera, but the long-term impact of.
[01:30:07] On Jevity health and everything that you had just talked about through your own story. I don't see it yet. Yeah. And if there's a protocol that shows that trajectory easily, I'll totally do it because I don't want to do that, frankly.
[01:30:23] Jeff: [01:30:23] Yeah. Let me respond to that because you said something earlier when you were talking about your, in your bio hacking in patient life that you, and I live We at Rodale Institute, we run long-term studies.
[01:30:38] We actually housed the longest running side by side comparison of organic and conventional grain crops in the world. So it's this 40 year study where we've been, we have a 12 acre 72 plots study where we literally have plots of like conventionally grown corn, genetically modified corn, that's sprayed with Roundup and all kinds of other chemicals grown directly next to these regenerative organic.
[01:31:02] Plots of corn and other grains and that's one study. And what we found in that one study, I would take me a while to unpack, but it's profound and you can read more on our website, but then we just started a new study a couple of years ago called the vegetable systems trial. And this is the first study of its kind in the world where we're growing vegetables that you and I would purchase at the grocery store.
[01:31:25] Some of them are, some of the plots are managed using synthetic. Kemp chemicals, pesticides, herbicides, and some of the plots are, grown in a regenerative organic way. And we're, and this is the first time we've taken land at the Rodale Institute and transitioned it from organic to conventional.
[01:31:43] So we're actually degrading the health of the soil over time. We're about three years into this study. And what we're ultimately trying to do through this study is answer the question is organic food truly healthier and more nutrient dense for me? Is it really. Because no one's ever proved that. And so through this study, Rodale is is looking at that and we're, we just got some data back from our third year.
[01:32:08] And we found w where we actually send off all of our samples to a third party verified lab that uses very sophisticated equipment and imaging technology. And this laboratory found one 26 different phytonutrients in. The organic produce that came out of the study, 26 phytonutrients. So this isn't macronutrients, this is like phytonutrients, like the littlest stuff that makes you and I healthy on a mat on a micro level, 26 phytonutrients that, exists at levels 100 to 700 times higher in the organic produce than in our conventional produce.
[01:32:49] And that's only after three years. And the reason we commit to such long-term studies at Rodale Institute is because biological processes take a long time to unfold. They don't happen in nine months. They don't happen. They happen in nine years, you can't rush biology. And I know we are all trying to biohack our way to better health, but you can't force the soil to do something it's not designed to do.
[01:33:11] So I think that there is something to be learned there for all of us that If we truly want to be the healthiest, most act self-actualize humans, we do need to slow down. We do need to take time for our nourishment, for our food, and sure. There's convenient ways to have that delivered to our home and to maximize that, but healthy food grown in healthy soil.
[01:33:41] Does take time and maybe that's, worth slowing down a little bit for,
[01:33:49] CK: [01:33:49] yeah, for sure. I think you quoted the founder of Rodel, healthy food.
[01:33:55] Jeff: [01:33:55] Healthy soil, healthy food equals healthy people. That was J I wrote is original mission statement is original thesis for our work. He wrote these words on a chalkboard in may of 1942.
[01:34:07] And this has been the guiding light to our work ever since.
[01:34:11] CK: [01:34:11] Yeah. I really love that. Ideas of popping in my head. Cause you guys are already doing the research. In my mind as an entrepreneur, I think about, Hey, if you want to educate the the public to the, convert, you may just as well send them or sell them kits Hey, for your home garden, do this and just easy step one, two, three, and then you can experience it yourself.
[01:34:39] So that way it's very sustainable. You educated them at the same time. It's not just some. Know, esoteric, theoretical thing. They're actually experienced it. And then the more they care about their garden, the more they will care about the mission when they take on. So yeah. Any last thoughts before we complete our I know that you're you have a, one clocks.
[01:35:01] I want to be respectful.
[01:35:04] Jeff: [01:35:04] Thank you. Yeah I think we're standing at a moment in human history where This is the greatest and most important work of our time, in my opinion. And I say that because there is we've, we, I think the, year in which we're we find ourselves has exposed a lot of frailties to a lot of our systems.
[01:35:28] Our, supply chains became massively disrupted this spring when the pandemic hit and we saw grocery shelves laid bare because of our reliance on imported food. We saw, we were seeing human health. Epidemics at proportions we've never seen before the COVID crisis in and of itself we're the United States has some of the highest mortality rates I believe.
[01:35:52] And I think a lot of it has to do with the current state of health in this country. So we've exposed a lot of frailties that doesn't even touch on climates and all of the perils that we're facing. Societaly right now because of the way we treat the earth. But I found myself speaking at a virtual conference this past September for the United nations.
[01:36:14] They have their global day of action, and I was honored to be given an opportunity to speak there. And the United nations has its 17 SDGs, the sustainability goals. And as I was preparing my speech, I went one by one for each one of those 17 goals. And I found that regenerative organic agriculture could actually be the solution to 15 out of the 17 goals set forth by the United nations.
[01:36:43] If we took all of our farmland in this country alone and began to transition it to this new way of producing food without the reliance of pesticides or herbicides, working with biology instead of chemistry. We could heal all of the world's greatest problems simply by changing the way we farm. And I, know that you and I are talking here this week.
[01:37:03] Post-election, we're literally the week after the election and the earth seems to be just exhaling a little bit and. Yeah, there's this, there is still a divide that remains, I happen to live in Pennsylvania where historically we've been a red state, and we, and Pennsylvania, they say was the one of the catalysts to flipping the election, but yet just divide remains.
[01:37:27] And that, hurts me inside. And I wonder if, is it possible that food and agriculture could become the thing that unites us all? Because at the end of the day, we all eat three times a day. And if we all can unite around a better way of producing food in this country, everything could get better. And so I think I would just end with those thoughts and that idea.
[01:37:53] CK: [01:37:53] Yeah, for sure. Dude, I can talk to you for hours.
[01:37:59] Jeff: [01:37:59] Let's do it again for
[01:38:01] CK: [01:38:01] sure. I absolutely. I'm so looking forward to our next one
[01:38:06] let me take a moment to just acknowledge you, Jeff, and thank you so much for being here. Generously sharing your time that you can never get back.
[01:38:14] You're right with me, with my audience and sharing your story, sharing your struggled. And the vision ensuring the path what's possible. If we actually pay attention to how we grew our food, because that is a fundamental building block. As you said earlier, we all eat three times a day and the quality of a life really depends on the quality of food that we take in.
[01:38:41] We want a greater quality of life greater and aspiration, greater vision self-actualization. The food itself literally is the fuel that allows us to reach the highest of Heights. So thank you so much for, just really talk about beautifully this vision on behalf of Rodale Institute I really am inspired to learn more about what you guys up to, and I will do better in terms of going out and talking to a farmer's market.
[01:39:16] Farmers and take on these new practices. Thank you so much for being on the show.
[01:39:20] Jeff: [01:39:20] Yeah, it's a real honor to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I too have very much enjoyed our conversation and thank you for the beautiful work you're doing in the world to to help shed light on all these powerful leaders and powerful ideas.