Joshua Fields is Executive Director of Consciousness Hacking, a global community in over 50 cities focused on the intersection of modern technologies, ancient wisdom and human flourishing. He holds degrees from Oxford University and CIIS, and in a former life was a Morgan Stanley analyst and amateur boxer.

We talked about:

  • Podcasting is a lifehack for deep networking
  • The feedback loop is happening right now
  • Boxing Is a metaphor of existence (and it gave him fitness and confidence)
  • You build your character more from your failures than your successes
  • The benefit of acute stress vs. chronic stress
  • Signatures of transcendence
  • The physical and mental games on an elite level
  • Navy seal’s 40% rule
  • The necessity of earning wisdom through suffering
  • 2 paths of separating passion/work and combining bliss/work
  • His 2.5-hour morning ritual to help him achieve lucidity and clarity
  • Vipassana, improv, and inner dialog help you finetune your subtle sensations
  • The movement of Consciousness Hacking
  • The benefits of ultrasonic stimulation and deep stillness
  • How lucid dream gives 15 years of practice
  • Benefits fo fasting

Links:

JOSHUA FIELDS 7:22
This is such a beautiful setting to have a podcast. Yeah, I used to have my own podcast actually. Did you? Yeah. It was called Neo gnosis. Knowledge. 20 episodes.

CK LIN 8:02
Why did you stop?

JOSHUA FIELDS 8:08
it lost its charge. For you can Oh, yeah, it was a kind of more of a project rather than a consistent platform. At least that’s how it felt my body.

Yeah, I’ve started to learn about myself. Like the best way, I tend to work is in short, sharp bursts. And then relaxation. So like project work works really well for me. nine to five, not so much.

CK LIN 8:32
Yeah. was perfect. Now you end in charge of Consciousness Hacking. Yeah.

So for me, a little dizzy. This is my second podcast.

JOSHUA FIELDS 8:45
Oh, sweet. Okay.

CK LIN 8:47
My first podcast, I stopped up your 12 episodes, or six episodes rather. And I realized, because I was basically speaking to the void, and there’s nothing coming back was like, I was attached to the positive feedback loop. Then my friend and I, a few years later, fan, and I started having conversations about Joe Rogan is the king of podcast rating. And my friend distinguished for me, Joe Rogan, one to 100. was, was okay. But now he’s at 1000. Plus, he is amazing. And when I realized I really enjoyed his kind of conversation, yeah, is really an excuse for me to have conversations with amazing, smart, motivated people.

JOSHUA FIELDS 9:38
It’s like a life hack for deep networking. And I hate the word networking. But it’s just a really great, great excuse to sit down for a couple of hours with people you want to speak with.

CK LIN 9:52
So I realized, for myself, even if all the money in the world, I would do this for the rest of my life, enjoy. So So now there’s no attachment to the positive feedback. The feedback loop is happening right now. Yeah. So for me, this is very fulfilling, and thank you so much for saying yes to that.

JOSHUA FIELDS 10:15
A pleasure.

CK LIN 10:16
How long ago was your podcast for you?

JOSHUA FIELDS 10:19
Was my podcast? I think I’ve started it in September 2017, August 2017. And it went to August 2018. Yeah.

CK LIN 10:31
Okay. So you’ve stopped recently?

JOSHUA FIELDS 10:35
Yeah, yeah. About a year ago. Yeah, get my podcast was back. But it’s funny being on the other side of it. Yeah.

CK LIN 10:44
I mean, now that you’re in charge of consciousness hacking, potentially, because you dealing you’re interacting with tons of leaders, investors in this space, and say, great opportunity to broaden now that you have a platform, right, and build that potentially. It’s an invitation,

JOSHUA FIELDS 11:02
yeah, to, to deliver my spiel,

CK LIN 11:05
deliver it, share it. Because it’s all about community building, right? There are so many people who are interested in this space right now. You know, we wanted to continue the discussion. But before we go there, I want to talk to you about boxing a little bit. So you share with me before we start recording that you’ve been boxing for 10 years.

And I’m I’ve just started my boxing ritual. And I gotta tell you, it’s not fun being punched in the face. Mike Tyson said Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Right? So theoretically, I understood that. And why I got into it is like a life hack. Because I realized why we actually we get punched in the face metaphorically, all the time in life is part of that part of being alive part of being an entrepreneur. So I want to say Oh, hey, let’s really lean into that. enhance my tolerance for discomfort, I’m the type of person who enjoys the discomfort. But literally right now just getting punched in the face all the time. It’s just not fun. So share with me a little bit about your boxing career. And then, and why do you start? And Then why’d you stop? A little bit? That’d be really great.

JOSHUA FIELDS 12:36
Sure. So I grew up in Glasgow, Scotland, and I had a really relatively like comfortable middle-class upbringing. And my godfather was heavily involved in the Scotland boxing scene. something like that. Something like that. And I started going unboxing classes in this place, Denison, which is really rough part of Glasgow when I was 13 years old, and there was a kind of middle class like private school kids going to like the nitty gritty, East End of Glasgow, and

CK LIN 13:13
a grittier part of town.

JOSHUA FIELDS 13:15
Oh, yeah, absolutely. We’re, yeah. And I didn’t really want to go. My dad thought it was going to be good for my spirit. my godfather thought you don’t have a choice here. Yeah. And character building for the first six months, man, I, I despise that. Because there I was going in and it was pretty intimidating. I don’t know if you know, much of it, like Glasgow or Scotland. Been no, it’s, it’s a tough old place. And, and so for the first six months, I really hated it. But then I started sparring. And I started actually, when I was about 14, started sparring, and started, you know, really getting into it.

CK LIN 13:58
And talk to me a little bit about hating it, to liking it, that that transition? Because I’m actually right in that six into the six months right now.

JOSHUA FIELDS 14:13
A very basic answer is we start to enjoy what we’re good at. Um, so I think there’s a positive correlation between our level of utility and our level of skill. And then that reaches a plateau and later years, I think when it loses its fun because it becomes a chore. So I think there was a bit of an inflection point was like, Hey, I can actually do this, like, I really enjoy the the fitness aspects. And also confidence, like I was quite a shy kid, and quite a skinny kid. And I think that played on my psyche, in various regards. And so by the age of 15, I was fighting in the Scottish National Championship,

CK LIN 14:50
oh, man, you were in high level, competing and

JOSHUA FIELDS 14:53
competing at a high level. Yeah. And I was having a few fights. And I really, really became my, my thing. And what boxing taught me, so I did it from the age of 13, all through school and all throughout University. So I went to university, and I was the captain and then president, my university boxing team.

CK LIN 15:15
Okay, so you were competing on a high level

JOSHUA FIELDS 15:18
decent level, yeah, decent level, but it taught me so so many things when the first was. Boxing is a metaphor for existence. you keep getting hurt. And the option isn’t to just go down, but you have to keep getting back up. And that’s certain if you’re not forced into that by life circumstances, that’s a very hard skill set to train, right. And so I think part of the problem that we have, with this modern, rich privileged lifestyle of the West is comfortable, we’re comfortable, and we don’t grow from comfort, we grow from discomfort. And so I think we have to set the conditions by which we suffer to such an extent that we’re actually growing not too much because chronic stress is terrible, but acute stressors to the system, is actually very, very healthy for a living system. And so it was a metaphor for, for growth and for life, and it gave me a lot of confidence and fitness. And it just felt really good to be fit. And I say past tense, because I’m nowhere near that moment, nowhere near there. But anyway, when I was in my teenage years, I was really, really going for and if I, I think I could have taken it to a higher level if I really wanted to go for it. I think my level was such when I was 16 or 17, I could have taken more of the professional route.

But I was more of an academic dude. And I want to go to university and things like that. And I took a year and then I went to university, and I started training, training with a different trainer. And I’d won all of my fights apart from one up into this point. I went to university. And then I lost the first, the second and the third. And I had this run of losses. And it was for the first time in my life that I was consistently failing at something right. And that hurt my ego. Like hell but it was also the probably the most profound lesson I’ve had growing up. Because things had come like relatively smoothly to me until that point. But to lose so consistently, publicly, like in front of friends and family, right. It hurt. And then I became captain of the team of the Oxford boxing team. And then we were going to fight Cambridge in the varsity match and my captain year so this is the big fight, right? Yeah, Oxford vs. Cambridge, varsity leading a team of nine boxers training 10 times a week, training camps, high altitude and 10 years. Okay. And it came to this, this Oxford Cambridge fight my second one. And I remember standing overlooking into the ring, having had this consecutively, this like, consecutive amount of losses. And I stood and I looked over in the ring of this place called the trucks in London. And it was the first time in my life that I pre cognitively knew what was going to happen. And I looked into the ring, and I said, I know for a fact, I’m going to win this. And we’re going to win six, three in the night. There was just a clear, transcendent, like a sense that this is happening. And there we  won and we won and I really felt that that experience was like, even though you keep messing up, you keep failing, like keep going, like your failures, build your character more than your Wednesday. And it was beautiful man. So I stopped that when I was 22. So we are almost 10 years ends with a high.

CK LIN 19:01
So So let’s talk about that. Forget that. unpack that a little bit. Let’s see, where do we start? Do you empty yourself up? Oh, actually, and then before I even ask that you still competing on a high level? Is it a mental game? Or is it more of a physical game?

JOSHUA FIELDS 19:20
They’re the same.

CK LIN 19:22
Say a little more about that.

JOSHUA FIELDS 19:26
Okay, so here’s the really interesting point. I think when I was boxing, I thought it was a physical game. The mental side was here I am facing guys that I know, like, there’s a lot of fear. Like even mike tyson says, like, he’s he feels he felt deep fear every time he went into the ring. You know, it’s very raw, Primal, this guy wants to hurt you, you want to hurt him. And you can’t pass the ball like in rugby. Kind of like, like ask for like a timeout. No, no, you’re just gonna get hit, right. So I thought, I always thought it was a physical game, predominantly. But then I started meditating after my boxing career. And now I am this at this place that I know that if I were to go back to fighting with what I know now, through the of the mind, I’d been in a much, much better position, that if boxers actually integrated more of the mental aspect, visualization and calmness, watching your pain, I’m really feeling it. Rather than trying to pretend it’s not there, I think a lot of people is a coping mechanism and sports is to try to shut out the pain. And from what I’ve understood through meditation is that’s actually counter productive,

CK LIN 20:43
don’t suppress it,

JOSHUA FIELDS 20:45
Feel it fully. And then you just realize it’s just another sensation. And you know, the 40% rule of the Navy SEALs. And like, if you think you’re done nearly 40% of the way there now, right? You know, our body and our brain has this huge buffer, right? To keep us safe. We can go so much further. And I don’t think I’ve ever taken to myself taking myself. As far as I never took myself I think, as far as I know, know that my mind can grow. Right. So I would love to get back into some to some degree with this more holistic approach.

CK LIN 21:18
Nice. I love that. Yeah. So let’s say someone’s been metaphorically punched in the face in life right now. What would you say to that person? Because it’s, theoretically people get it right, the 40% rule you hear people say and you know, top athlete, they say, you know, you’re so much more capable. And then what you think you are so you know, these things we hear a lot, right? cliche. Right.

But when you’re in the middle of being punched in the face, when you’re physically or when you’re metaphorically like, failing. And it’s not just like, oh, man, this freakin sucks. And any tactical suggestion? Well, I’m, I’m wondering now and you are speaking to that person, right And sure, and being like, anyway, sparring and punch in the stomach, punch it in the head, the stomach. So the worst, right? It’s 10 times worse than the face. here is the thing: on the sidelines, like, Oh, it’s no big deal. But when you literally mean punch by someone, closing range, takes all of the breath out of you, then you’re just like, stunned.

JOSHUA FIELDS 22:24
I would much rather be punched in the nose and punched in the kidneys. Much right. So first of all, I think there’s a certain humility that comes from it. Like, if you see a fighter, who’s got a big ego, and he’s pumping his chest out, he’s probably not a very experienced fighter. Like humility, I think goes hand in hand with knowing that like, we’re all vulnerable and fragile to getting hurt. And there’s a lot of luck involved. So I think like, if we can if you can integrate the humility piece, just like yeah, I’m getting hit. without it. And this is the key: without collapsing. Because right, there’s this fight, flight, freeze, flop, right. These are coping mechanisms for trauma, and getting hit in the face is traumatic, if your default operating mechanism is flight, which I think a lot of it is in this day and age because if you fight your you know, civilization only like as accepted, especially if you come from like a more of a middle-class background.

So how do you maintain humility without collapsing?

And I think we’re all working on that day by day, every day. Like, I like the fact that her part of me wants to run away. And part of me wants to, you know, boxing, I think, told me like to just keep pushing forward. I think the big, big thing about boxing is sometimes when I’m like getting like when I’m fearful, but like doing something, yeah. I have this metacognition that says, hey, but do you remember that time where you really did when I go into ringing get punched? But you did it? Yeah. You know.

CK LIN 24:05
So I’m the kind of guy who enjoys the discomfort hands. You know, hape, ayahuasca, CrossFit and boxing, and some people watch me on the sideline, or ice bath, and somebody’s watching me on the side. It’s like, Man, this guy’s “crazy” for wanting to do that. But for me, it’s there’s a lot of spiritual growth that comes into that. Because then I’m willingly going there. And getting into the ice bath and doing hape, or the ayahuasca, or the boxing or whatever it may be, knowing that it’s going to be challenging. But from that, that, I think Viktor Frankl says it so well: between stimulus and response, there’s a lot of space in that space lies in our freedom, growth. So I can fight flight, freeze or flop, as you said, I choose to continue to move forward anyway.

JOSHUA FIELDS 25:04
So I do, I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently, that this celebration of spiritual suffering, how much of it is real? And how much of it is a residue of a Judeo Christian like Protestant ethic that says, if you want to get to God, you have to, you know, bear the burden of the cross of suffering? You know, it’s in built into our theology. And in Buddhism, life is suffering, right? You know, so something I’m playing with, and I’m open to exploring is, how true is that? Like? How, how necessary is suffering as a prerequisite to spiritual growth? My experience thus far, is that it is necessary. It is necessary. I’m curious as to whether or not though that is a residual belief. And actually, maybe the path could be lighter?

CK LIN 25:57
For sure. Absolutely. So from my own spiritual journey myself, I realized that we joy and fulfillment and self-realization is available within that option, right. between stimulus and response. But I don’t know if I can get to that point. Without a different path. To that point, I don’t know if that makes any sense. It’s hard to articulate this, you know, I’ll just use myself as an example, in a scene I was a ceremony, it’s painful. I, you experienced both the joy, but also at the same time, you also experienced moments that you’re not so proud of, as an example, right? The painful part, all of it, right? So could I have gotten the lesson from an embodied way without actually witnessing the suffering? I wonder

JOSHUA FIELDS 27:03
what I think what the suffering represents is like, if a plant ceremony or something, it’s, it’s oftentimes the stuff that we’ve refused to feel, because it’s been too painful. And so our body has this very deep intelligence to say, Hey, your system can handle the shame, the guilt, the fear. So we’re going to put these block energy blockage layers, so you don’t have to feel. And then you move into some, you know, transformational work, and you’re feeling all the things that have been suppressed, right? And so really, like, I think suffering is often just a proxy for feeling what is already there. It’s not necessarily creating anything new.

And spiritual growth is anything, it’s the acceptance, the allowing, of the whole spectrum of reality, which isn’t asymmetric. I wish, you know, I wish reality was like curve to the upside, you know, there’s reality is also like, tragic and horrific, and also simultaneously joyful and beautiful. Sport gives us an opportunity to force us to look at the paint. And as a result, I think opens us up to the totality of our experience.

CK LIN 28:23
I’m thinking back right now. I mean, there’s so many metaphors and guys go with that, you know, it could be going to be an entrepreneur, you know, you get the highs of highs, the highs, but also the lowest of lows, right, in any kind of meaningful relationships beginning with similar the highs of highs, and the lowest of lows that almost no one knows about, unless you open to share with your close group of people. And or plant medicine ceremonies, similar, right. You experience all of that. So you feel that going back to you inquiry: is suffering necessary for growth? What do you say to that?

JOSHUA FIELDS 29:04
My experience so far is yes. But I don’t know if it’s.

CK LIN 29:09
I’m in an open inquiry. I think so. Yeah. So I’m curious. Now that you’re, how did you get into the consciousness hacking space? So did you always know that you wanted to get in there?

JOSHUA FIELDS 29:31
Oh, no, dude. So I started my career in finance. I was at Morgan Stanley. Selling if foreign exchange and like interest rates, MIT FX, FX, EM sales I was doing at Morgan Stanley. And I don’t know I said, interest rate, so many options, right. And I did that for some time and wasn’t particularly fulfilled, and realized I wanted to explore really, the things that really turned me on so used to like, come back from like, a long day at work and listen to Terence McKenna. Alan Watts, and something me was like, whatever this is, why is it that I can read an ethics morning? brief? And like lose concentration in seven seconds? Reading Alan Watts boot from front back without losing concentration, like hardly at all? Something that was it? Well, maybe this is the thing that lights you up? Like, what? What would it be like if you were to explore consciousness? So I moved out to San Francisco two years ago, from the UK, to do a master’s in philosophy and consciousness. And consciousness haking with our at present is this synthesis between the head and the heart? A lot of people I’m sure, you know, in the consciousness world, and for your listeners, I’m doing, like, earmarks, quotation marks, and air quotes. Yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of notes, there’s quite ethereal, new agey. can be, this is hacking was a community in San Francisco that was this real synthesis between, let’s think deeply and transcendental. But without losing our grounding, and the rational and the pragmatic.

CK LIN 31:12
That’s right, we live in this physical realm, right? It’s not meant to us I think, I love this phrase from vipassana enough. Essentially, we studied the mechanics of the Buddha achieved enlightenment or self-awareness. And then they also made a distinction about, Hey, there are these people who dedicate their life to self-transcendence, we call them monks and nuns, right? And then there’s the rest of us were householders. And then they distinguish that hey, is actually much more difficult for householders because we are the responsibilities in addition to our desire for self-realization, self-awareness. So it’s, to me anyway, it’s much more difficult to balance this-worldly pursuits. In addition to the spiritual journey,

JOSHUA FIELDS 32:02
yeah, and your worldly pursuits. And this is Karma Yoga, right? It’s the yoga of, of action, then your spiritual path is actually fundamentally into intertwined with how you show up in the world, especially in this age, if we’re going to like continue that the Hindu or if we’re going to use Hindu mythology, is the Kali yuga. And supposedly, in the Kali yuga, it’s not about the retreat. It’s actually about action is the path to God and repeating Rams name over and over again is another path. But that’s a different story. Yeah.

CK LIN 32:41
So was there an was there a moment where you said, Hey, this is awesome. I want to pursue this full time as my profession because there are two schools of thought. one school of thought is Derek’s siver, the founder of CDbaby. he said, Hey, separate what gives you joy your hobbies with your passion from your you know, what, actually what you do to make a living? Because when they’re intertwined, then now your brain that concerns of like, Hey, I gotta make a buck with this thing. And then you lose is that spiritual charge, as you said earlier, right. So that’s one school of thought and that school of thought is, I think was Joseph Campbell, follow your bliss, right? If you it’s the dream if you can actually make a living from your passion and from your and you know, what gives you fulfillment? So love to hear your distinction between these two, quote unquote, path.

JOSHUA FIELDS 33:35
So repeat the first one again. So the second was to follow your bliss.

CK LIN 33:38
Right. The first one is separate separated? Uh huh.

JOSHUA FIELDS 33:42
I see. I’m sorry. I see what you’re saying. Yeah. So Campbell also said later on that he wishes he said follow your blisters that if you knew he updated it, and I know that now he said, he wish he said, Follow your blisters. Because follow your bliss can be a bit of a spiritual bypassing technique. I think that the mechanic and this so this is what I said to myself, CK I said, Okay, well, what if you just threw yourself into what you loved for two or three years? Like, what if it goes tits up? If it goes terribly wrong, the most the worst thing that’s happened, right, you’ve lost three years, you’ve tried it, you’ve gone for what you love, then you can go back, right? So really, it was just a sense of me saying, Okay, what if I tried this like, and from a really rational perspective, there’s the sense of, if I really enjoy something, there’s a higher probability, I’m going to be good at it. That’s right. So I think follow your bliss is really optimized for what you’re interested in, because that is a proxy for what you’re going to be most likely good at. Yeah. But when to go back, was there a moment or anything? There was actually a very clear moment. And I went, had some bodywork done. And bunch of unreleased stuff came up in the aftermath, anger, rage, and all came like flooding through my body. And I started like, letting it all out. But it felt like in a way that was clean, like, had some tough conversations, and really, like spoke like the deepest, most primal part of what I thought to be true. And with that expression came this perfect clarity. It was just this knowing of like, you’ve got to go to San Francisco, you’ve got to go to consciousness, you gotta go to now, man, I’ve never had clarity like that. I am a cost benefit analysis guy, you know, have checklists and boxes, right? It was clarity from emotional de-suppression, which is fascinating. I think we’re so stuck. We don’t we’re all confused, because we actually haven’t let our bodies’ wisdom come through.

CK LIN 35:58
So question there is I do plenty of plant ceremonies, plant medicine ceremonies, and then one of the things that I teach my clients regarding integration is, Hey, you, you’re going to have a lot of clarity and a lot of insights, a lot of epiphany that comes from to you, but don’t do anything with it yet. Just let it sit. Right? Did you let it sit? All right, you know, it’s more like just follow my realization, my inner knowing my impulse, just gonna go with it. So quit my job and just go.

JOSHUA FIELDS 36:33
So I’d already I already wasn’t with my job. I was still in this I was in a limited space anyway. So I think our body mechanics are actually programmed for different things. I want to make a distinction between impulse and intuition. Sure. And post feels a little bit more rushed, and snappy. Intuition feels clean. There’s a lucidity to this experience. And this felt very clean, and also felt light. And so I didn’t wait. I didn’t let it sit. And I also think like, as I start to learn my body more, some people are better attuned to setting with things. Other people’s body mechanics are actually more attuned to making more spontaneous decisions. I don’t know if you’ve done any human design.

CK LIN 37:25
Now. I’m not

JOSHUA FIELDS 37:25
Yeah, there’s definitely like systems to say, Hey, we’re all created in slightly different ways.

CK LIN 37:29
Hmm. Interesting. It’s not a one size fits all, nope, are more suitable to take action right away, some people are more suitable to just let it sit and develop that inner knowing.

JOSHUA FIELDS 37:41
I think so I think that is the beauty of reality, we have these permutations of matter that we call bodies, and they all have different ways of knowing and navigating reality if we truly listen to them. Having said that, have I been able to get that clarity back since then? Not really. That was the big breakthrough. So I know, I know what clarity feels like, you have a benchmark, I have a benchmark and know everything was clear. Since then,

CK LIN 38:11
so. Okay, so so in that also, do you try to get back to that space? Again? The moment of lucidity and clarity. Because it’s easy to want to chase that right. And also, it’s all there is an intention to cultivate that too. How do you separate the chase versus the intention?

JOSHUA FIELDS 38:43
silence helps. I’ve tried bodywork. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard. There’s, there’s a sense of Yes. The more the more I can tap into silence, the more clear things become. Yeah.

CK LIN 39:12
Awesome. So do you have like a daily ritual that you do or a weekly one? Where you essentially carve out the time that you need?

JOSHUA FIELDS 39:19
Yeah, I sat every day for an hour. First thing in the morning, first thing in the morning,

but I’m about to do a new morning routine. You wanna hear it? Got a 30-day challenge number starting July 1. Yes. Yeah, I know. They’ve named it publicly and I’ve named it on radio. I can’t go back. Okay. One-hour meditation the morning, okay, which is the pasta. Yeah. That I’m going straight to ashtonga yoga class for 90 minutes. And then right beside ashtonga yogaclass, there is a sauna and cold plunge. So I’m going to then go straight into the sauna for 20 minutes do some vagas nerve breath stimulation work, kinda like Wim Hof, but some more like actual targeted the vagus nerve, and also do some visualization while in the sauna, and then go straight into the plunge pool. And then I’ll be ready to start my day. So it’s going to take about two and a half hours in total, for the morning routine.

for me, that’s the perfect combination of mindful meditation body through Ashtanga and then breath work and stuff for vagus nerve and the mind body connection.

CK LIN 40:23
I love that. I’m a systems guy. So I love disciplines. I love rituals. Yeah, I love that. Thanks for sharing that

JOSHUA FIELDS 40:32
cool bus. Yeah, they’re there. Their main builders,

CK LIN 40:39
I love it so much that I actually bought icemaker to put in my home.

JOSHUA FIELDS 40:44
So I’d love to do this. So how long have you been bought an icemaker? Like, what do you mean?

CK LIN 40:50
So you see, so what I did is actually bought those like 20-pound ice makers, they just continuously produce ice all the time.

JOSHUA FIELDS 40:57
And this is there enough to put in a basket in the morning and

CK LIN 41:00
20 pounds is plenty sufficient for one batch but actually found a much better way. So you don’t even need to do that. Okay, you can get one of those industrial ice coolers. Yeah, and then just plug it in. And then we need to use it obviously, plug and plug it in so you don’t electrocute yourself, and it will stay the same temperature at all times.

JOSHUA FIELDS 41:20
So have you bought one yet?

CK LIN 41:21
and we don’t have enough space.

JOSHUA FIELDS 41:22
Yeah, it was like I live in San Francisco. I mean, there’s no chance in hell. I mean, I can’t even fit a bed into my apartment. But it’s cool.

CK LIN 41:29
But the ice makers Yeah.

JOSHUA FIELDS 41:30
Okay, maybe I should.

When I have my own place. Yeah, the first thing I’m getting is a plunge pool. Yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah. Tony Robbins.

CK LIN 41:43
Yes. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right now he’s, I think him and one half of the ones that really inspire me like, Tony Robbins does that too?

JOSHUA FIELDS 41:52
Maybe I should consider Well, no. So first thing in the morning is your timing it with your peak cortisol spike anyway. So you’re actually like attuning to the body’s natural rhythms of as soon as you wake up first 90 minutes of your cortisol is at its highest. So you’re actually Yeah, you’re doubling down in that effect. Yeah. shock, acute stress structure the system. But this is a really important thing, right? chronic stress is horrific for the body. We’re all chronically stressed: Food, toxins, noise. acute stress, very good for the body.

CK LIN 42:26
little caveat there is that’s a feeling when you’re sick on your really low on energy. Because these are additional stress. And that may actually push you into sickness. So that’s the thing to be cognizant that sure. Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. is. Yeah, Chinese medicine, we believe that you don’t want to actually inject a lot of coldness into your system, you feel like constantly always cold. It’s probably a good time to, you know, pull back on the ice bath or the or the cold smoothies or whatever it is. Right. Yeah, that’s that’s my personal experience. Do you do I have any sense scientific proof beyond that know, which is my personal experience? Yeah.

JOSHUA FIELDS 43:03
I mean, even like, Ayuveda and you know, if you if you’re I’m Pitta. Fire. Oh, it’s always hot. So those would be good for you, then yeah, this would be good for me.

CK LIN 43:17
Man, I love it. I really love that you are able to inject scientific understanding into your daily rituals. That’s awesome. There’s a lot of times where people just do something one thing they are fixed to that thing, and without any real thinking about the science or things beyond that.

JOSHUA FIELDS 43:37
Also, there’s also listening to your body, right? Like this universal one size fits all thing we have, like, if everyone just meditates for a day and has the same diet, it’s like, nope, our gut microbiome is are different, or genetics are different. Or we’ve got to just listen deeply to what is actually best for us.

CK LIN 43:52
So okay, so on that note, so let’s speak to our younger selves who are not so aware or intuned our mind, body, heart, and spirit.

JOSHUA FIELDS 44:01
How old are we going? How old are we going?

CK LIN 44:05
Let’s say college days college, or 20? Let’s, let’s say you know, 20s, where we have that, you know, inner awareness. Curious now, but maybe not so attuned to the body.

JOSHUA FIELDS 44:16
I’m still in my 20s.

CK LIN 44:17
Are you really? Yeah, no, shit.

JOSHUA FIELDS 44:19
Yeah. So I need to go back to college.

CK LIN 44:22
Wow. Amazing. That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s good. That’s awesome. Man. I’m surprised you because you, you know, act so much older than you are.

JOSHUA FIELDS 44:31
Yeah, it’s kind of sometimes it can be a bit of a problem for dating.

CK LIN 44:37
So going back to the days where you just began your journey of developing that awareness that intuition or inner knowing what tactical ways can you make a suggestion to our listeners of how you actually develop that awareness? Because it’s hard to discern. Because it’s all internal. It’s not something that you can just point to a scientific instrument or the scoreboard. Oh, yeah. You’re now at 85% or 10% more attuned to, then you will before this thing that you were doing,

yeah. So you mentioned vipassana. vippassanna allows you to get very good at noticing subtle sensations. Another interesting thing is, is some sort of acting or improv. So acting that has to be spontaneous. And at the moment, whereby you’re actually engaged with the feedback loop of the other person’s energy system, you start to become aware of these very subtle cues from other people like small shifts up small shift. improv is really good for that. I loved it. I did it for like three months. I absolutely loved it. I don’t know why I stopped time. Yeah. And then you can also dialogue. This sounds a little bit more hippy dippy. But you know, like asking your body like, What do you want? And

do you literally say, What do you want? Yeah, only your mind.

JOSHUA FIELDS 46:07
I mean, either or, and then trusted the body give some sort of signal. And this for me, oftentimes, the signal is that light, or is it heavy? This light, it’s like, Okay, try.

CK LIN 46:23
I like that. So asked similar questions through my podcast guests all the time. Some people flip coins. Some people have their meditation practice or somatic practice. I think it was Ben Talbert, who we know you know, a mutual friend of ours, he would literally ask his body: How do you feel? and notice the emotions, how the emotions arising his body as part of his practice. So let’s actually shift gears a little bit. So now you’re in charge of consciousness hacking and cultivating a community. And there’s a lot of energy that right now going into this space? How? And this is, how do I unpack that question? How do you? What do you plan to cultivate this movement or curate this energy now going to the space?

JOSHUA FIELDS 47:27
That’s the million dollar question.

CK LIN 47:29
Probably a billion dollars.

JOSHUA FIELDS 47:30
But yeah. So for those who aren’t aware of the subconscious, the second was started four years ago by a dear friend, Mikey Siegel. And he started as the global community, he wanted to say, hey, like, what if we applied our scientific and technological knowledge to higher states and awakening? Because people think these two things are antithetical. Of course, science and spirituality have nothing to do with each other. Well, like you said, Oh, it’s about the community around people asking those questions. We build tools that enhance the human experience. So it started out as a global community. And now we’re moving more into the conference. You came to our conference last month. Amazing. You had a good time. Amazing.

CK LIN 48:16
It was like the TED conference for conscious consciousness.

JOSHUA FIELDS 48:21
Good. People. I think people have generally had a good time. Yeah. So we’re having our conference. We’re wanting to do member-only community events. So at the moment, we’re doing more open events, but we really want to if you have our turnover is super high. People even come like 70 to 80% of each of our events is a new member is a new attendee super high. Never heard of you before. Yeah. And they’ve heard of us, but they’ve never been before. So we want to do like member-only events all throughout the world, and to establish a sense of community. I’d also spread more awareness, start creating our own content, right? Yeah. Yeah.

CK LIN 49:05
Good. So turning into like a media company, potentially,

JOSHUA FIELDS 49:08
I’m reluctant to say turning it into a media company. But having more of the media presence is one way to put it. Yeah.

CK LIN 49:18
That’s awesome. I love it.

JOSHUA FIELDS 49:20
So what was your experience like it awakened futures? For people who aren’t aware it was a conference on the intersection points of psychedelics, technology, and meditation?

CK LIN 49:31
Yeah, actually, let’s do a little distinction real quick. How would you define psychedelics? Because I got corrected by a ceremonialist to separate the plant medicine, pardon the psychedelics, but in my mind, actually, before leading the witness, how would you define psychedelics?

JOSHUA FIELDS 49:53
psyche is obviously from the Greek. mind/soul. they’re the same thing, Greek etymology. delic says I think the word injesting. I could be totally making that up. Mind injesting. these are substances that in inviting us into altered states of consciousness.

CK LIN 50:21
Yeah. Well, so that definition is super broad. Right? So caffeine could potentially under that umbrella to truly does alter our consciousness in some way. Yeah. Alcohol can be that too. Sugar alters our consciousness? Sure,

JOSHUA FIELDS 50:44
What is it? What is the there’s something about the level of depth that plays into this, like caffeine doesn’t really take me closer to my deeper experience? I don’t think many people’s. there’s something about deepening. But then that itself is subjective. So I’m gonna I don’t know.

CK LIN 51:00
Yeah. Tell me. I don’t have one. Yeah, I thought was talking to the guy who’d know.

JOSHUA FIELDS 51:08
And then there’s in entheogens which is another term. Yeah. I see them as alters of consciousness, bringing us closer to our deeper experience. Yeah.

CK LIN 51:27
Yeah, I’m the same way. So hence why I’m not so much of a stickler to this nuance of entheogens and psychedelics, plant medicine, because to me, if it deepens our awareness of our own consciousness, then to me is under the broad umbrella of psychedelic and entheogens. To me, they’re interchangeable. Yeah. Okay, what was my experience going back? Yes, yes, yes. I’m an amazing time. I really. So one of the things I as I progress in my own journey in life is the desire to meet like minded people. And psychedelics. Meditation, technology, these are my favorite subjects. So I love the quality of the people that were there. These are, to me, people who are not only philosophers, but they’re actually doing something about it. So I made plenty of investors, entrepreneurs, even ceremonialists. people who are grounded in reality, in this round, like, we study science, we study technology, and we also have a commitment to Alright, so there’s something beyond the physical realm. Right. So when I met plenty of mystics. Right? So we I met plenty of mystics, I made plenty of people who are also grounded in reality. So I definitely met plenty of people in my tribe.

good. Appreciate that. Good. Yeah. And the mission accomplished? Yeah,

a lot of energy there. A lot of different direction that this movement can go. And that’s the number one takeaway. Now exactly, where, which direction is going for the right one? To be determined. Or there’s certainly a lot of energies, very much activated.

JOSHUA FIELDS 53:25
Come back next year, my friend.

CK LIN 53:27
I hope that there’s something that we can all do in-between events this year and next year. In the in between time. So conferences bring high caliber people together to share their thoughts, right now. That’s where you want to go. But what about the in-between times or anything that you’re acting, to cultivate? to shape? The energy?

JOSHUA FIELDS 53:57
Yeah, we’re doing, we’re going to do some so member-only events, like I said, but also just standard events. And we’re going to do two series. One is The Awakened future spinoff series. So between now and the next conference, we’re going to have some of the themes and some of the speakers doing like talks in front of 300 400 people as a kind of an extension of the conference. I know we also want to do a synthesis series, what’s that? Basically bringing together themes and domains that are historically relatively intention. So for example, like a meditation teacher and a technologist, or a scientist and an atheist, like a synthesis series here. This is what we represent. We’re bringing together tech and consciousness where we really represent. Have you ever read any of Hegel? Hegel’s evolution of consciousness philosophy, yeah, was that. So? The Hague, it was a philosopher and 17 17th or 18th century, I forget. And he says that consciousness evolves in a very particular way over time, that first there’s this thesis, which is one side of the polarity, then comes its antithesis, which is the opposite side of the polarity. And it’s only in the holding of those two things. And they’re absolute tension of duality. Do they then start to come into synthesis? So that in order for us to go to the next level of politics, say, we’ve got to see radical left radical, right, that, that we can’t get to the next level until we fully embrace the polarities?

CK LIN 55:39
So one of the things that I talked a lot about with our guest is the yin and the yang sign. And it’s in the grappling of these two polarities that you can find harmony, somewhere in the middle. And this harmony point, harmonious point is, is very personalized, who’s very individual. I can’t really tell you what your harmony point may be. But but it’s through the grappling with these two polarities, right? And then the mental, the cognitive dissonance, the grappling with it, and you can derive your own answers.

JOSHUA FIELDS 56:17
Absolutely. And also not collapsing yourself into a single perspective. Like, I think that the mark, when people say I’m all about consciousness, I think there’s also a very cognitive component to that, which is one’s ability to handle complexity. By definition, complexity often plays paradox. paradox implies being able to be okay, with two completely fucking opposite things. That’s right.

CK LIN 56:43
So I would say that would be a huge one, common traits that you’re intending set open minded to actually hear like, Oh, this person’s point of view is different than mine. Yes. Let me just get curious guess about why does he think that way?

JOSHUA FIELDS 57:04
Well, this is what I really liked about the conference was a lot of people in the psychedelic community have some sort of like deep somatic aversion to technology, right, which is understandable, because the way our programs are designed, and our software and hardware is, these aren’t deepening tools. But then what are some of our speakers spoke about where Yeah, hey, like, what if tech could adjust the similar states, through hardware and software as something like LSD goes through biochemistry? And people were very open to that from the psychedelic world over there at the conference? So.

CK LIN 57:37
So question there, because I also have had a conversation with people where they talk about the elevation or the transcendence of consciousness, whatever way you want to articulate it is a natural process. And over there is not better than over here. So then why are we putting effort to try to be over there, rather than just allow the natural progression of one’s own spiritual journey? What do what do you say to that?

JOSHUA FIELDS 58:07
I say to that, like, why should we get out of bed in the morning? Why? Why is it better to get out of bed rather than stay in bed? That like, life moves in a certain way. And I think there’s a misunderstanding that in attempting to move forward, one is somehow pushing against the grain, or like trying to accelerate things unnecessarily. Like, if we were just to say, let it all be, we wouldn’t have cured polio.

Like innovation is quite oftentimes, our lives are better, because we’ve said, Hey, we can be better. Now, there’s a distinction there between like, let’s just improve for the sake of improving. And I think this is what people resist, right? Thus there’s like techno utopian assumption of Silicon Valley, let’s just build shit and the world to be saved.

The other thing is, you said natural way, I think part of our there’s a bifurcation in our psyche, between natural and artificial. I think in the same way, we have this bifurcation of nature and culture, which is disastrous because we’re raping and pillaging the only home we have. There’s also this bifurcation of technology and nature, natural and artificial. We are all expressions of the same thing. Tech is an expression of consciousness. The way we’ve designed it, though, is in a way that is not circular, not sustainable. And so it feels so right. And I think part of our deep mission of consciousness hacking is to realign that movement of tech towards life’s more natural rhythms.

CK LIN 59:56
Which is what I really appreciate. Because you’re not saying, hey, tech is awesome. Tech is number one. That’s a, you know, use all the natural resources, we have to serve technology, per se. And there’s a through-line that I hear is that homage, right? That paying it forward. So then it’s it’s about thriving of the entire ecosystem, rather than just let me focus on, you know, make progress in this particular direction. But forget everyone else, you know, who may have to pay the price, including future generations per se, you know, which I really, really.

Is there any specific technology that you felt really excited about? Or did it a particular direction? So now that I’m asking you as an individual, rather than a curator of your community? Is there anything that you’re like, Oh, that sounds really promising.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:01:02
Did you see Jay Sanguinetti’s talk on ultrasound?

CK LIN 1:01:07
I have Yeah.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:01:12
Yeah, that’s the big one. So ultrasonic neuromodulation, which is targeting very specific areas of the brain with sound waves with ultrasound. I did that last week.

CK LIN 1:01:24
how was it from experience point of view?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:01:26
very potent. So they have a bit of 50 50% success rate. I was one of the responders. So I spent about 16 hours afterwards, in quite a deepened state of consciousness. Then it wore off. But anyway, that the idea is, you target a very, very, three very specific parts of the brain. Left, right, and the PC, the posterior cingulate cortex, with 32-second blast of ultrasonic stimulation? And would it be 50% of people when nothing happens? 50% of something quite deep happens. So yeah, ultrasound is a big one.

CK LIN 1:02:09
Describe a little bit more about what happened with that experience. So were you able to, you know, write like Shakespeare and have a huge creative burst and write a book and in 16 hours, share with us the experience of it

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:02:24
it was much more than that. just a deepening into being, capital be dipping into presence. a profound sense of peace. Yeah, it’s quite hard to describe, I’d recommend people check out persistent on symbolic experience, the term by Jeffrey Martin, he describes these certain locations of deeper experiences, because like location, one location 234. And I think my experience, it was more like, hey, this put me into like a little location, one you experience for a few hours? Yeah. And the idea is the technology still very early, it’s very safe as well. ultrasonic is very, very safe. When we start to have a better understanding of the brain, we can start to be more pinpointed with this, these interventions. Now, that is not to say that we can just like zap, our, the whole of humanity into like an enlightened state of consciousness. I think that’s a very reductive perspective. But it’s a tool. It’s a tool.

CK LIN 1:03:33
Right now that you have access to it. And I wonder how you compelled to or impelled to go back to that whenever you feel not center, not peaceful

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:03:43
The funny thing is CK.  this is why psychedelics are non-addictive. They’re not Morrish. And I think the same with meditative states. They’re not Morrish. But their reference points to say, hey, this Hi, this is how you can feel like this is your base? Yeah, Correct. Correct. I said, correct. That’s a new word. You like that? correct? That’s correct. And right. Correct.

CK LIN 1:04:09
All right.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:04:11
It’s you. It’s like, you’re swimming out at sea. And you know, there’s a rope attached, and you may go, and you’re swimming with sharks, but you know, the ropes attached to the boat. So you know, you’re safe. That’s why I feel with having explored a deeper state.

CK LIN 1:04:38
So I had a conversation with a friend who experienced plant medicine for the really, he’s really new with it. And then he distinguished Why does these are called medicines. for him. The way he articulate is you are exploring the mental blocks, not mental blocks, like a like a brick wall, right in your mind. And the top part is the most of the time is what you can have awareness of, let’s say, you know, something that you learn in physics or algebra, you’re like, Oh, I learned these things. And then this allows me to, you know, look at reality or filter reality through these, these models. But with medicine, he now is able to kind of come down to the bedrock to the foundation level, like, Oh, so I build these ideas from this, this this. And for him. He distinguished that. It’s very scary for some people, but he was willing to go there himself, because he if he has the opportunity to examine the foundational blocks of his operating system, I mean, I’m using metaphors interchangeably now. Right? So what would you say to that, do you you agree to his assessment, half some people is really scary to examine the foundation, the core belief of who they are, or the is that you know, just part of, if you want to upgrade the operating system is what it needs to happen.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:06:20
All of these practices, whether it be plant medicine or meditation, is they take you to, there’s a deconstruction process, that everything that you think you are, you’re not. And that includes these little rich thoughts as this in Buddhism, called “I”, our whole identity is based on this little guy called “I”(was a guy or girl.) And so to deconstruct the foundation of I mean, this is what we call ego death. It’s this death of self, you’ve done plant medicines, you know that the death itself is not a very pleasant thing. Or it can be very, very terrifying. Yeah, and then there’s this thing like, like a shamanic initiation, it is about completely deconstructing the foundation. And really seeing that there’s no foundation. The reality is actually, you know, the word groundless. That’s fucking terrifying. The ontology of existence, like what it’s made of, is, is nothing. let that land. that can lead to nihilism. And the flip side of nihilism is freedom.

CK LIN 1:07:40
Hence, why I do what I do. So what would you say to the people who are like, No, it’s too scary? I don’t want to even contemplate this. You know, deconstruct, as you call it, my identity, I’m comfortable where I’m at. I’m, you know, I have my Starbucks, I have my wi-fi service, two kids, white picket fence. You know, you guys do what you do? And, you know, plus What do I get from that? Right? Like, they don’t know the potential? Yes. From understanding or deconstructing?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:08:12
Well, I think I used to be in a position where I’d think you guys/girls, like, you don’t want to go deep enough. When really, I’ve seen I meant we’re just all different expressions of existence. But just because, like, I used to have some sort of like meditation hubris, that was like, if you ain’t meditating 10 hours a day, like I am, you ain’t woke, okay. And it’s just not that way. But I know, there are much smarter, wiser, more loving people than I am, who’ve done a 10th of the work. We start to see that when we want to change people, that is our own ego complex, right, getting involved. Especially as regards to like, spiritual stuff. We’re trying to change people’s they’re killing people with a different story.

CK LIN 1:09:01
Right? Right. They’re impacting other people’s freedom, and safety,

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:09:07
then we have, I think, some sort of moral responsibility to act. And this is where a lot of spiritual bypassing comes in. So like, so like, I’m not a political pacifist. Like, if I were in charge of like, a country, my war strategy with actually I think, be very harsh. Your war strategy? Yeah. As and I think like you have to create a certain strong boundary, to show that freedom is really important. And fairness is very important. I think some things with spiritual ism, you said, well, so one thing I can tell you what to do is that’s not what I mean by if you’re trying to change someone, you’re somehow I think, from an ego place, like there’s an element of that. But then there’s also an element where we do need to stand up and say, Hey, by there’s that paradigm change. Yeah, we talked about change. Change bitches.

CK LIN 1:10:03
Yeah, from my point of view, is an invitation. I can’t make anyone do anything they don’t want to do anyway, even if they do it. They will still be resentful and angry at, you know, whoever that might and made them do something. But the opportunities here, if they’re curious about, you know, deepening of their own awareness or understanding

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:10:24
my my whole experience of this has been when I try to persuade, people don’t really listen. When I embody, people listen. It’s very different.

CK LIN 1:10:41
How do you know, embodying versus your persuading?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:10:46
I’m using fewer words. And I’m not. There’s not a “trying” energy like, hey, come. That’s more like, where I am.

CK LIN 1:11:00
Interesting, though, because now we’re talking about more of a, like a attraction rather than persuasion. And as an entrepreneur, yeah. Fascinating, right. So how do you then how do you then discern, because part of the process is awareness, bring awareness to something that people may not be aware of? So you know, how do you stand in the making a powerful invitation very

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:11:27
beautiful, very beautiful, man. Great question. Yeah. Do you want to know my deep, deep answer, please, I have no idea how to reconcile those two things. No idea. Especially with capitalistic entrepreneurship, whereby there’s a monetary incentive to persuade. It’s very hard to get the incentives really clean, really clean. But we live in a capitalist you know, a world of money. So like, if you’re not doing persuading to make money than it needs to survive, right? There’s a way to make it self sustainable. There’s ways to just there’s a way to be a positive some rather than a zero sum game. It’s hard, man. It’s hard. And there’s been a real bastardization of mindfulness and yoga, out of capitalistic incentives. Right? It’s hard. I don’t know.

CK LIN 1:12:18
Yeah. And plus, actually, one more thing about that too. social media. The options are infinite. How do you stand on top of the How do you you know, get through the noise? Yeah, you know, so. And then there’s, how do you make a polarizing statement? And coming from my embodied place?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:12:48
Yeah. And then there’s the other parents is like, what if you just trust that your truest expression as often is also the most compelling one? Authenticity being the sales tactic,

CK LIN 1:13:02
People will resonate with your message, who you are, they may be attracted to you, but they don’t even know why they don’t they don’t have a rational response. They just know what it is that you do.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:13:13
And you don’t have to brand your YouTube videos if like CK LIN destroys reductive materialist, right?

CK LIN 1:13:20
Yeah, make it a clickbait headlines.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:13:22
Like what Tristan Hassis said it’s just a race to the bottom of the brainstem. That works. But it’s kind of fucked up, because you’re playing on our deepest primal fears.

CK LIN 1:13:35
So, so the marketing side says, Hey, you know, you sell them on what they want, then once they come in, and you give them what they need, versus offering an authentic offering and say, hey, you’re going to come in, we don’t exactly know what you’re going to get, but you will leave with more peace.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:13:58
with this. The other thing is, if you can practice practicing for like, 10 years, and you know, that this is going to benefit someone health, mental and physical well being. And, you know, there’s a certain strategy to get them in, you know, right. It makes sense.

CK LIN 1:14:12
So as part of an option that you have as a movement creator.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:14:18
Right. It’s just I think this is a it can be kind of gray, the murky waters? Yeah. I’m not I’ve not figured it out yet. I think I Well, my, my sense is I’ve kind of gone. My pendulum is still swinging. Yeah. Between intention And authenticity, right.

CK LIN 1:14:38
It’s difficult and challenging. I don’t have an answer. And so I was asking, you see, because part of what I do is, I’m a teacher, I’m an integration coach, Right, I’m an entrepreneur and part of what I would, what I do is to offer to bring people who are interested in deepening their own consciousness, because having that clarity, to operate from value operate from purpose. And these are available tools, do I move forward with them, like selling them what they want, which is high performance, or more money, more connection, and more love, and then really what they, we realize that the the root of what’s available is more aligned mind, body, and spirit, and then then everything else comes easier

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:15:40
Right. So I think the issue was trying to meet them where they’re at, and then taking them somewhere deeper is that you then lose out on the market segment that are just ready to, to actually just go deeper stuff. Like they don’t need the hand-holding. They’re just there. Yeah, yeah, we have we have constraints. We have constraints of money and marketing. All right.

What’s your meditation practice?

CK LIN 1:16:21
What’s my meditation? Um, I do have one my go-to is TM, Transcendental Meditation mantra, mantra base. I really, it’s a good rope for me to in the sea of thoughts and emotions. That anchors me pretty easily.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:16:41
Continue the sea metaphor for anchoring. Yeah, yeah.

CK LIN 1:16:46
How about you

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:16:48
Vipassana.

CK LIN 1:16:48
So speaking of difficulty. I like the acute stress of plant medicine. Vipassana on is essentially the same amount of stress, but drag out for 11 days. And that was very, very challenging for me. Especially day three, when they focus on anapana breathing. Three days on the upper lip? You freaking kidding me?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:17:16
Yeah. Yeah. The thing is with plant medicines, that it’s not as cumulative.

CK LIN 1:17:26
Say more about that? What does that mean?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:17:27
You have your experience, and then few days, weeks, few days, weeks, months later, you’re back? Vipassana seems to be cumulative.

CK LIN 1:17:37
So you, you believe that it’s what you receive from each vipassana, or each day of vipassana practice. Now you can add on to your stacking.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:17:49
I think you’re stacking in a very, very minute amount each time. And after like, two, three years, you’re like, holy shit. Like I stack a lot. plant medicine, if you’re doing it two, three times a year. I don’t think the net it’s like tortoise and the hare, the way the tortoise and the hare. I see. The tortoise ends up winning. Yeah, gets further.

CK LIN 1:18:09
Right, right. Here’s my point of view on that. The way I relate to plant medicine ceremonies is more. It’s a way to benchmark what’s possible.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:18:20
Yeah. But once the benchmarks there, why do you need more benchmarks?

CK LIN 1:18:23
Well, because you’re, there’s different depth of you. Right? So the benchmark is there, but you can go deeper with with iteration right. And, and as a integration coach, I tell my clients, my participants that this is only 10% of the work 90% of the work is in your daily integration practice, right? whatever that may be, could be yoga for you meditation for you. Conscious nutrition eating habits for you. conscious noble speech, or you relationship with others, etc. Right. So noble speech, noble relationships, noble everything. So so it opens up their awareness to Okay, so here’s the gap between my commitment and my actual words, action and thoughts. Then we work together to bring all that daily life.

That’s that’s the way I look at it. That’s where it makes sense. I think that makes us not a silver bullet. Yeah. You got the answer. And that’s that. That’s, that’s my approach.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:19:36
I understood. Have you done any Joe Dispenza? Have you heard of him?

CK LIN 1:19:44
I have. You are the placebo

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:19:49
He’s excellent. Yeah, excellent. a lot of people when they think about like, healing the body, they think it’s just about holding the image holding the thought. And visualization manifestation is just about thinking about what you want. And then that will be it

CK LIN 1:20:04
The law of attraction

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:20:06
it doesn’t work. Dispenza thesis is that it doesn’t work unless you integrate it with a feeling. The feeling is actually the signal to reality that this is whatever is received, as you’re actually teaching your body semantically, emotionally in a way that is beyond just cerebral. So if anyone’s listening and wants, wants to try very powerful meditation techniques, I’ve tried to Joe Dispensa. I see.

CK LIN 1:20:30
So since we’re doing some tactical suggestions what other things you believe people should or we can invite them to?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:20:39
Exactly. A quick-fire round, quick-fire tactics? Yeah, please. Okay, so number one, lucid dreaming. lucid dreaming. Yeah, so read a guy called Charlie Morley, a book called dreams of awakening, you can actually start practicing skills and languages and in your dreams, lucidly. You can there are various ways to get there. You can do reality checks throughout the day. You can keep it keep a dream diary. You can take a drug called galantamine, which is an Alzheimer’s drug. And it gives you a very bad hangover but just if you want to try what it feels like to have a lucid dream Yeah, so basically that is like we sleep eight hours a night we dream for four of those which basically means if you live to 90 you’re you have 15 years. is that right? Yeah, third Yeah,15 years of lucid dreaming time. 15 years we can actually work in yourself. Really we just think is. But the Yogi’s had something for the Yogi’s as well the dream practice was death practice. So lucid dreaming has quite a significant skill set I’ve explored

gratitude big one.

intermittent fasting. dry fasting actually has different effects in the body than water fasting. Let’s try fasting no water,

CK LIN 1:22:16
no water for how long.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:22:18
I know someone who can dry fast for six days. And I thought that was impossible. physiologically

CK LIN 1:22:24
Yeah, I thought after seven is it seven days? We die

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:22:28
I thought it was four days. Yeah, she is she she does this I think she also her shoulders though. I had a body might be absorbing But anyway, there’s some evidence to suggest that dry fasting has even like greater to autophagic effect than water fasting

CK LIN 1:22:46
interesting,

harder though. So I do some fasting I don’t do dry fasting I do water fasting but I’d like to try dry fasting. do you want to try a dry fast with me dude?

yeah leaning to discomfort. how long do you do that water fast?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:23:08
Yeah, the last straw said it was a bone broth fast on this for three days. I see.

CK LIN 1:23:13
What’s the benefit of fasting for you? why do you do it?

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:23:16
Gut stuff I’ve got pretty bad bloating. Also clarity lightness. and also only were meant to eat three meals a day

CK LIN 1:23:27
yeah right

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:23:29
we were meant to hunt yeah find fast right Fuck

CK LIN 1:23:33
Yeah, right. But what about the headache that you get for not taking nutrient? I don’t get a headache you don’t get it? I know you got a headache me within six hours

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:23:46
Really? Yeah no no headache. Yeah, I get bit hangry. Angry grumpy

CK LIN 1:23:51
Yeah, you’re not in a relationship where you know Yeah, okay. that makes it a little easier

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:23:57
I think my habits just now makes me very hard boyfriend. Even things like sleep lately. I’m assuming this my friend this morning like sleeping in the same bed I’m so sensitive to body heat.

CK LIN 1:24:11
Right. And people moving around

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:24:16
Yeah, and I really value my sleep Yeah, I’m into this I

CK LIN 1:24:20
Hey, man. I know exactly what you mean. cool. appreciate this.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:24:29
On there’s also chanting stimulates the vagus nerve. chanting and singing and gargling

CK LIN 1:24:35
any specific keywords they should put into Google

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:24:38
no idea but it’s just chanting vagus nerve. Alright,

CK LIN 1:24:43
so chanting vagus nerve. look into that. Yes. All right. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I really really appreciate you being on sharing with us. Everything that you share your story, your disciplines, where you hope to achieve the consciousness hacking and also the tactical suggestions. Thanks for being here on the podcast

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:25:04
with me. Thank you for listening, everybody. My name is Joshua fields and peace out.

what do you want to send them to?

so cohack.life is our websites. So how to know what podcast for I have some writings up called Neonosis.com and I do a little bit of blogging on medium. So you can find me at Joshua fields.

CK LIN 1:25:26
Amazing. Thanks, Josh.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:25:27
All right. great seeing you CK.

CK LIN 1:25:30
We’ll do a part two sometime soon when you come back to LA.

JOSHUA FIELDS 1:25:34
Yeah, when I moved to LA. Cheers man