Nov. 16, 2018

012 Paul Greene: How to Move From Fear to Love

012 Paul Greene: How to Move From Fear to Love

Actor and musician Paul Greene defines his life by four essential qualities: fatherhood, fitness, faith, and family. No matter his current focus–the release of his album, “Freedom For Your Soul,” the writing of his paradigm-shifting parenting book, or the portrayal of Dr. Carson Shepherd for five seasons on the ratings-juggernaut Hallmark Channel series “When Calls the Heart”–he knows how to enjoy his most abundant life possible.


Born in Wetaskiwin, Alberta, Canada, Greene was raised on a farm and learned first-hand the importance of faith, hard work, and family. Upon his high school graduation, he left for college on a volleyball scholarship, leading to Paul’s discovery by renowned modeling agent, Kelly Streit. At the age of 18, he immediately became an international success in the modeling world due to being featured on dozens of magazine covers and representing blockbuster brands like Armani, Tommy, Men’s Journal, Hilfiger, J. Crew, Men’s Health, and many more.


Throughout his 20s, Paul’s emerging modeling career kept him active in the cities of New York, Paris, London, Milan, and Japan, while studying acting with Uta Hagen, Stella Adler, and Susan Batson to amplify his career. The creative call of acting directed him to move to Los Angeles, where Paul continued to book commercials and garnered success as a series regular and guest star on dozens of TV shows, including NCIS, CSI, The Newsroom, Girlfriends’ Guide to Divorce, and Bitten, to name a few. Coined the “Cary Grant” of the Hallmark Channel, with the current season 8 of When Calls the Heart, he has already gained significant acclaim, leading to starring roles in several films as a consistent presence on the network.


When not working in his chosen field, Paul enjoys flying planes, riding motorcycles, making music, camping, and being a dad. He finds immense joy in helping others achieve their health and wellness goals. With a deep passion for music, he expresses his creativity by singing and songwriting. His crowning achievement has been the annual privilege of performing in a holiday benefit concert at Carnegie Hall. Paul, who lost his father to ALS, has also made a life-long commitment to raising funds and awareness for this and other socially responsible causes that are important to him. Paul lives in Los Angeles with his family. 

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CK LIN 0:00
I'm sitting here with Paul Greene. And I met Paul through my meditation retreat this past weekend. And the I immediately gravitated towards his way of being, his musicianship, his way of being who he is as a father. And I wanted to just get to know him a little bit more. Professionally, though, Paul, if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what's exciting in your world what makes you come alive, I think give you some people a little bit more context. That'd be really great.

For sure. So, uh, professionally, I'm an actor. I've been at it for 20 years, from a small farm in Canada, and I watched Bloodsport, and I knew I had to, I kept waking up in the movies with John Claude Van Damme. And I was like, all right, this is a problem. Like I was on this farm doing chores, and I was waking up in movies. So at 16, as soon as I got my license, I put myself in acting school. So I am in a always knew I wanted to act from from them. And I've now 20 years later, it's a it's a career that I do every day, I'm on a TV show called when Calls the Heart that that's in our season six right now. And we also, it's on Netflix, my character comes in and season four. I love music. I play piano guitar, and I like to sing. And I also am a pilot, I love flying my dad got there's 14 pilots my family allow. So I grew up around birds, those kind of birds. I am very curious spiritual person. I'm very, very in love with my life. I'm a father, I have a beautiful partner named Kate. And I'm passionate about helping find a cure for ALS. My dad died from als a few years ago. So that's something I'm very passionate about, to having my life make a difference for others is is what I'm creating my life as beautiful. And

CK LIN 2:07
it is the theme. from what I gather from our conversation theme of our conversation. We primarily talked about how do we go from fear, to love.

That's right. And that fear to love is is the album that I'm writing, I'm working on an album and that's going to be the journey of the album. And that's I did a documentary in the Himalayas called the highest pass. And that was where that was birthed. We were on motorbikes for a month in India to Tibet, and I was a part of a documentary. And I had my son on the gas tank, his picture there, because I was constantly afraid of being maimed and hit by trucks. And we saw so many people get hurt and killed. And I was in fear. And it was not a very good rider. And at one point, I just, I felt God just say, fear makes you dumb, and stiff, and a bad rider and love will make you liquid and smooth and a good rider. So I put a picture of my son there. Whenever I felt tension, I just like all right, let's let's move to love. And I would see the picture of my son and it made me a more creative rider on the motorcycle less rigid and less fearful. So that's where the fear to love was born. It was in the Himalayas in India,

CK LIN 3:28
what a lesson. I'm really excited to talk to you today, Mainly, because when I first met you in our meditation retreat that was immediately gravitated to your point of view on life. Mainly because how you spoke about the allure of like having lots of money, versus what ultimately matters, spending time with family, as per your value system. So I'm excited to kind of explore that with you a little bit further. But before we dive deep in those topics, this is the question I always ask everyone. That is what are some of the pivotal moments in your life that made you the person the man that you are today?

Well, being raised in on a farm really has made a big difference. It was like a working acreage so we had a lot of different work to do with chores and learning how to work hard as a young person. And knowing that my weekends didn't really belong to me they belong to the farm like that was just what we did and and we didn't and we had an easy like we didn't have a lot of animals we just had big land to take care of. So that was a big piece to my life was working with soil and having my bare feet in my hands for my whole childhood in the earth and the garden then learning the value of nature and hard work and playing too we had a full force that my dad built test dojo to to fight each other on and throwing stars My dad was a welder so and nunchucks and other kid Yeah, and tree forts and learning how to build them ourselves and learning how to fix our motorcycles ourselves. And, and then that was big foundation. And I think along that that the religion I grew up in, which was a very strict Christianity, like a, but it was the kind of Christianity that was kind of fun, like it was Pentecostal. So people were getting healed and their hands were raised and people would speak in tongues. And it was very, it was a version of Christianity that was like, seemed to me like the most exciting as a kid because you just watch the old people in church talk weird and you're like, What is going on? And I was around the music. I grew up in music and I wanted to be a drummer. So I practiced with a teacher that taught me rhythm, and he was a really great jazz drummer. And I was a drummer in a church. And I did drama in church and I fell in love with with music and drama, but I was so in love with sports that it was they were always in opposition to each other. They never really worked well together. Because I hanging out with the athletes down at the drama dorks at school. They were always smoking and listening to heavy metal. So it was like how do I relate to arts but also love physically moving my body which as a kid, I had to like I was climbing everything played every sport hockey, baseball, basketball, volleyball. Volleyball is what eventually took me to college on a scholarship was volleyball just fell in love with it. But pivotal moments along the way was my relationship to God and my relationship with my father. And because my dad was an amazing father, my dad was gone a lot. He was in the oil and gas industry. So he traveled a lot. But when I had my dad, he was amazing. He's very present and steady. And later in life, I would learn what a what a real man was in terms of holding space for a woman. My dad did that for my mom, my dad had a deep listening from my mom. And so he watching my dad. And how adventurous My dad was because he rode motorcycles and flew airplanes. And my dad's The reason that I got into airplanes and motorcycles, and then I got my pilot's license really young, so that I could connect with my dad and, and be with him. And so I think that relationship with dad was so such a pivotal, pivotal thing. And I think there was an age when I was seven or eight tonight, I watched my brother get sexually abused by a babysitter. And I think that was one of the biggest moments that kind of set a path of, of healing, like

CK LIN 8:17
for you or as a healer,

as for me as a human being to watch my brother have something happened and not being able to do anything about it. And being angry about it. And not knowing how to express the anger. I realized later in life. How important that moment was, especially for my brother, but but me not being able to help him not been able to because I was younger than him. That really shaped kind of the sexual journey of my life too, because I became really promiscuous from 15 to 18, like brutally promiscuous, just trying to figure out what to do with that what I witnessed, and parents wouldn't believe us that something happened. And that that moment, of witnessing sexual abuse and not knowing how to help or not knowing how to defend my brother also just stirred up like this kind of inner rage that I've now as an adult got access to as a tool, but also as a as a point of going, something is wrong, something happened. And I made it me in a bunch of things, and kind of shaped my life around it as a sexual human being. And at 18, I met a model who was really beautiful. I mean, that sort of, we're jumping ahead of it. But that really shifted my path was volleyball scholarship. In college, somebody saw me in a bar, said you should model and I went to meet the agent. And the day after I met the agent, I met a beautiful Christian girl

at the agency. And she was like the real deal. Like she was like, she had a guitar and she had a Bible and she loved Jesus. And she was hot. And I was at that point, nowhere near a relationship with God, even though I grew up in it and had Jesus camps every summer where I got fully on fire for God every summer would only last about a week in school. And this girl, Jenny really showed me a relationship with god that was attractive, that that was actually about a relationship, not religion. And she, that's when I started playing guitar, reading the Bible, and I became celibate. At that moment, at eight, the moment I met her, I was like, if I'm ever going to be with someone like you, I'm going to wait till my wedding night. So at the same time, I was discovered for modeling. So I quit my volleyball scholarship, and quit university or college and traveled the world as a model. But born again, like no parties, no drugs, no girls, just my Bible, my guitar and my pilot's license. And I had took all that sexual energy, and turned it into studying and investing, like I took my money I made from modeling and bought real estate rental properties at 1920 2122. Had I not been to Jesus had I not had that commitment to God, I would have probably done like all my friends did in their 20s. in their teens, this is just drugs, girls, spend the money. Live, blow out your life, right. But I had the structure, this incredible discipline that came, I would love to take credit from it. But it was, it was something bigger, it was a life path like it was. I didn't really have much saying it I really felt like my life was I was chosen to dive deep into the mythology of the Bible at the time, I didn't have that language around it. But like I just was like, consumed the Bible, like the stories and over and over again. And I share Jesus with everyone. Like, I played my guitar all over the world on trains and buses in every country and gave out little pieces of paper that told people how they could find Jesus like little tracks that would like if you want to know how to get to heaven moves is how you get to heaven. And I was committed and with no fear, like I just had no fear of people turning me down or rejecting anything. And it was quite a dichotomy. I had one of the most successful male modeling careers of anybody in terms of income stature, the clients I worked with. And I credited it all to God because I had a built in tithing system where 10% of my money I gave to church and to charity ever. Never were missed it. My dad used to say, pardon to this day to this day never stopped, right.

CK LIN 9:57
at agency

So you share a lot. And there's so many points I want to follow. And I know that it's not over yet. But there's so many things I wanted to ask you. So what I hear a few things. One is you won the genetic genetic lottery, in some respect, right? You were born into a family where there's a strong male figure, right? who embodies to you masculine being and what that looks like, you were encouraged to be physical, right, that provided in the environment, the space, the activity, the tree climbing, and then a ninja stars and all that stuff. And you were involved in athletics you were surrounding yourself with. But you also had the interesting, I guess, twist would be the word where you experience your brother's sexual abuse. You shifted your life in particular way. And then there's a lot of things I can follow up with. So knowing what you know, now, what do you think? Because you are a father now, right? Yeah. Do you feel like you bring the similar flavor of parenting that your father did? As in in terms of the physical activities in terms of the all this adventurous, the curiosity that your father instilled in you? And do you pass it down to your son, as well?

Yes, I mean, it's the my relationship to my son is obviously different. Because my dad didn't have the communication that I have learned. My dad's responsibility was to provide and to protect, there wasn't the emotional expectation. It seemed Oh, my dad to be able to talk about his feelings with us, you know, or to ask us really how we're feeling it didn't never really that it the relationship to my son is very different than the relationships that I had with my dad. But it does have those aspects that you talked about. There's a lot of adventure, a lot of physical play, my son and I play every day something volleyball, basketball, we wrestle, we play darts we are very active. And some of you are really involved in his life. Very, yeah. And I have the I don't really have the luxury of taking him for granted because I have them a week at a time. His I separated from his mom 15 years ago, so when he was, well, he was only a year and a half. So 13 and a half years ago as mom and I separated when Oliver was really really young. And so I've had him a week at a time for his whole life. One week one week off in that week I have them is full on like very present very deep connection and the week I don't I get a bit of reflection time on what I did with him was I present? did I make them wrong, like so I think a dad who has a kid 20 473 65 every day has a harder job than I have because I have the week of space to first focus on my dreams, my goals when I'm after and a reflection time of how how my time is spent with my son. And then when I have them it's like Christmas time I'm It is like 100% game on like play fun, dive deep adventure, camping the whole thing. So it's more than a silver lining. It is the life that we created for him and that he created called in for himself and he has a really unique life.

CK LIN 17:03
Is that almost sound like it's better than the traditional 24/7.

I mean, I'm sure if you asked him. He most kids would have the romantic dream that their parents would be together. And I'm not sure if he would say was better. But I think possibly later on in his life, he'll looking to like look at this diverse I had two dads because he has his dad is also very involved is his step dad is also very involved in his life. And he has the perspective of Katie who's my my love and my partner who's just like a super coach and like super wise and highly intuitive. And then his mom, which who's just like a rock star in every sense. So he has four mentors, giving him four unique lenses on how to look at things. So I think it's better but I also the family, like you said, and then this question of what is to be a dad in modern times, the traditional family, there's something so strong and so beautiful about that I'm not I'm no way am I assuming that it's better to have a broken home or split home or shared home. But there are some really cool benefits that I've experienced from my own perspective about it.

CK LIN 18:23
Yeah, I mean, my friends and I, we we talked about this a little bit, obviously, I am not a parent yet. So this is all I'm imagining what it's like to to have a you know, someone who was totally dependent on you, right. But to me, as an imperfect human being who's perfectly imperfect. It's kind of crazy to me that we expect to we're expected to pass on our ideas, these means to the next generation, because that's so limited in perspective. Traditionally, tribally, we do have this community of elders that, you know, kids can pick and choose different points of view or so and so as an expert in something right trade, or like building what work or art or martial arts or whatever it may be. But these days, they're very, very limited. It's almost as if the more connected we are via technology, the more insulated. Now the kids are solely dependent on the parents, who are living in boxes, basically on top of one of those little apartments. Yeah, and I think that there is such a missing so when I do have my own children, my desire is to have these multiple perspectives, whatever it may call it, hopefully not in a shared home situation, but in a but you know, in a in a tribe of elders where they can listen, I'm curious to know your thoughts about that.

So there's a gentleman named Joseph Campbell, who I'm sure you've heard of the he wrote the hero's journey here with 1000 faces, and he's the biggest mythologise that we have, who passed away. He's responsible for the Matrix and for Star Wars, and you know, even the, the hero's journey, the classic hero's journey, and he said that our society began to fall apart when we stopped living in tribes. And because the elders were my grandma and grandpa would take care of the young kid, while the young couple who are like 1817, or 15 year olds, they're, they're able to develop the craft and their love for each other. Their full responsibility was never the kids, the elders took care of the kids. And there's something about that that's really, really powerful, and really, really incredible. Now, as you said, we're these individuals, but we found tribe, again, my, from my perspective through the internet, like the internet. And our, the way we connect through technology is bringing tribe back around in a way where we have all the tools that we would have from elders at our fingertips by by a quick search, we can gain a lot of wisdom, not the same as if it was from our grandparents, or our parents, in the sense but I feel our desire for tribe is being actualize through technology.

CK LIN 21:26
so you're technology optimist,

I'm an optimist. I love that through my phone, I can absolutely time travel and do anything that I can think of within a split second, I think the dangers are obvious that we stare at the screen, like narcissian into the pond that our own reflection and where we can, the tendency is to really lose everything that's out in front of us, right? The beauty is it's a transformational portal into doing anything you want. And it's like sugar or or croissants, it requires discipline. It requires How do you have it add value to your life and not diminish your life?

CK LIN 22:12
It's so important to remember that framework how to, but it's such an easy way also because the ego is tricky, right? You can justify rationalize anything. Yeah, what would be a good example: "Oh, I deserve to eat the sugar because I work so hard all this week." It's a way to rationalize. I mean, there's some variation of that for anything about our addiction, right? Maybe so but without getting more philosophical. I was curious to know if you wanted to say anything more about your pivotal moments that kind of shaped you as a man as a father, as a as a human being, as an entrepreneur, as a lover, anything that you want to share like pivotal moments that shaped your worldview.

Yeah, well going on that path of Christianity I did wait till my wedding night to have sex six and a half years later. So I was celebrated from 18 and changed to 24 and change

CK LIN 23:14
actually on that note curious to know your thoughts. sorry to interrupt. one may say it's really challenging to navigate the holding that sexual energy right so you can go crazy with it as you said earlier, the promiscuity right? Then you lose your purpose. But you can also on the flip side of that gets all controlled by the side absolutely no, no. Right. And then but this energy had nowhere to go you couldn't really channel it then you have the also the kind of like the unhealthy way of expressing this sexual energy using point the Catholic Church and all these other things, right. So how were you able to come in from a very one end of the spectrum coming to the middle where your sounds like able to harmonize in a very healthy way for your career for who you are for the path that you took on?

It was a natural, I understand the question it in the there's a lot of repression. And there seems like on any extreme of these things, there's a lot of dysfunction. But I channel the sexual energy into learning and into finances and into music and into learning how to cook and learning how to speak languages and like building this life That was so fun, that the sexual stuff, it didn't even feel like I was repressing it I just I was busy and so

CK LIN 24:46
many other things happening.

And sexual energy is creative energy. And it's it's your I just turned the tap on in another area. And I think that even now, as a 44 year old men, I when I go away from my love Kate and I'm in Vancouver, I have to channel that into songwriting and into the gym and into my art and into contributing to other people's lives. Not get self absorbed and, and get dangerously addicted to any pornography or masturbation or all it like it's Yes, it's a it is a discipline, but it's not one of lack. It's of abundance of findings, an abundance of fun things to do that you can channel that energy into. that you're not even it's not even the word temptation isn't even in the conversation, because that creates polarity, right? It's not like abstaining from something, it is just doing everything. And that one thing isn't going to make your life better, isn't serving you. So you decide not to add that in for the moment. not gone forever. It's just not going to work with what you're creating your life at this point in time. And it just takes to remember that perspective. I knew I was going to get married and he was going to have a wedding night. I knew I was going to have sex again. But it wasn't I wouldn't feed the the Black Wolf. Like I wouldn't stare at a girl's ass as she walked by. Like I wasn't looking at pornography. I wasn't hanging out with people that were doing drugs and partying I hung out with elders of like giants, real estate giants, God music giants, spiritual giants and I learned aviation gurus like I just I got so much out of not running my sexual chi all over the planet for those pivotal years. Some would look at it as repair repression. But I never saw it that way. I still don't see it that way. I see it as just like a training for martial arts. It was just another discipline.

CK LIN 26:59
Yeah, no, what I hear you saying between the lines in in also in words to explicitly is that your life is just so full. It wasn't a missing if you didn't have this aspect of your life. There's so many other avenues for you to continue to grow and enrich your life, in real estate in, in modeling and all these other ventures that you can spirituality that you can take on such as missing this aspect is not something that you would need to obsess over. Now you need to kind of hide in a repressed by like having these like very rigid control.

Know, because that's an addiction that becomes the brain it probably hits the exact same part of your brain. It's like ooh, yummy, I get a new thing to be an addict over which is the abstinence of that thing. Like it's still checking the same boxes up there with your dopamine, serotonin all that because you're getting some kind of a payoff, which is I'm this disciplined, controlled. Amazing human. I never I didn't have time to observe myself and go oh, look at I'm abstaining from sex. I was just having fun. And I was in love with learning. And that's a little bit who I am. Like, I've always been a little bit like that I've really enjoyed new things and taking on new things and learning

CK LIN 28:20
Did you need to cultivate that curiosity which was naturally always this curious and you didn't need any kind of cultivation, just the just like, following like pulling that thread up curiosity or wherever you go?

Yeah, I was very curious. I needed discipline. I only needed discipline, I needed a structure to the chaos, I had plenty of chaos as a kid. Like, if I was always jumping off of buildings, like I had that kind of energy, like in the literally literally jumping, I would look for the highest thing and go and jump never broke a bone and built like a Viking and 220 pounds. And even as like a kid my, my, my Norwegian, Dutch and and in my bones were I never broke a bone. But I made I have no idea how because of the you know, when I see the things we jumped off of his kids on the high jump off of the barn, it was like 30 feet. But it's a I needed structure to the chaos and I always got in trouble and I was really challenging young person but God when I found God at that time, it gave me that structure and it gave me the channel for all that sexual energy to be put some good use into and I was doing good for others to it wasn't just about me

CK LIN 29:36
say more about that structure like so tactically in terms of discipline in terms of tactical like structure. How did Christianity Bible, this church that you go to provide that for you?

principles, you know, studying, that's why I was digging through the Bible looking for examples of people that failed miserably like, but also loved God, like King David was one of those in the Bible that God he was after God's heart yet the guy went after but Sheba had his wife killed, he like had he made more mistakes than anybody his heart was right for God. So I, I think that's why I read the Bible so much, because I was looking for these stories and these, these examples of, of how to live life in a way and you know, the principles that the Bible put forward, I just kind of absorb them through through mythology. And through stories, and I surrounded myself with really powerful men,

CK LIN 30:38
what maks them powerful

their ability to share their tools with me, and their way to communicate well, how they got what they got, for example, my friend, Steve foot who his family owns a bank, in Manhattan, and in Pennsylvania, like, and it's a family thing. And he had like, eight kids, and I was in there, his kids were impeccable. Like, I was like, and I went to him and I said, Why are your kids like this, like, they're so fun to be around you, you say x and they do X, but they're not afraid of you, they love you. And he goes here read this book, it was called baby wise and baby wise and just like a parent directed style of parenting that's pretty controversial. And, and also incredibly amazing. And he shared that book with me. And I've given that book to like, probably 30 men in my life, who are about to have a baby, and, and things like that. So the men that I've chosen Michael Guido, along my life, he was the one of the youth pastor that traveled with rock musicians. And I've just, I've really surrounded myself with Titans like men that had a lot of integrity. And that's what made them. So lets get tactical, right? So for anyone that's listening, how would you recommend? What is an indicators for integrity? of integrity? Is everyone would say, Yeah, I have integrity, right? I don't I don't think I've met anyone who's like, I don't know about integrity, like, Hey, I have integrity, but the variation of embodiments where you know, it's different. So like, how do you tell when somebody's integrity or versus not?

Where they do what they say they're going to do. Like they say something and that then they do that thing you do very rarely. And I was trained with my son when I say no, I don't change my mind. Now that he older, I'm open more for inquiry. And if he's like, Dad, I don't understand why you said no, then I'll be likable. Let's go into that. And if his argument is strong enough, I'll change my mind. But now that he's older, but when he was young, no meant no. And yes, meant Yes.

CK LIN 32:49
And I think the given that structure,

I gave him the structure, immovable, I was never counting to three going 123 On the count of three, it was like all over, let's go. And if you didn't, I would go over get down on my knee and look them right in the eye. And I'd be like, you hear me, right? I'm talking to you, right? He's like, Yeah, and I would get down on his level. And I would never bully him with fear. Oliver had tons of structure my son, but it was guided by love, not fear. And that's the difference. I was raised with a little bit of fear. And the religion was a little bit of fear of going to burn in hell forever. If you don't accept Jesus as your Savior, like that's in my head, if I could sum up my entire pivotal, pivotal moment in my life was the journey from fear, to love having my life be governed by fear and then governed by love and, and I've taken that into my parenting. And that's, that is what I look for in the mentors have chosen as well, if they have a lot of integrity, but they're living their life as terrorists, like tormenting the people around them with their fear. They're not, it's not just integrity I look for in my friends or in myself as an attribute. It's love. And it's it's loving in a in a way that my teacher Kathy, who's taught me everything, she whe Oliver was really young. She we were camping in Big Sur, and she noticed a way that Oliver was reacting to me. And she goes, you know, he's only obeying you because of fear. This is what she said to me. My son was about four at the time. I was like, You talking about just like he's, he's afraid of you. And she goes, when is he ever come up to you and just like, snuggled and she goes, you have a tapping foot, you're restless, and you're angry. And he is afraid of you. And this was that for I think my teacher came into my life when she did this is Kathy. And so she goes get really present Paul, take a deep breath, and we around the fire in Big Sur and ground yourself. Stop tapping your foot and get present. And Oliver was running around like in his behavior was crazy. And she and and she goes instead of trying to bully him with your energy. Get down on one knee and share with him the way you're acting. Oliver doesn't work around the fire where we are, we want you to be here. And we love you. But if you're going to act crazy like that, you gotta go in the tent, zip it up and go nuts, created structure to the chaos. She taught me that all in the same moment. So Oliver went in the tent, and he just went nuts in attendance. And he loved it was like a wild animal. which didn't work where we are. It's dangerous with a fire and we were trying to have a good conversation and he was crazy. But I was able because of her getting present, then. And I was like Oliver, are you ready to come out of the tent? And he's like, not yet. He went nuts a little bit longer. And then he gassed himself out and he comes out. He came over into the first time I think in his life he came, laid his head right on my lap. And I'm looking at the fire and it was almost sun setting and Kathy's there and and I just I'll never forget the moment I learned to connect with my son in a way where he's not afraid of me where it's coming from love.

CK LIN 36:20
I'm so moved by what you share. Thank you so much. That was a very special moment. Thank you so much for sharing with me for the people that are listening to this.

I don't know if you speak-text, but that's the only way I text. You just push the you push this button here. Hey, buddy, how's everything going? Question mark. It's a way of having technology not own you, you get to own it a little bit. That's how I feel. I feel like when I'm typing in my cell phone with my thumb's that my technology is owning me. And when I speak it, I feel like I'm owning it. It's an interesting thing, because I'm able to be a little bit more present to with the my surroundings.

CK LIN 37:14
I love it. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, I got that own concept from Aubrey Marcus book on the day on your life? Have you read it? There's a few things in that book that as I gotta borrow that, at least that concept of owning your day, not letting your day own you or don't borrow from tomorrow, by drinking heavy tonight, if you do, you're not owning the day you're having your your alcohol owning you another structure to the chaos, you know, I'm always looking for that I'm always looking for an order to the chaos, like how do I add a container so that my creative feminine side can be playful. But I can still highly function as a responsible man and be enough of a structure that my woman I can have the feminine space to be playful and fully expressed or angry and not be reactive to it that I can be a container for my woman in the same way. And another book is David data is the way of the superior man beautiful book. Fortunately, 12 years ago, that book came to me and it's kind of been my Bible through my my this my 30s I'd read a chapter a day and integrate it and then I would and I worked with David David David was one of his assistants are kidding, haha, amazing. In Miami, so I got to be one of the male assistants and got some coaching through him. And I'm there's a lot of things that I really, really love about David's work. There's some things I disagree with. But that's that's what having a an objective, sane mind is is questioning and to I don't never take I don't take anything without questioning and a little bit.

CK LIN 39:03
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's actually a really key. It's still have curiosity, at the same time not to be buying everything wholesale. Right, whatever it may be any mentors, any kind of ideas? I always, I think I can't remember who said this, but I think is like God's Will or something like that, where God wants you to question everything, because that's within your that's what consciousness is. Because otherwise, we'll just be automatons, you know, just doing, you know, robotic work, following everything. So,

yeah, I agree. And then there's a there's a limit to questioning to where you become in resistance to everything, right? You it's a such a fine balance of questioning to a point that you only that it's make serving your life and making your life work. If you become a very resistant questioning person to a point where your life doesn't work, then you've taken that too far. Yeah. And you can be in resistance or in creation. Right. Yeah. And which is a distinction that I love from the work that I'm currently doing. And in that, I think being curious, like you said is a is maybe a more powerful way to describe questioning everything because questioning everything has quite a bit of resistance. And resistance only gets you so far.

CK LIN 40:25
Yeah, I love the Yang, the older I get the the the the more I appreciate the yin-yan sign. To me, everything is a spectrum. And the idea is to find a harmonious point, it's not a balance point, because balance implies giving up something and then letting something else go right. Whereas harmony, it's have everything work. And then in the black, there's a little bit of white in the way, there's a little bit of black, you know, so everything to me, is the key point is to find the internal compass, internal harmonious point. But you actually dropped a few gems, I want to go back to this real quick, in terms of, and this is all in the overall journey of going from fear to love, in terms of holding space for your woman, for your son. Say, can you say a little bit more about the work that you actually take? Whether it be from reading, whether it be from studying with, you know, master teachers like David data as an example. How do you embody that? How do you integrate that? Because it's easy to read. Oh, I understand it, therefore I am it. That's not how it works, right? It's the integration work, it's so much more important. Say a little bit more about that.

It's a challenge because especially how the stars aligned when I was born, I'm a Gemini, which means I'm outrageously curious. And I just try everything. So for me discipline. Take it is a challenge to stay with one discipline for to master it. Like, I have to find a way to make it fun. Because fun is kind of the flag that floats my ship. Like that is what moves my ship is fun. And if it isn't fun, I won't stay with it. So whether it comes practicing the guitar, meditation, exercise, cooking, like any discipline that I try to master and get really, really good at if it's not fun, I won't stay with it. So I had a part of me making something becoming a master, so to speak, or becoming talented at something, I have to find a way to make it fun.

CK LIN 42:47
How do you do that? Because I want to do that. I hear you. Yeah. Because I'm in the kind of guy who I see the goal, I'm going after it start to lose this, like, you know, I don't know how to say like, this joie de vie this je ne sais quoi. Yeah, this like joy instead of a chore and then burdensome. And then. So when I meet people who's alive and enjoy, Joy is and it's like, okay, I want to know how you do it.

How do I make things fun? A big part of it, is who I am. From birth. I mean, I was the guy that would put just everything had to be fun for me to learn how to have fun, as an adult, how I keep things fun is I, I have a lot of variety. So I don't, for me, if I just studied say, jeet kune do, like one type of martial arts or Cali screamer, I wouldn't, I would get bored so quickly. I have to find a type of martial arts that allows me to do it all. And then I go, go go, and I'm like, Okay, I'm going to set that aside for a bit. And then I'm going to play with that I am not the kind of person that will probably be 20 years in one discipline, and just not. And I know that about myself, and I accept that about myself and even love that about myself. I still know that discipline equals freedom, in the sense that the more structure and as I get older, it gets easier. As I get older I I'm learning to be and do what I say I'm going to be into more meaning I say I'm going to do something and I do it as and I and I've but it but it's been training like I'm I'm in landmark training now, which is a adult education, sort of like a tool for I call it like a blind spot. It helps me find the areas of my life that I didn't know that I didn't know. And so I'm always in that. And I'm diving deep into this current work where I have a lot of accountabilities, and I'm responsible for a lot of people. And but I still have to find a way to make it enjoyable. And I think a way to make it fun is to measure it, meaning putting things in existence in my calendar. So I know when I'm winning, or like keeping a journal so I can like, have a little bit of an observance of it and not be so engulfed in it that I lose perspective on that I'm having an Am I enjoying it? And I think just bringing the distinction. Is it fun around keeping that question around? Am I having fun, not just me, like the people around you have to be having fun,

CK LIN 45:33
the way of being that you bring to, you know, to everyone that you touch?

Yeah. And it's in making sure other people are having fun before you is it access to this way of having fun. It's not just about me having fun. It's the environment around me. Are people experiencing aliveness and play? Are they experiencing accomplishment? Not you know, enjoy. And so that's it's, it's a great measure to know you're doing it are the people around you enjoying being around you because I used to have fun. And then other people weren't having fun. Like as a kid, my teachers weren't enjoying how much fun I was having at school.

Unknown Speaker 46:15
You know,

CK LIN 46:16
you're caught you're the troublemaker who causes ruckus in the classroom.

I really was until until one coach saw who I was. Larry FBA, God rest his soul he just passed a year ago. And sometimes it only takes one. And he was my one. He saw me for more than all the other teachers saw me and he took me aside and he said, If I see your car parked at Donnie wheels house, you're not starting on my volleyball team. He was my coach. And he was the vice principal of my school. And I was like, I'm going to play volleyball I'm not gonna go hang out at Donnies where there was all kinds of dangerous things going on, and he knew it. But he I'm very aware that I may be that one for some kid or for someone for another adult or a friend. And sometimes it just takes that one person to just really believe in you. And he did change the whole course of my entire life was this one coach. And until even 10 years later, I was having a hard time. Sorry, 10 years ago, when my son was two years old. And he was bullying someone at school not to he was in grade. He was in kindergarten, and I didn't know what to do. So I called Larry, my coach. And I says, This is what's happening with my behavior with all of our at school is he's kind of bullying and he's and he's frustrated. And he was probably feeling the divorce. Like he was probably feeling the pull. who knows. And Larry said, Let me tell you a story. I was brought to Kenya because he was a he's a principal of international schools. And he said, they asked me to be a shepherd over the school for one year, but they said don't change anything in the school. And he's like, no rules, no principles, nothing. Just take watch the school for a year. And he's like, okay, but he got there. And kids were being expelled and people were being suspended. And every kids were being made wrong. And the grades were terrible. And Larry's like, Nope, I know, I said that, but I have to change one thing. And he invoked a principle that we're all the kids had to come up with their own consequences when they made a mistake. So he gave the kids the responsibility to take full responsibility for their actions. And he turned that school around in three months, there was no suspension no expels, the GPA shot right up. And in one year, he transformed every one of those hundred and 50 kids lives through that one thing they did, he took away the resistance, the rebellion, he said, You are responsible for your actions, and you have to come up with your own solution, your consequence for your action. So I he didn't tell me what to do with my son, he just told me that story. He goes, try it, if it works for you, it'll work for you. If not, there's a good story. He's just a beautiful human being he taught me how to play volleyball as well. So I took that to my son, and right up even that young, kindergarten, grade one, I said, Oliver, that didn't work, what you're doing, let's put into place your own solution, your own consequence, and he was young not to understand those words. And even at that age, his consequence was so much harder. It's like, going to bed without supper, and no skateboarding and you can take away my Legos. And I'm like, he, his consequences are way harder than mine is like, let's bring it back. Let's bring it back. And he's like, Okay. And, and, and he got so much pleasure and joy out of coming up with his own solution. For, to, for the thing that wasn't working, that he didn't really want to be bullying. He didn't, but he didn't know how to, to create the answer. And through this, through this discovery through Larry, I learned that tool. And to this day, at 15 years old, he if something's not working in his life, I'm like, okay, you get to come up with a way to solve this problem, your own consequence for yourself, and it works like a charm. It inspires him, it inspires him to be a better human being and to to, to be the kind of person where life works for everyone around him. And it makes him responsible for his actions.

CK LIN 50:34
I love that that's like that way of being is you speaking to your coach or your son, you're speaking to them as if they're someone with full sovereignty of who they are. And that's a higher state that I don't care who you are, everyone wants to be to be that right to be responsible for one's action to be rewarding and search to also have the same concept versus external force imposing punishment or consequences or whatever it may be, that what you resist persists, then the natural reaction would be like f you for trying to tell me how to live my life. But in this case, they actually come up with their own consequences. all beautiful way to elicit that sovereignty.

And teaches them discipline teaches him to create his own order to his own chaos a little bit, it gives him the tools and then just makes him into a highly functioning part of humanity, where he's adding value. He's not taking away he was making life miserable. And my experience of parenting him has been so joyful. And so pleasure like he it's just been and I've definitely along the way been given these huge nothing get so these tools that I'm like, I'm that have made parenting and being a father, just just a discovery and so joyful. Yeah,

CK LIN 52:12
beautiful, thanks for sharing actually inspire me to consider like, what kind of my one of my own Thank you. Because for me not having a child and I've been children that it's like, concerns like, I don't want to be irresponsible with this is this responsibility, but through your lens, you show me a different way of like the come from place. Like, hey, this is a different place that you can come from, it's a joyful discovery process for all parties involved versus this responsibility like heaviness light that comes with it. So thank you for sharing that, you're welcome to really, really appreciate it.

Yeah, and to not make him wrong. In that's a distinction I've learned lately, the word being a bit to take away the guilt and the shame from from him is such a gift. And it allows them to really enjoy life when they're not made wrong for their mistakes. And to not be coming from fear or guilt or shame or blame. But to actually be coming from a place that is loving, and not making them wrong for their actions is just, it could transform the whole planet, I feel.

CK LIN 53:28
So on that note, me ask you this question. So one of the epiphany that I have during our meditation retreat is, is that we have effectively, the the ego, and then we have the higher self, in my mind is this my mental model. And it's easy to follow the animalistic desire to be selfish, to care about the self to worry about survival to have anxiousness or to follow anger, all these other things right now, it takes no effort. right to do that. It takes to me effort, to choose to be compassionate, to choose to be forgiving, to choose to be generous to choose to be loving all these other things. So the journey of going from fear to love. This is my personal journey. I feel like having these realizations epiphany and awareness, allow me to see to to broaden that space between stimulus and response. And then to have options to pick, I don't have to default to this reaction, default to this animalistic instinct, to be selfish to do all these things. But nonetheless, still difficult, even though I see the options, I don't always choose. Right. But it seems to me based on the way you speak, is effortless. So can you say a little bit more about that? Is it is it as simple as you from the outside perspective make it seem? Because you have that space? You are now aware of the options that you have? Yeah. And is it as easy as effortless as it? I perceive from the outsider's point of view to pick the higher path? Right? Is it always, it was actually a conscious effortful choice.

choice. Yeah, I understand. I understand what you're saying. And, and it is as easy or as hard as it is to go to the gym and train your muscles meaning at first, it's dreadful. And and it's in it feels like a lot of effort and a lot of conscious thought and a lot of this but you start to feel so good from going to the gym, then after a while or training or yoga or martial arts, whatever, at first. Learning to be really conscious with your kid and raising them in a way that is from love and not fear and is is a challenge. But it's harder for me to be angry, fearful, the in the animal that that other side that you're talking about, because the payoff of that is violent, and it's the feeling from being angry, or frustrated or impatient or judgmental. The I don't think that's easy at all they might be might be a little bit more like you said instinctual in some way but easy is like where life works like like the the My first thought was the gym. Once you start Master, once you start going to the gym, it becomes enjoyable. And then you're like, how did I ever not do this? And is it it's a pretty once you see the results from parenting or from the gym. The momentum starts to make it feel a little bit more effortless, then f it's not a constant effort. It's a constant awareness. And when a trigger comes up where I'm triggered, it's just about learning why what as an access to what's triggering me and why it's triggering me, but I don't I don't feel it's hard. But it but it's like you watch somebody with martial arts who's been training for 10 years, they make it look really effortless, right? Or somebody who can play guitar for just with flow. You're like, Oh, that's so easy, but no, they they've, they've put in the work and now it's effortless. I think the same goes for any any habit that you're trying to transform, or any practice it takes work, but it's it's it's worth it, man. It is worth it. Especially when your measure or your barometer is having an enjoyable fun life that works like it's harder for me to have a life that has chaos and anger and and unforgiveness or resent all of that feels to me way harder than the effort it takes to cultivate love and opening my heart when my heart feels like closing like that is hard work. Right? Like the tendency when you're hurt, or somebody does you wrong is to tighten your chest and close, right, defend, defend it take it's the hardest thing to do is to open when you feel like closing. But it doesn't take too long before you the payoff for opening your heart is right there and the reward is right there. It you feel good pretty quick. closing your heart and protecting and shutting down feels awful. It's so it's it's just I guess it just depends on the angle that you're looking at it from whether it's hard or it's easy compared to what it's it's hard. Little bit but it's but it's a lot harder to to to be in pain.

CK LIN 59:06
So what I hear is this like short term payoff, there it is right to be to follow that animalistic instinct. Short term payoff is fast, like you don't need to feel the pain or whatever long term you pay long term resentment, anger, whatever it may be. And then the other way around short term, open your heart takes a little bit more effort to be forgiving. Yeah, but long term payoff, you get that peace of mind. That inner peace, stillness,

right and the lie is that life should be easy. Life isn't it's not meant to be easy like easy. Life Life. When you don't build muscle by by not like tearing apart the muscle like you don't like the people feel we all including myself self good. Forget that life's like easy is not the goal.

CK LIN 1:00:04
So what is the goal?

I think the goal is joy and enjoyment. And and fun. Like I think the goal, I think the goal is to enjoy even the no matter what your your your circumstances are, whether they're favorable or unfavorable, you find a way to allow it, I think the goal is allowing, allowing, if my son comes in in a bad mood, if I can find a way to allow his bad mood, it takes away that resistance. So I yeah, we're covering a lot of topics. But for me, I find that with, especially in parenting. It's there's so much pleasure that I've found in parenting that it's worth that the short term, quote unquote, hard work of not doing just what comes easy, you know, like, yeah,

CK LIN 1:01:08
beautiful. Yeah. So let's get a little bit more tactical, I wanted people to kind of emulate like, let's say they're inspired by your story, by you're inspired by your worldview inspired by how you show up as a man, how you show up as a leader, how you show up as a parent, how you show up as a, as a musician? What are some that tactical things that they can try on? You mentioned a few books, are there other disciplines that you have, that will allow them to access? The centeredness? So they can be their full self?

Yeah, I feel having a morning practice of some kind is crucial that, that you stay away from your technology in the morning, whether you go for a walk right away, or you have meditation right away? Are you doing your own yoga, something that you just start the day where you're really committed to yourself and your body and, and or journaling? And I think a morning practice that you start to cultivate that turns into a into a tradition is really important. It's like an anchor for your day. And whether that involves coffee, there's something that you do that that helps anchor yourself into going, Okay, I've arrived at this putting a stake in the ground. And I'm a stand for this right now. And it can change over time. But you absolutely have to find a practice of some kind. So what are your practice? I have practice meditation. Okay. So vipassanna meditation is where you go away and do 10 days I did mine in Joshua Tree. And I learned type of a meditation from that where you move energy around, and that's a long one mine and mine that I do is is is around 15 or 20 minutes. And there's a there's a foundation training I do, which is for my back through Dr. Eric Goodman, which is pretty much every day I do a form of it. That is for he works with Laird Hamilton, the big wave surfer and a lot of triathletes Lance Armstrong, and a few a bunch of triathletes. And it's, it trains your entire posterior chain and that's about 11 minutes and that's a series of movements that's to turn on your glutes to turn on your mid back and you're in to bring your so look for the foundation train Dr. Goodman, it's one of my favorite, right and feel so good and it's one of those at the end of the video it's 11 minutes of video you have to start with the shorter one. So start with the three and a half minute one for about a week or two before you do the 11 minute one because you'll burn out too quick you have to end it's online if you just and I recommend his programs everything he's an amazing teacher Eric Goodman foundation training for for prioritizing your your posterior chain in your spine like to keep you in and takes into at the end of the video. He says do this every day. No back pain ever. It's just easy anyway, that's something I do very very consistently my own yoga where I do a series of sun salutations and I hold down dog forever and because I have tight or hips and hamstrings and and I'm always working to get my hips open and my my hamstrings looser so my own yoga flow depends where I am to in Vancouver I have a different routine because I don't have any responsibilities I film a TV series every year for about four months and when I'm alone there then I like then it's kind of like I go for a walk right away or I go to the gym right like I find some way to to put myself as a priority first. And in over the years it's changed I never meditation so has had has become one of those things that I there's some Wim Hof breathing techniques. Are you familiar with Wim Hof? Yeah. That when I go to Topanga to be with my buddy Johan, we do these three rounds of like 70 breaths and we're then we start our meditate and that's a 40 minute meditation. That's how we did that yesterday. And that was something else man. If you Wim Hof is another teacher I did a course with him and brought him here and we had these brought my bathtub to tango, we filled it with ice and this was before he became really well known my friend rich who you met rich brought Wim Hof in and we had a weekend with him. Yeah, personalized. Yeah. Yeah, before he was already The Iceman. But it's before he became you know, he's become I have that that's, it just depends really, where I'm at, in the world to the meditations is very, very important. And when I'm not meditating, I feel it really, really quickly. Because I go into doing and not being. So looking for practices that that ground me and my being this, because we're in a world of just doing like, I gotta do that, I gotta do that. And it becomes this endless spin of doing doing doing, that doesn't bring a lot of accomplishment. And I find being this can bring a lot of accomplishment, we

CK LIN 1:06:36
say more about that, actually. Yeah,

so doing, like doing it can easily be related to being a father to like, you can do the role of a father right. And, and, but when you're being a father is a different thing, it's a distinction of, of doing this is is for me comes from a place where your identity is at stake. If I'm not busy, doo, doo, doo doo doo, then I'm not seeing as a very productive human being. We're being this has a lot of stillness in it, but it also is your your, your, what's giving you the measurement of your success is who you're being not what you're doing. Someone who's been a certain way, will just naturally do certain things, but someone who's out doing a bunch of things, it doesn't really work in the reverse, they're there, it's you don't do that. Let me let me try to explain. So if I am running around, trying to do a bunch of things for my son, like to do like the role of dad, like, take him to the park and take him to skateboarding, and take him and make him you know, make him a great dinner, take them to the beach, and like doing all these things, but I'm not being present. like not being actually with him, I'm just thinking that doing all those things is going to make me something, it's almost it's backwards, it's it's the being this, and then the doing this, and then you get to have it, it's it's almost like we have it backwards, where we wake up. And we're what we're What do we have to do, and we get so busy that we get so stressed out. And I feel like when you're operating from a place of being like being it takes away a lot of the anxiety and a lot of the stress and there's a so much more accomplishment and joy that comes from and that could just be simply that taking the 10 minutes to meditate or 15 minutes to slow down and look at your hands and just actually be in this body for a minute. We were so driven to accomplish and to do things that we forget who we are sometimes. And we get so defined by the things that we do that we actually don't get to create who we want to be or who we are being. And with as being a father, the stakes are really high. Because you know, you there's a lot of dads that probably do a lot of great things for their kids, but they never really, really are. They're being with their kids. Like last night, my son was having a hard time for vault with volleyball practice. And I just came in here, and I just laid down next to him and put my hand up and he kind of put his hand into my hand and I I he just needed me to be there with him not to try and philosophically solve all his problems. And he and then I was getting up to go and he's like, Can you just stay for one more minute. And he's 15 like this is? This is the, for me, the greatest accomplishment of my life to have that kind of relationship with my son.

CK LIN 1:10:02
It's beautiful. It's very inspiring. Yeah. Now, we had a conversation in our meditation retreat where you talked about career versus being a father. I don't know if you remember that conversation I'd love for you do to talk a little more. When you handed a million dollars versus being able to spend time with people that you truly love? Yeah. Right. So if you can speak a little bit more about because this is, as fathers or even just parents in general, it's challenging your heart wants to? Is there for your family? But then there's also some practical, yeah, financial constraints or concerns that dream, that dream that you have for your family for your kids. So there's a trade off? Yeah. So then then how do you make the best choice where you can be there, for your children, for your family, and the same time still, again, goes back to that harmony, right can still have that harmonious environment would have both versus, eithre or.

yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out. Because there's the pull of this career, my career is really taking off and acting is working 20 years at acting, and now it's happening, but it takes me away. So there I am in Vancouver filming, going, wait a minute, I am not there picking my son up from volleyball practice. And that's what life is about. But then I'm going okay, but this allows me to send them to good university, this allows I'm fulfilling on what I my dreams. And so it's not. There's a lot of dads that are away from their kids a lot. And it's like, it is not easy. Because I mean, my dad was gone a ton, he's an oil, he'd be home for two weeks, and then home for a week and then gone for two weeks and at home per week. And that was my life. I'm looking for a way to, to find peace with it. And or just create something here in LA where I don't have to be away from my son at all. And because I only have three more summers to lose 18. Right. That's it. I mean, you get 18 summers with your kid and that's it, then that goes fast. So being a parent, it's it's it is something man, because you will never love. Like you love a kid, your son, your daughter, you will never you love your parents, but not the same way your parents if they're acting nuts you'd be like, I need a break from right. You know, like, let's just I'll catch you later for bed thank you for you know, your kids, you're just like, there's your heart. It's you it is you like it is actually physically you there. And it would you can't. I mean, some parents obviously do treat their children in ways that they were probably treated, or that they treat themselves like with abuse. It's amazing how that gets passed down. But in for when I look at my son, he's me in a lot of ways, and looking back at me, and I get another chance at nurturing that inner child. And that's the biggest gift that they don't tell you what having a kid is you get another shot at nurturing your inner child. And I'm fiercely after that, that with him where I I'm not going to destroy his inner child because he I get another shot at nurturing my inner child by just having a kid. It's so incredible.

CK LIN 1:13:50
It's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that mental model. Yeah. What about tactical things around formulating community, formulating a council of men or whichever way they really support your life? What tactical advice or even ideas can you give to the listeners so that they can have this very strong as you said, mentors or teachers or brothers or you know, that they can call upon when they need to solve their you know, life circumstances

will you was very helpful. Just look at the people you're surrounded with. And you are the average of the five people you spend time with financially, relationship wise, career wise, or spiritually, you are will be the average of the five people you surround yourself with. So choose wisely. I would. The tactical advice is be really honest with your circle, like who are you spending time with? And who are you being like an insult instead of just cutting people off from your life? It's like how do you elevate your your circle. And knowing that the people you surround yourself with are going to heavily influence who you are like in the best of ways and in the worst of ways for sure. So that's it very tactical ways to take inventory of, of your team who you're going through this life with like who you're journeying with, and who's around you. And if it if it's not making your life better, then it's time to make hard changes. It really is. And it's it means sometimes making really painful choices to probably spend some time alone and get clear through something like vipassanna on which is a little intense, but getting to know who you are and then really building your tribe because it might. life has a beautiful way like I don't know if it's tactical, but life has a way of providing what's necessary for you. And these teachers. I didn't tactically go looking for them. They didn't know my coach saw me for who I was my, the other coaches, the other people along the way. I saw something in them that I valued and I got curious and I asked them questions. So a tactical maybe an access would be to be very curious and ask a lot of questions. Really, that that's helped me is to find people that that I see how their life is working. And I'm like what are you doing that makes your life seems like it works really, really well? What is it and then quite often they'll give me a book or they'll give me something like that. But being really really curious. I'm constantly reading or listening to audiobooks or listening to podcasts or watching YouTube videos. I mean, when my entertainment is study that's entertaining like I would I just love learning and I think that if you get really really curious life has a really magical way of providing you what you need.

CK LIN 1:17:07
Beautiful. Any specific podcast they should start off?

I like Joe Rogan's because I like three hours like I love how they dive deep and I like I'll start at the beginning judging someone and by the end of it I'm like oh my goodness like I I'm such a dick like what like cuz it just shows me that if you stay with a human being long enough you can you can discover something beautiful about anyone like and I love that I love the longer podcast because I get to totally transform my point of view and and Joe Rogan seems to and pretty a lot of the comedians I don't really know them so I don't listen to those but some of his like Jordan Peterson is a conservative ish thinker. Maybe he's in the middle, but he's like, he's like psychology clinical psychologist that. A lot of people people don't like and some do like but when you hear him for three hours, you actually get to know who he is. So Joe Rogan's podcast I've learned I've listened to a lot of them Tim Ferriss, I've listened to a lot of Yeah, I've really I really liked Tim Ferriss, there's like a lot of the ones like radio lab where they produce little like, they have actors and they live sound effects and they like my son and I sometimes listen to radio lab in the morning in the car. But then there's like health and fitness people I listened to like Thomas de Lauer who has like a ketogenic intermittent fasting, like intermittent fasting is something that I intermittently do. When I, I'm not sure if the listeners have heard about a bit, probably and look at intermittent fasting has some incredible longevity, and especially for men. bodybuilding, like your muscles when you fast. I sometimes do longer fast too with just water and that found that's a really quick way to get used to water. I've done the idea of five day water fast this year, setting up for an eight hour Mongolian bodywork session with Michael Strickland, he was in Vancouver, he says it was an eight hour the most painful body work I've ever had. So two hours,

CK LIN 1:19:21
we ate our body what a straight

was. So two hours, but we're talking tear the the ancestral armor off of your heart type of work where he's in your chest bone with your elbow. And he said that I had this huge armor here that it took them almost four hours to get off. And but we're talking is like deep sternum, the deep jaw into the stomach deep, but two hours, and then I can do a cold shower with a scrub. And then I stand in the sun for about five minutes. And then I get back on the table for another two hours. And it was eight hours total. But I trained with him for about a year prior. With two hour sessions to our sessions getting ready for this we will have the deepest body work of all other than my teacher, Kathy,

CK LIN 1:20:11
this is just another year as though so

yeah, she's similar type where it's Let's peel off every layer of your resistance until your heart is so open that you can actually feel and see who you really are and who God is without your projection. But if it's just ugly, well, it is such deep, deep, deep work. And I'm actually really curious if you don't mind sharing about that, because more and more I study, like what it means to be a human being. I used to be just as my body was just a stick holding up my head. I was a walking head, right? Then I discovered my body as I Oh, ok. So there's actually a huge transference, right? The body and the mind in our heart and everything is, is an integrated system. It's not just one thing. So for one and have the optimal lifestyle, optimal human being, I need to focus on the whole thing. Then I discovered spirituality is like, oh, there's this other thing that I even know about. Interesting, fascinating. So the more I study what it means to be a human being and my realize my body is just not functioning as optimally as I would like, especially about the thing, the very thing that you said earlier accessing the heart. Right? How do I actually do that in a way? So I'm curious to know, with body work like this, what is the effect of, as you said, dig into that armor? Yeah. Right, because I can feel the body tension. So I know what that is like, but I don't know what that's like to to, to not have this tension. Curious.

Totally. My, my teacher, Kathy, she said to me, You don't have to die to get to heaven, you just have to learn how to let go. And so in this type of body work, when they're pushing into your muscle, you feel every nerve pain going, and then you find a way to sort of like let go into it. And then it's almost becomes like a portal into another dimension through your muscle through your trauma through other in through layers and layers and layers of pain and in shame and guilt and punishment that it's almost like the if they're that type of body worker, they can go right through it to a point where you surrender, and you completely get to the other side. And there is just an incredible I mean, it takes it takes layers and layers. I mean it is it is like scraping. So it takes it's not something that you can go to quickly because you can create more trauma,

CK LIN 1:22:53
right? You buy tense up, like what is this pain? Yes, it is.

But like what going back to the heart, I don't know if you could sum up spirituality any different than opening your heart when it feels like closing so when someone hurts you, spirituality from my perspective is how do you open when you feel like closing like and then finding tools to make that a reality like the heart when you're hurt or when someone wrongs you. The tendency is to protect so if you're really learning in your spiritual practice, he will be opening when you feel like closing and I that type of body work is something that I've attracted or that vibrating foam roller from Viper though Sonia bites come Viper ice, that thing vibrates so deep that I'll put it there and just kind of like let my body surrender into it until the that that the tightness opens. And it's um, I don't know, I think that opening our bodies up is is a is the is such a worthy adventure is to not be rigid and stiff, that's death. That's rigor mortis. That's, you know, you're dead, to find things to do that keep you pliable and soft, both both in your structure of your thought. And in your body is something that I'm really interested in. Yeah, and I'm at 44 I just keep discovering these new tools, and then I get really curious and, and keep bringing them in and and keep discovering new ways to open.

CK LIN 1:24:32
Yeah, in Chinese medicine, the framework is that our body is the vessel for spirit. So when your body is so stiff, it becomes brittle. It breaks easily. Right? Right. I don't know if you ever had experience where you hurt your back or you know your leg and they just like All you think about is the pain versus if you actually maintain it so as as pliable so it's like you know, strong and pliable at the same time then can do so much more because then you don't need to worry about there's a psychological safety is gone. You can do like I can do anything. Yeah, any kind of movement or Yeah, energize my body myself and through my disposal that I have so

I'm so curious. I love to meet Kathy Wendy Cathy's amazing Michael's amazing there's a Kathy Valerie's amazing I have Yeah, I guess as we journey through life, like I said before life provides these beautiful teachers and these beautiful and I add value back to their life that's what I'm not to try to get something from them. I'm trying to like how do I how do I add the value back so that it's equally beneficial and I think that's where you're living your life to is is is really adding value if you want to get paid more money find a way to add value if you want to have relationships that work had make sure you're continuing to add value to others. Thank you.

CK LIN 1:26:00
Hey, I know that we before we start the podcast you wanted to share some gift with us yeah, and if you don't mind sharing I I don't bless us with your music

well this this isn't this is a song that kind of covers the journey that I've been talking about the old ways and for me this is from a movie that's out right now the stars born the The song is about letting the old ways die and what's so interesting about the first time I heard it I was like oh that's sad. He's letting like old traditions die But then I thought the more I played it and the more I learned it I'm like oh no no no this is this is like things that aren't serving you let those die away and and then in here is my journey from fear to love for sure in the lyrics and I just this is musical maybe it's time

maybe it's time to let the old ways to die maybe it's time old ways die takes a lot change man take some a lot try.

Maybe it's time to let the old ways die

nobody knows what awaits for the dead.

Nobody knows what awaits for the dead.

Some folks just believe in things they heard in the things they read

maybe it's time let the old ways die.

I'm glad I can go back to where I came from.

I'm glad those days have gone gone for good

if I could take spirits from my past and bring here you know Wow.

You know i would

nobody speaks to God these days.

nobody speaks to God these days

I'd liked think he is looking down laughing at our ways. nobody speaks these days.

when i was a child they tried to fool me

said a worldly man was lost and hell was real.

But I've seen hell in Reno. This world is one big old Catherine spinning wheel.

Maybe it's time the lead to always buy. Maybe it's time to let the ways die. hell, it takes a lot change plans and a train to change your mind. Maybe it's time that led to the old ways die. Oh, maybe it's time to let the old ways die.

CK LIN 1:30:19
So good.

Yeah, that song It just keeps speaking to me on different. It's not when you first hear that and it hits you one way. And then I listened to it again. I'm like, ah, like I can't let things in the past that the old ways I let them die. At first I looked at it as a bad thing. I'm like no, no way.

CK LIN 1:30:41
I think that any song is like any tool depends on

how you use the tool,

CK LIN 1:30:47
through your voice to who you are, through your way of being and really felt the depth of who you are. And really felt the depth of who you are as a man we as a as a father, we us as a brother. Thank you so much for sharing this so generously. I want to acknowledge you for just how you show up in this podcast as well. I really felt the warmth of your character, you know the warmth of your being. So thank you.


CK LIN 1:31:17
it's a lot on this. Thank you so much.

Me too. I mean, I want to acknowledge your listening as well. You ask the questions in a way and then you're clearing and your listening for something new to come out that I haven't shared in that way before. So it's a joy to be able to, to unpack some of those things. And you brought structure to even some of the chaos meaning sometimes you just have your way your life works. But when someone starts to ask you questions, you start to define some structure to it as to Oh, I'm like, Oh, that's why I do that. And that. So it's actually very insightful. Your questions and you're listening as well.

CK LIN 1:31:57
You discover something new about yourself.

Yeah, for sure in your listening and is if you were a different person across from me, this conversation would have gone incredibly different.

CK LIN 1:32:12
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.