July 26, 2019

031 Jonathan Yudis: How to Cultivate a Thriving Culture For Your Tribe?

031 Jonathan Yudis: How to Cultivate a Thriving Culture For Your Tribe?

Here is my conversation with the co-founder of Camp Mystic at Burning Man   We talked about:   +The origin story of Camp Mystic +Why he continues to return to Burning Man after 20 years +How the founders nurture its high-performance culture...

Here is my conversation with the co-founder of Camp Mystic at Burning Man

We talked about:

  • +The origin story of Camp Mystic
  • +Why he continues to return to Burning Man after 20 years
  • +How the founders nurture its high-performance culture
  • +The buddha and the mosquito story
  • +The benefits of bringing awareness to everyday stresses
  • +When is it good to receive? When is it good to give?
  • +His personal practices to live a spiritual life
  • +The benefits of 30-day sadhana, 90-day sadhana, and 1000-day sadhana
  • +And more

Jonathan Yudis is a Mystic, filmmaker, realtor, advisor, author, artist, actor, ordained interfaith minister, and certified yogi siromani. Jonathan is also a co-founder and co-leader of Camp Mystic, an evolutionary theme camp and community at Burning Man, and a partner in the immersive interactive theme park Mysticland and the Mystic Hotel. Jonathan’s mission is to embrace, embody, and express Divine Consciousness through creativity, spirituality, the arts, and being loving & present.  He lives with an ‘attitude of gratitude’ on the island of Maui with his wife and children.



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CK LIN 0:00
Welcome to noble warrior you hear my friends because you believe that expanding your mindset in service of your highest purpose is what makes life meaningful. Our goal with the show is to introduce you to leaders and entrepreneurs and ideas that will accelerate your self actualization. So if you want to continue this conversation, or ask any further questions go to noblewarrior.com/group. Alright, let's get started. I'm really excited to have our guest today Jonathan, he and and I we met at Burning Man. Here's a narrative that I noticed more and more people yearn for community. And we have a lot of beautiful people in your camp. Some well known some not so well known, and that they found a lot of resonance in the community that you helped co-created. What do you think is the thing that resonate with people so much about this particular camp?

Okay, so mystic I mean, really, the story begins in 1998. I have a dear friend Daniel fromer. he said, there's this crazy festival that takes place in the desert. And it's called Burning Man. And he told and I heard of it. But at the time, like many others, I just thought it was a rave like a big rave in the desert. That's kind of what I that's what I heard. And I had tried to do, I was working on a documentary about the rainbow gathering, you know, there had been a prophecy and Native American prophecy about in the future that we have time when all these tribes of different colors and creeds and come together to sort of celebrate their unity and their oneness. And I wanted to I was like, that's really beautiful. And they said, Oh, it's the rainbow gathering. So I, I was preparing to do a full documentary on it. I went out to it, even though I'd never been there. And I had a crazy experience. There's some wonderful things but it was the only time in my life I was actually sort of unintentionally dosed. There, I, you know, I was given a salad that had a combination of psychedelics or something else, some other, you know, substances in the dressing, and I was not aware of this. So, I ended up, you know, having, like, you know, finding my heart pumping really fast, and I was, you know, tripping and, you know, I was really freaked out and ended up you know, leaving that event and I was actually spent like, two days purging in a motel. Like I was really thankful I even made it to the motel and it was sick and purging this experience. And so after that, I had to cancel that film. And I was a little burnt from like, sort of festivals or you know, parties and all that and so I was like, No, I'm not up for this Burning Man thing. And I said, you go you have fun, you know, but I just I just gave this other one to try it. It didn't didn't work out the way I was hoping. So fast forward to Burning Man is actually going on, and I get a call from him my friend and he basically just is a very simple call and he says, I just left the festival to come back to this little town called Gerlach, which is the nearest town to the desert. And he said, I'm on that back then it was in the 90s there was a payphone. He's like, I'm calling you from this payphone. And he just said, on our friendship, you have to be here. Like, you just have to be here. And I was like, What do you mean? He's like, I can't go into it. I have to go back right now to this thing, but I'm just trusting like, you know, if you value our friendship, I expect you to be here. And I was like, okay,

CK LIN 3:30
so it's almost like an ultimatum.

Yeah, yeah. I just, you know, again, and so I hung up the phone and I kind of turned on my wife and I said, You know, I just had this conversation. He's at this thing and you know, it's apparently he says, I have to be there like and I, I he was serious. Like, he was really like, like, in his respect, reverence, love, for our friendship and who I am. He was really saying, like, I be here, you just need like, so I would. I didn't have anything that was preventing me. I have on a plane from LA to Reno, I found a way and that was of course, by the time I got there it was I think Thursday or Friday and the week of the final like, you know, weekend of the Burning Man. And and I had I was there for literally less than 24 hours and I went out I left the festival got on the pay phone, call my wife, and I said I can't explain it. But you need to get on a plane and you need to get out here like immediately by tomorrow. So she flew out and that's the beginning. So the three of us pitch together our small tents and put a little tarp above us and and I kind of feel like a camp at Burning Man, at least certainly at the beginnings of it is about survival. It's about like putting pulling your sources so that you can survive the dust storms and have a little bit of food together and just kind of help each other out. So that very first year was the first year of our camp mystic although we didn't call it cam mystic then and then the next year like I left burning on that year and was so like, my heart was open my I was, you know, told my mind was blown. I was so creatively inspired and spiritually inspired. I just sort of felt like, for me personally, this is this playground and combination of art and community and spirituality and creativity and, you know, radical free self expression. And, and at that time, there was actually more anarchy. It was everything. And I just sort of was like, you know, this is the best, this is incredible. So, I wanted to do a film about it because I was a filmmaker. And so you know, it's kind of like, what's your medium, and I kind of it as an artist, it's like, whatever you're meeting, if you're a writer, and you do something that really inspires you, you're like, I gotta get my pen and paper out. And if you're a poet, you write a poem, or if you're a songwriter, you want to do a song. Well, I was a filmmaker at that time. And, you know, I was like, I have to make a film somehow about this thing. And so I decided I was going to do a big art project. Next year, which again, for burners, they would really understand this, that often for me, at least I'll be at Burning Man. And then as soon as I leave Burning Man, I get inspired, I get an idea, a concept of vision for the next year. And I'm like, and you can spend much of the following year preparing and putting it together. So for me, that was a project that was called hands. And the vision was to get as many people as possible to create a human chain of linked hands, celebrating unity and diversity. And the film was going to be about the artists behind like all my friends that were going to help me manifest that project. And so it was kind of like at the real world. At the time, that was the only reality show that was out and so we were like, we'll film everything will get an RV will get you know, we'll just film us trying to do this project going to Burning Man and see what happens. And that was, so that year, you know, camp was more like 20 plus people because we brought everybody for the film and the people that. Were like wanting to go to Burning Man and that was really to the second year of camp and camp just kept kind of growing from there you know because every year like we I that second year I brought Cyberia Rex C-Rex. It was really like, you know, one of the primary other key founders that still to this day is, you know, making camp thrive and grow. And, you know, it's kind of like it's back with backbone with me and others. And, and that's kind of how it spreads is that you bring those that you love fromer's and that you know what, appreciate it. And that's why I'm so indebted to disco llama, that's, that's Daniel farmers planning. So because because he knew he just knew that he knew me well enough to be to know like, this is something that's going to really rock your world and that's important for you. And then I feel like that's what everybody does. You leave and then you're inspired. And so you're you find the people in your life that that you know, it's also going to do that for them and you invite them back and and so that's kind of how the camp grew. And then but you know, Burning Man is 70,000 plus people. So Miss mistake is, you know, never been more than I think our largest here was 225 to 250 people and even then we pulled it back and we try and keep kept no bigger than 200 every year because we value intimacy. Right. And when it gets too big, you lose that really that intimacy.

CK LIN 8:20
Yeah, even at 220 it's really difficult to know everyone

Yeah, that's kind of one of our goals is that even at the end of the week, that you're not going to see somebody at camp that you don't at least know a little bit that you haven't, you know, recognize their face or see a connection with. And so yeah, so that's ahead, but Mystic. So I, the way I would describe camp is I often say it's like a satellite or an antenna, and it's a collective magnifier of our energy of the energy of the participants that created or the community and I feel like that beam of energy is sent out in the world. And it lives through what we're doing. It lives through our art through us being present through whether there's yoga and healings and, you know, thought leaders doing Ted, Ted style talks or workshops. There's parties at night. And there's, you know, so there's all these activities. And so those are all projecting this energy that people that feel in alignment with it kind of resonate with, and, and that's how it continues to grow. You know, and that's, that's how it continues to thrive.

CK LIN 9:32
That was beautiful. So, community is one of those things that people continue to talk about, especially in our modern times. Why do you think that is?

I mean, you know, community is really what it's all about. I think that community on a small scale is what our families are, you know, the family unit is it's a small community, it's you and the people that you love and that you want Take care of and that you care about and, and then that just expands. And, you know, there's tribes, which are collections of family or chosen family. And, you know, when it just depends on how far it spreads. But you know, people feel a sense of identity in community when there's commonly shared values. So, you know, might be a city or a city state in ancient times, and then like a nation. And then there's countries. And I feel like one of the things that we're where we're currently at, in our current, global evolution is really coming together as a global family, you know, as a, as a synthesized collective of humanity or there. And once you do that, you know, you find common ground or things that you all agree on or agree that you're going to honor that are important, and it allows you to operate at a larger scale. I know it gets into things that people might consider controversial, but if you look Look at the larger body of the cosmos. And I guess what I like to say I don't like to get into topics that people would not understand or think, you know, that might be, quote unquote, unverified or proven. But if you just imagine how vast and great the universe is, and even scientifically it's been proven, how many galaxies there are, how many, you know, planets, there are, how likely it is that there is not just life outside of the earth, but that there's, you know, the universe is teeming with life. So, from that context, a planetary culture would only be welcomed into a larger galactic culture, if it was mature, you know, so and a sense of maturity really translates into when you're not going to be destructive or direct threat to the larger community. So it would be like if you were at a play school with children and you You know, you had a room and you wanted all the children to play. And as long as they could generally get along and play, then they'd be welcome there. But if there was a little child that was in the collective that was, you know, taking a scissors and, you know, swinging it around or stabbing other kids like that child would be removed, and you'd have to make it so that that child was mature enough or capable of behaving with other children so that he can be part of that community. And so like, That, to me is one of the important things in terms of our larger culture right now in in, you know, supposedly, what we call the year 2019. is operating from a place where we like, they're just a few of these sort of central tenets, where we understand how we're all connected, and that everything is interconnected. So this isn't really political at all, but we, you know, this gets into like, how we treat our environment, how we take care of it, how we nurture it in in our own, you know, to take care of ourselves and evolution and not not operating from a place of competition and warfare. You know, if we could live harmoniously and be not desecrating the planet, then we could be welcomed much more openly into the, you know, galactic scene into the cosmos of other highly evolved and really wonderful inspiring beings. So I know there's a large answer, but you know, it really does come down to this what you asked about camp and the mystic community, I feel like the people that are attracted to mystic and that seemed to be resonating with the energy and our values. values are a big part of what makes community thrive and work. Our people that even though we come from different walks of life, and I think maybe different aspects of political spectrum, I certainly know that we're different religions were different ethnic backgrounds, right? Super diverse, very diverse in that sense. But I feel that these elements of getting that aspect of interconnectedness and interconnectedness not just with each other as humans, but with other species and the planet itself, and a real sincere desire to see humanity and society and our planet thrive and to be a contributor, I feel like we are collective of people that want to be contributors, and it's very in alignment with Burning Man. Because Burning Man, one of the things is participation. And I love always really loved that, you know, they've always said even if you have a camera, we don't want people to come to this event or this community or this experience, and be a spectator, a spectator sort of automatically intrinsically separate. So I'm on the outside, you're on the inside. And I'm going to take a picture of you so you know, it's it's a, it's a model of separation, participations, complete opposite where it's like, there, you might be there and I might be here, but We're not on two sides where, you know, it's there's a level playing field. And we're both participating in this play in this experience in this movie. So one person might be filming and one person might be acting, but it's you know, you're both participating and I and so there and I feel like participation I love but then in a way almost like one step further is this desire to collaborate and this desire to contribute and one other value that is one of our mystic values is what we call radical compassion. And so you know, to be compassionate to be you know, towards others towards ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 15:38
So, I asked that question because well, I came from a startup cultural background okay my main responsibility was to curate environment a culture a ethos Where is conducive for high performance right? And I got a taste of that I can mystic way. Its culture from my My point of view is not the sum of the individuals. It's an emergence. Right? from, you know, the unique magic. That's the secret sauce that everyone brings. And, you know, something magical happens when, when you have just the right people, the right container to just build beautiful things together. So, how much was it to be intentional? How much was an accidental? That's such a magical and I use that word loosely or intentionally. that emerged from Camp Mystic

You know, I think in, in all honesty, or to be like to look back, I think it would probably be 5050 Yeah, you know, and I only say I because I feel like the accidental part would be more like the early years, you know, because I mean, part of it wasn't always intentional because I feel like from and again And they're different leaders of mystic and they're different, you know, there's different, you know, a few of the cofounders. And they're different leaders and they're different contributors. And I said, so, you know, I feel like we each brought our, like, as you just said, Our unique special sauce. So for me, a lot of it was always prayerful, you know, that was kind of one of the angles that I always had was to take my forehead and put it down against the earth or the playa, and, you know, be be saying a prayer, you know, saying, I don't understand everything. I don't know how this is going to unfold or how this necessarily works in the mystery, but, you know, it's my prayer that that you know, that would these these impulses in my heart, you know, for people coming together for people, you know, loving one another and loving who we are, where we come from, like that was always there. But it was also accidental in the sense that it was in the context of needing to have enough water? Are you going to? Who's bringing the you know, so who's bringing the you know, some extra cans of beans? I mean, I mean, the early days, it was very, very tactical. Yeah. So it was it was not like in the early days and by early days, I mean, really the first decade that we were getting together and saying like, Hey, you know, not even like a business, like even in business, you, you have a board or you have a collective of people that are going to sit down, look at each other and say, Okay, what are we doing? Right? What's our objective? How are we going to get there? Who's going to do what? It wasn't like that? It was, it was it was very, you know, like, who's good, who's coming year to year changes, right? If you have a few people that are the same or that know how you did it last year, that's a blessing, you might not, you know, and Burning Man itself was changing. And when you add in, like, you know, some years it was really about an art project a lot more in the early years, it camp was just much more of a survivalist place where we can exist. And our focus was the art. We were really like always doing art like a bigger art project that we could contribute to the larger experience of Burning Man itself and it was only in the last in latter 10 years you know and more recently that camp started becoming like what its current version or the community and like all these just amazing amazing people and that there for me there was a really specific shift where it was originally more about Burning Man and my time and experience was more out in the city or on the playa and then all of a sudden just producing and leading camp became a major you know thing and then and then it got to the point where a few years ago I realized Wait I although I want to continue Of course doing specific art projects. I was like camp itself, this community and doing whatever we do and bringing all these people together and trying to give them the best experience I saw like that is my artistic contribution right to the city and to Burning Man and to mystic itself. You know Like so, yeah, it's almost like you're if there was a museum, it you don't know it's a museum, you're just kind of hanging out and doing cool things with artists. And and then it grows and then you know, at some point, you know, you're like we should actually build something here. Like physically we need to build something where we can hold all these artists and and at some point you realize while you are an artist that if your goal is that the museum itself is art, like then that becomes the project, you know, and I know like, you know, one of our other leaders of camp, Genevieve, aka Jennifer Russell, you know, she puts so much love and commitment and passion not only into putting camp together and organizing and managing and visioning and but we have this mystic theater, which is our main kind of shade structure, but where our opening and closing ceremonies are and where the party is and where the talks and panels and workshops, a lot of them are house there. And so Just the the actual construction of this from the scaffolding to the rebar to draping it to, you know, covering all the walls with white sheets so that, you know, we can use mapping computer computer mapping and projection. It's really like it's, you know, like I feel like that's her art project that's your, you know, it's it's a living canvas and then you could go even further when you add in the cosmic art temple and our healing dome and the dining hall and the way that we create the neighborhoods, we've got somebody who's got an architectural or, you know, city planner type background, who works out our map and so we asked people are you really more social or more introverted, and we, that's what's going to define where they are in, in our camp and so you know, people that you know, need a little bit more privacy and intimacy in that way can have it. People that want to have their door or their tent unzipped all the time and have people walking through That they can just say, Hey, are you, you know that that's more of a social neighborhood. So but these are all examples of intentionality. So this latter incarnation of the community has definitely been more intentional and even now for our opening ceremony. That's one of the really big things is and that I completely love that, that that this has evolved into this. And I've learned a lot like I try as hard as I can to bring this consciously into my day to day life into my moment to moment, which is, what are your intentions, you know, because it's like the if you get out of bed, they're sort of the habitual actions, okay, you get up, you go to the bathroom, you get into your car, you drive, you know, so you might go about things, but the auto mentality of things, and then there's the cross side, like I said, There's a wonderful story. I remember I was told, I think, some guru told me this story was talking about again, going back to it. I seem to be resonating a lot this month. With Buddha with Gautama because maybe it's because it's his birthday or this month, but he told the story and it's really about intentionality. He was in meditation. And there was a mosquito flying that like, you know, landed right, you know, on it's like, it was either as Ayers Island or something and he just, you know, swept it away, you know, instinctively, you know, just as we, as I think anybody would relate to. And then, later on somebody that was that there was one of his early devotees or disciples that wrote a lot about the Buddha, because he made up he made this the Buddha granted him a boon, you know, he granted with a wish. And his wish was that he could follow him around all the time, because he just was so obsessed with him, that he wanted to see him and that's one of the reasons we have so much detail and what Wonderful teachings of the Buddha because he probably would not have it except that he had granted this person on this boon of being of whatever he wanted. And what he asked for was that he could be always with the Buddha, wherever he was, it actually got got the Buddha in trouble some of the time because those close around it didn't always want this guy around, but he always was around and he wrote everything down. And one of the things that he observed was this thing with the mosquito, but but the interesting part was that like an hour later, in the Buddhist sort of came out of meditation, and very, very slowly, like lifted his hand and did this motion where it just sort of crazed his eyebrow, and, you know, went back down and he asked, you know, what was that? What was that you just did, what was that about? And he said, You know, it was it was related to the mosquito. And the person said that the mosquito wasn't there, you know, it was gone. And he said, I, he said, Yeah, I recognize that but When I first did that movement, it was not intentional. And I needed to I wanted to do that Express, just use express myself in that way but do it intentionally. And so it's just the degree the minute degree of the power of intention and doing doing every action consciously. So at the mystic mystic opening ceremony, we sort of asked everybody just where you're at in your life, some people are, have just gotten divorced, some people are about to get married, some people are, you know, just starting a new chapter in their life and everybody's coming at it from a different place, but it brings everybody into the present. And, and it allows them to say, I'm going to be here for the next 72 hours for the next week or, and, you know, what is it that's important? What is your intention for this time in your life, and and it's not just to ask them but then we write down and record the intentions and we put them on this big board so everybody's face and picture name is on our board, and Everybody else can look and say, Oh CK, you know, I saw that your intention this week is to be more intentional and just just as an example of meta, meta meta and and then they could say, Oh, well, we're doing an intentionality walk to the temple later, or we're going to do a bike ride and, you know, and so everybody else is sort of empowered to help everybody manifest their intention. If somebody is, you know, and people are usually very honest, sometimes we will say, I'm going through a deep mourning period, where I'm very confused right now in my life, I barely even made it here. My intention is just to you know, have more self love, you know, and so, when somebody else sees that empowers them to think about, how can I help that person with that? So, so nowadays, I would say things are much more intentional.

CK LIN 26:52
And I asked that question. Also, because a lot of people are looking at high performing organizations, I would consider Camp Mystic to be one of them. Having these magical emergence phenomenal, right? I mean call it cool, you know, high performing culture, whatever you want to call it just name their things seems to be in flow. Yeah. Right. So how can you, I guess, package everything up in a playbook and then hand it to someone say hey do this is this is the recipe to create a high performing organization? Or must they go through the process as we share with each other and the survival and the security and the you know, follow the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And then once you get hung up infrastructure, then you can work on the self actualization, Self Realization, etc.

I think like many things in life, it's a both and I think that there's definitely merit and value in looking at it from more of a tactical kind of, I guess you could say maybe business or strategy stay endpoint and looking at Okay, what are what are the elements? what it what do you do? And what does it look like? And from that, you know, come up with some kind of, you know, organized written ABC DF, like, these are the elements that contribute to this, or at least that we observed contribute to this outcome. Great phenomena. Yeah, it's phenomenal. And I think that that's effective and worthy and worthwhile. I also think that if you are only focused on that, or only do that, it's literally only half the picture. Because it would be like, I'm trying to think of it, you know, I think of it a lot like a magic trick. And there's, I'm not talking about, you know, authentic magic because when I say the word magic, where I say, Burning Man, excuse me, or camp mystic is magical. I mean, I'm talking about like, true magic, like authentic magic that exists. What does that mean? You know, in the mystical the ineffable the miraculous as people call it like that, which is amazing and, and yet we we can't understand it. It's beyond our ordinary comprehension but it but it happens. So that's different than a magic trick in a tradition that we have of like Houdini, David Copperfield, Criss Angel you know there's a lot of great Penn and Teller I'm you know, the list goes on none of magicians who are have actual tricks that are not that are meant to look like magic and appear to magic and amaze people. But there is a trick, you know, there is a gimmick, there is some some sort of you can explain to them and the reason the way that I would explain it and what you were asking is what makes that form of a magic trick. What I'm just before I go on there some magician Oh, David Blaine. I just wanted to point out just mentioned Dave. I was kind of going through this little list magicians before and I left out David Blaine and I think he's pretty amazing he's amazing and I love what he's done with street magic and just Yeah, I just wanted to get him on the list two guys doing cool things but with with magicians that are doing those kind of gimmick magic tricks that are phenomenal and people are loving or amazed you know, any magician will tell you that the gift of the trick is in people not knowing and that's why they're so obsessed and secretive about the trick and you know, try not to let it get released and what what anybody who has peel the veneer back who's especially now like, even on YouTube now they're like these videos of how did so and so do this trick and you know, and what they don't understand is that it ruins it like the minute you the minute you can pull the curtain back and see a little man standing there who's who's the Wizard of Oz. The mystique of like the wizard disappears and you know The magic of the the effect of the magic trick is no longer valid or fun and enjoyable, and then you can't enjoy it anymore. So it's like this weird. It's not even, it's not even just demystify, it's actually devalued even more. Yeah, because you actually see the older man behind the curtain sweating and pulling all the different levers to make the precisely their life. So, so what I was going to say is if we just do the tactical, strategic sort of type, a business approach of this is how we're going to have the most intentional community, you know, or this is how we're going to manifest magic and success, you know, it would be like, you know, it would be like half of a magic trick, you know, and so, I feel like the other half is the true magic or what I'm saying is authentic magic or the miraculous or the mystical or, you know, it's, it's kind of like when you make an intention and You put a lot of effort into focusing on it and you know, and then you let it go into the universe. If you don't have that last part where you've let go, you've done your thing, you've made it clear, you've, you know, defined it, you've, you know, done some kind of ritual. So you've done all these steps, and they're really powerful and necessary. But if you if you hold on tightly, and are then like, okay, now what now what the outcome can't unravel and unfold. That's how I see the way the universe works is that there's this last part where you need to let it go into this vast mystery. And let the part that you can't control that you can't manifest on your own happen, and that's how it happens. So that's the that's all I would say is that I feel like there's an important aspect of that. And one other thing that I would say about again, I'm using this stick because it's a very specific community here is, is that there's a large part of it which is like The collective almost exponentially magnified aspects of what we're creating. So if there's one person who's really happy, that's wonderful, but we're expressing joy and open and creative, and then you know, but then when another comes in, it magnifies it for a bit more, and then there's three, and then there's four and, and then what happens is there's this collective energy. And so at that point, when when it crosses some sort of threshold, somebody walks in, and they're not in that same place. They're depressed. They're sort of jaded, they're cynical, they're not creative. They're, you know, all these other things, but they come into the room and like one of two things can happen either one, they just feel that lack of resonance and alignment and are like, leave because they're like, I don't like this. I don't feel comfortable. I don't do happy Yeah, and they rejected and leave and then but but what happens, in my opinion most of the time at Burning Man itself, which is when I say oh Burning Man, it's so magical level, why would I still be going back to this place this this thing after 20 years, right? It's this element of talking about right now, what happens is that that person comes in and it might take a little time and it might be a little challenging for them to soften for them to be a little confused or but at some point they just literally start to be absorbed and take on that energy. And you know, now I'm not saying they're going to 100% transform but there's some aspect of that jadedness that skepticism, that sadness with real life that is is released and is dissipated. And, and so I really do believe in that aspect of collective consciousness where there's this energy that's created co created by people and then when people come into it, they are amazing. absorbed into it. And it just like I, in my opinion, the way I would describe it is it just brings out the best in us. And especially when the energy is one of authenticity, vulnerability, and support, and I feel like those are all elements that we really encourage in our community, you know?

CK LIN 35:19
Let's actually follow up with with two questions. One is, as a curator of this culture in this environment, how do you actually cultivate that? Right, so that so that's one question. The second question is, because I also have heard people coming into a community, like Camp Mystic is actually quite intimidating for them. And I, myself when I first were introduced to the energy is like, wow, everyone's so self expressed. What's the deal, right? And then and then is it authentic? And it was, so in that actually, I can talk about my own personal experience. But when someone new coming into a new culture, new environment, how do you adapt To: Well, one, check in with yourself, see if this resonates with you and to now that you say, okay, yes, it is how do I adapt to this particular energy level? So I guess that's the two questions I wanted to ask you.

Well, you know, I mean, we have like, for camp in particular, we have like a sponsorship program. So the people that, you know, register for camp need to be sponsored by somebody. And the only reason is because like I said, with only 200. And, you know, spots because we want it to be intimate, at least in its current incarnation. We're at the point now, where we want to cultivate, you know, a community that understands our values, and that really are kind of excited and passionate to be a part of it. And it's fine. There's, like I said, there's over 70,000 people that are at Burning Man. So there's so many places for you to experience, the event and the community and all of it. So we're just saying if you're going to come in, and we have a lot of there's certain responsibilities and commitments that we asked the people. We also want to make sure that that there's an alignment there you know so so sponsorship is one of the reason that's kind of we found we it wasn't always like this but is the basic thing is if you you've been there and you know what it is yourself and then you know somebody that we don't know then that's just part one is like if you feel like oh no they don't fit in Derby you know one of them you know they're they're going to connect with this they understand us and I think they're going to enjoy it then great will then bring them in but then you become their sponsor and and at the event itself, that's really powerful because just in case something comes up they have a first line of somebody that can help them somebody that can say oh, you know, you haven't been drinking enough you're a little dehydrated and let me get you some water. Let me show you around. Let me If by chance and this is very, very rare, but if there was any form of disconnect or conflict or anything conflict resolution that we have somebody that knows them that we can kind of work with the sale you know, like that. That's kind of part of it. So there's that element. And then we ask specific questions, we say, you know, can you look at our website, our Manifesto, our kind of values and what we're, what we, how we express ourselves and what we're about. And if there's a resonance, then, you know, the two questions essentially boil down to what about one of our values, you know, resonate makes sense to you that you know, that you like or that you respond, respond to? And the second part is, how do you think you could be a contributor to this you know, how do you see yourself you know, being a part of this and and that's the first line of us asking, What are you good at? What are your gifts? What are your talents and how, you know, how can we bring you in and welcome you into this family, whatever tribe?

CK LIN 38:48
So I guess I'm hearing two things. One is social filtering aspect of it. The other one is self selection. Hey here, values do you sell? You identify with these, the best of your ability of my Understanding. And then Ben, you say yes. Then you self select-in.

Yeah. And I mean, again, it might sound silly, but there are a lot of people that are like, Hey, you know, I'm just going to Bernie man, I don't want to answer any questions. And that's totally fine. I respect that. 1,000% You know, like, if somebody said, I just want to go to Burning Man, you know, have this crazy experience have, you know, run all around not need to be anywhere, anytime I would say it sounds sounds amazing, like you're gonna have a great burn. And this is probably not the right place for you to, you know, have that experience. Right. And so yeah, filtering but I feel like a filtering that works for both parties for everybody. And the self selection very, you know, so. And then, you know, but again, you're as if you're talking to me on a totally personal basis later, and these are all like, I'm just kind of breaking down how things have filtered out and I think it's working. I mean, you know, I'm just observational feel like this is working. Our community seems to grow and thrive and keep getting better. I'm definitely personally on the on the other side, like, what's the other side Jonathan, aka cosmic cowboy. The other side is like, I don't really get caught up in any of the details, like all of that is just you know, there's a Yiddish term like minutiae. You know, like tonight another theater, I think it is ok has many, you know, to me, it's the other side. It's like bowing down to the divine in humility, in vulnerability in prayer and just saying, you know, I want to, I want this to grow. I want there to be a vessel where the most amazing people and beings can, you know, share their gifts and can thrive and that where, you know, there's like a very big spiritual model where, you know, Yogi's masters. You know, The goal of life itself like one of the ultimate things would be to have, you know, a bouquet of roses. But the roses are other beings that you're laying at the feet of the Divine that you're basically saying I used my opportunity here to, you know, share the love to and to collect these roses like it is a really good analogy because if you love somebody, if you have a partner that you love, you know, what, how do you express that? Well, one way is and again, in the in the traditional sense for many, many years, there wasn't a flower shop, you didn't go to a flower shop know you would go out into the woods in the wilderness wherever you live. And you would consciously have this experience where you were immersed in nature and you were loving nature and you were revering nature and connecting to the earth, and in that experience, you would look at this flower and you would, you know and again, it depends on your relationship to who you'll be sharing it with if you might smell their flower and have a whole interaction and then bucket, if this was somebody that you really, really loved tremendously that you were like, you know, revering on a deep level, you wouldn't even smell the flower because that would be that would be in its in some way sort of taking away from that offer. But you would gently pluck it. And at the end of this experience, you'd have this bouquet of beautiful expression of the colors and fragrances of, of the earth and nature. And you'd have this whole thing that you this experience where you might have spent all afternoon collecting this and that's like a bouquet of roses and then you hold the door opens and your love, you're the person that you respect is there and you offer that as an expression of your love. Well, you know, from a spiritual perspective, that's the greatest thing you could do is if you have attained a level of conscious realization, you spread that out but you open your heart you create that channel where that energy can flow through you, not in an egoistic sense, but in a in a surrendered sense that your body is sort of become this vessel through Rich that energy can circulate and flow and people resonate with that and then they're like, I want some of that or where does that come from? And you know, that's how realization spreads and all those beings that have actually acquired a deeper state of conscious realization become a flower that at the end is also again it's not for you, it's an offering. So I know that's a again I don't know if any of this makes sense and that's kind of a strange answer but so that to me, that's the part that I'm personally into the you know, that's the part so for me it's less about sponsorship questions and answers and sure, but but I totally respect both sides of the coin. You know, they're working, they work together.

CK LIN 43:44
The older I get, the more I appreciate the yin-yang symbol. There is so much wisdom in that and and I love the fact that there's a little bit of white in black, was it a black in white really perfectly run into

my very first film Production Company was called union production. when I was in high school, in ninth grade, we had to do, you know, be it was like a major, like 20 page research, project paper. And, and I did mine on acupuncture. And so I had to learn a lot about. I mean, the philosophy of DNA is definitely a part of that somehow you came into the I think that's where it came from. But I also like you, I totally one of the reasons I love the yin yang so much is because it's actually I love when a symbol of visual symbol, you know, has perfectly you know, it's like a perfect rendition of itself, like a yin yang is one of the rare symbols where you don't need any teaching. You don't need any paragraph underneath it. If somebody looks at it, you can actually understand what it is and what it means and what it represents, even if it's done, you know, drawn correctly, that the Black Lives runs into it becomes the white the white fades and becomes the black and there's the perfect Dodson. Yeah, so it's really good when it comes to balance and harmony and understanding the value of duality. It's pretty, pretty awesome.

CK LIN 45:16
So you touched upon it a little bit, you said, you know, you feel that the communities thriving is doing Well? if you can articulate a little bit more about how do you know that? Right, it is a feeling of it? Is it an observation of some sort? Um, I mean, like, what are you in it? And I know that I'm asking you a question from a very masculine very Yang, you know, like very, like, tell me your proof. Right. But I think for the people that are listening to this, they want to know how they can build or create or co create or foster cultivate a thriving community, right? And we all ...let me correct that. A lot of us want that right. So then How how do you actually know

I think that's one part of it is part of it is objective and more subjective and, you know, personal in the sense that, you know, this is in particular community that's been growing and cultivated for over just over 20 years now. And so I've been able to observe, you know, I get ebbs and flows, and when it was sort of, you know, hurting and, you know, barely surviving or kind of taking a dip and going through some challenges and some changes and growing and evolving and, you know, and so there's the personal experience of like, knowing, oh, this is it's working, it's going well, I mean, I think a lot of that is one we're at, you know, Burning Man in particular. And it that week, but now we just did the first or mystic, you know, mid burn or mystic festival event on our own outside of burning now. And it was really I feel like the magic was there, and it was special. So that's really exciting that we're we want to cultivate this But not just at Burning men, but you know, all over the world and in many different ways. And that's kind of its evolution and what's happening now. So outside of the personal which, and subjective feeling that I got, which, you know, is neither here or there to anybody else, I think the signs of something that's thriving is when you see the joy in people, you know, so people's direct experience, you know, the difference, it would be like the difference between lip service and authentic joy, you know, so lip service is, you know, like, Hey, I had a great experience, you know, or somebody who's going to write that or, you know, give you a compliment because they just want to make sure that they're going to be invited again, or they want to know there's there's that versus when you just see somebody who's, you know, radiating joy who's who's really or you see somebody who you didn't know or that at the beginning of the week look like they might be a little intimidated or a little bit more quiet. And at the end of the time period, you know, you see them running around. You know, they're in a beautiful costume, or they're on stage and, you know, in their element or dancing and, you know, so these expressions of people, and joy, in my opinion is a really good reference point. You know, if you're living in joy and expressing joy, and you're happy, and, you know, that's when I say thriving, I mean, not doesn't mean 100% of the time. We also have, you know, you know, there's all these things, whether it's shamanic circles, or we did a walk once as a group to the temple where people could collectively mourn and release and kind of go through some kind of catharsis of things that they needed to purge in their lives. So it's not to say that it's all, you know, bubbly laughter and fun, but the overall effect is, you know, people that seem like they're happy in their own skin, that they're, you know, they're not, you know, use the term before when You said actualization, and I feel like for me right now, like in this present moment, it's one of the most important present, you know, element like things that I love to just, you know, sort of share or talk about, which is, you know, the value of what is happening right now. So, that to me is is connected to this is it how do you know, it's thriving, how do you know it's working, if something is working in the present tense in the present, then is working, you know, and and i think that it's contrary to what so much of life is, at least it the way I was brought up and the kind of perspective that I'm coming from everything we think or have been taught, like, everything leads to everything else. And so everything you do is kind of leading to the next thing. And whenever there's that element of like, you know, I'm doing this so that I can do that again, in order to going here so that I can go you know, I mean, classic model is, I'm going to work hard when I'm young and in school so that I can go to a good college, I'm going to work hard in college, so that I can get a good job, I'm going to get a good job so that I can have money and provide for my family, I'm going to have money and provide for my family so that my kids can thrive and so that I can retire. And you know, and then I'm going to end up the I'm going to retire and I'll have money. So at that point, I can have relaxing, fun experience before for that last little phase in the sunset of my life before I transition. But, you know, these are all like stepping stones and it's sort of I my opinion, it's, it's not in real alignment with life like if life is always just happening and flowing. And the more we sink into it, the more amazed We are the more you know, the more we are just blown away and total blissed out in the mystery of it all, and so actualization even on the spiritual path, like even on the spiritual path. It's amazing how many people are naturally caught up in the path itself. You know, the classic if you see the Buddha on the road kill him, or you know, understand, or you never heard that one No. Basically, like if you see the teacher on the road, keep moving or kill them is this classic phrase, if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him and know where it's coming from is the attitude of not getting caught up in the teachings, not getting caught up in the journey. Even if you're given a tool, you want to use that tool, but again, there's this element of like, I'm doing this to get to here and even if here is realization, even if here is enlightenment, or liberation, which for people that are on the spiritual path, those are Some common terms you know enlightenment realization, Moshe liberation. You, you need to have a perspective of actualization in the practice itself. Or else, you're like everybody else, you're just doing something and you're focused on at the end of this process at the end of this experience I'm going to get here, as opposed to, I mean, you know, as opposed to another of my very favorite cons that make more sense now than they ever did, which is the Zen con, before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood carry water. And that one, you know, is referring to that element of enlightenment, while it is real and possible, it doesn't. Nothing changes, you know, the world doesn't change. You know, you're wherever you are, whatever you're doing, whatever your life entails prior to that realization revelation experience is going to be Exactly the same you know if your daily responsibilities involve going out to the woods to chop wood, and going to the river to get water so that you can bring it back to your house and survive for it, you have fire in your water, being enlightened, doesn't change that one iota, there's no aspect of your life that's going to be any different. And if you don't go get that water and go get that would, you know, at least you know, your body itself would perish, you know, so if you want to have sustenance of the body, you need to keep doing those things. The enlightenment that they're referring to is is an inner experience of perception, where the way you perceive the world, the way you perceive your own experience, and everything is what shifts and you know, and so that's what they say about you know, becoming free or becoming liberated from things. You know, that's that's what it's kind of about.

CK LIN 53:55
Thank you for that. Am I my own interpretation, my own mental model about the word enlightenment is akin to the word awareness. Yeah. So enlightened means to some are more aware. Now I have options to choose between stimulus and response, which one which response to I wanted to choose, I can choose easily to dwell in my, in my anger in my upset in my resentment, which is takes no effort to do that at all, or I can choose to come from love come from forgiveness come from generosity. That's right. It takes probably a little bit more effort. Yeah, and the default. So I'm curious to know your thoughts. We're delving into now more of a spiritual conversation now. So a lot of people would imagine that once they get enlightened life would be blissful the entire time, regardless of what's happening, what circumstances coming your way. How would you articulate that to them, based on your current understanding of spiritual journey, the circumstances of life, etc.

Yeah, and I think, I think it's important before we even get into it to recognize that, you know, when you try and talk about a lot of these, you know, kind of spiritual philosophical topics that definitions and you know, clearly sort of are important because the word even enlightenment means one thing to one person and it means something else to somebody else. So you might not even be talking about the same thing. So, I think it's great, you know, what you're saying and trying to be as articulate as possible is important. You know, I think that some of the terminology that I think serves the term enlightenment because it's very vast and you know, expansive and like to me all of these great topics or elements of the spiritual journey and path our I love the mystery. I love the they all lead to the space where words of any kind definitions of any kind desecrate them, you know so so so it's like that again there is an abstraction on that to Dallas perspective of you know those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know you know the minute that you if there's something that is nameless formless you know change lives you know that the minute you start trying to label it it you're you've already missed it you know but that being said in the context of a podcast the spiritual journey and the fact that we're you know all on it and you know, you know, we can still lend to it we can still try and create little stones along the along the pond or along the river that you can hop across You know, that's that can be beneficial. So enlightenment, I think I love your definition of becoming more conscious. And I think that along with becoming conscious big part of enlightenment for for me, it has to do with discernment to me, one who is more enlightened is one who can discern at a greater capacity and ultimate discernment involves discerning between what we would classify as the real and the Unreal things that are illusory and changing, versus that which is, you know, authentic or unchanging. And there's, you know, so having that ability to discern is, you know, where enlightenment comes in another, you know, personal reflection of the enlightened men journey experience. You know, it's one of those things that, like, you'll hear about with spirituality in general where, you know, there's so much you can do and then at a certain point, it does have to do with like a fruit becoming right. You know, if you You're at a tree, in your it's a fruit tree. You can't force a piece of fruit to be right. You know, it needs to ripen. That's the process. And I think that's a really important thing for people to crock. Because, you know, the life itself is and the journey is happening for all of us. And the desire for deeper awareness and for becoming more conscious, and for the evolution of consciousness is a beautiful one. And we never want to get to the point where we're forcing it, you know, because it would be like trying to force in or ripen making a piece of fruit ripen. And we also need to respect and revere a natural unfolding and process that's always happening. And so, but you know, I'm trying to think I was likely give people a visualization. So imagine that you're a meditator. A lot of people meditate. And feel the benefits of meditation. And meditation I think has a lot of stock behind it where people would, would would say it can lead to deeper states of awareness and deeper states of peace, peace of mind. And this last word that I would say, which is also connected to the term enlightenment, and that term is clarity. So, if you're, if you're sitting in meditation and the the experience of enlightenment, I would say, it would be like falling, you know, it would be like the actual process of sitting to meditate or doing a meditation, whatever kind it is, whether it's devotional chanting cure time, or a walking meditation, or a sitting meditation of breath, awareness, mindfulness, there's so many different practices. That is your that's the action that you're taking and there's a process to it, but then the effects of that scientific technique of that tool of that technology. Spirituality is a really big word. And it's overused a lot now, but to me, what it translates to is it would be a technology. Spirituality is about spiritual technologies, and they're all these different techniques. And so you're using that technology and the effects of that process, create more like what I would say would be like falling. And by falling, I mean, if you imagine falling through the sky, you know, your, your arms are flailing and, you know, you're just there's nothing holding you anywhere. And at a certain point, though, you surrender to the experience. So at a certain point, you're like, Oh, you know, cuz you're probably flailing because you're going through a little fear or you're entering an unknown space. And it might be pleasant, it might be unpleasant, but when you realize that, it doesn't seem like you're going to crash, like the fear is usually based on hitting the ground or, you know, like, I'm gonna hit something I'm gonna win, you're like wait this then the falling can be coming. Really beautiful and fun, because you're like, Oh, I'm free. I'm having this experience of, you know, I'm just, I'm just here and I'm floating and it's but I'm free. I'm no longer caught in that fear. And, and then you it's like is if are your whole life be you thought you were seeing everything clearly. But then because everything was blurry. So you've been looking you've been living your entire life and things are blurry but they don't appear blurry to you because that's all you've ever seen and think if everything was blurry, and you went about your whole life and everybody else sort of seemed to be existing and operating in this same paradigm of blurriness, and then suddenly like it says, In the third eye, the pin Neo and pituitary gland, you know, there's a rack focus and you can feel it in your spine, and suddenly through that point of awareness or perception, your focus is You know, it's it's like that a lens would be the only way I can describe it that it rocks. And you see everything from this new perspective of clarity. And again, the power of that is really difficult to describe because Have you thought everything was clear, I thought everything was clear, I thought I was seeing things the way they kind of are. But now I have this amazing deeper sense of clarity and, and in that clarity, all these things that note didn't make sense before they make sense and it creates this deep sense of ease and to me that, that lens to what we The other thing you were talking about when you said bliss, you know, bliss and yoga is a very particular state of awareness or state of consciousness. It's usually referred to as somebody and but there's somebody states, and then there's, you know, states that are not somebody, but you're equally as aware. So that's just more what state of consciousness Are you in if you have that awareness and clarity and discernment within you, you can be living from that place of what people refer to as enlightenment. And not be like, you know, a bliss Bunny, you know, I mean, so there's lots of bliss bunny. I mean, you know, a bliss bunny would be somebody that has cultivated, you know, awareness to the point where they, they're just, you know, they have this. Nothing, nothing is affecting them in a way that they're just, you know, they're very joyous, like, they're blissed out. So if you have that, there is an aspect of this. And it usually happens for most people at the beginning, and it can stay for a while. And it did this blissed out state where I mean, there's all these examples where like, you know, there's a yogi meditating on next to a river and he didn't know that it was the river of the Emperor. He was actually in the, you know, glands are the area that was like the Emperor's castle, and the guards come up and there you know, hey, you After move, you're not allowed to be on the show. He doesn't respond. He's in this blissed out state of awareness. And they're saying if he gets to the point almost like where they're in our modern day, it would be like with a police officer with a gun, like, put your hands up or I will shoot, you know, so they raised the sword and they're like, if you don't move, we're going to, you know, we're going to use the sword, Yogi doesn't move at all. And they take the sword and they chopped the guy's arm off like the meditator, the meditator, the Yogi's arm off, blood is pouring out, like profusely spurting out of the Yogi's arm or where his arm was. And yet his he's still sitting in complete meditation. He says, There's no effect at all. It's other and staying there. He doesn't scream, he doesn't react. So at that point, they realize that this is obviously you know, this is somebody who's like a master of some kind. And they, you know, I mean, there's different versions of the story. There's one story version where they just, you know, they give him his arm back and he puts it on and It like merges completely. So that's a little bit more like, I guess you could say, the miraculous. And there's more pragmatic versions where, you know, they tend to his arm, but it's more about the reckoning, that the yogi is then invited to the castle and the king, you know, boughs and reverence and says, you know, whatever you've got going on where you teach me where you help me in the hands of helping the king in that way in that capacity. But the main point is this level of awareness, this level of bliss, that and I think it's more significant in our modern day, it's not about having your arm chopped off and not being affected. It's about somebody coming in and saying, hey, you're a fraud, or you're only doing this for the money or whatever it is, or you know, trying to break that person's bliss or, you know, whatever or or just life itself, you know, like there's a car accident or this person finds out that they have a disease or their physical body is not in alignment or whatever. It can be anything but Normally, or just any stresses of life, when, when you're in that state of awareness, you know, it's almost like a Teflon coat. Where or gore tex jacket with rain, you know, if you don't have that gore tex on the rain is going to soak your clothing and you're going to then be your you know, you can sort of be in that place where you're like, I love the rain. And then after a while, you're like, I'm really wet, and I'm wearing a cotton shirt and it's become soggy, and your body starts to get, you know, wrinkled, and your then you start to shiver and you got hypothermia. And there's a person you know, and that even though they're quote unquote, spiritual, they're freezing and they're actually not doing well. And at a certain point, they're like, I gotta get inside. And they might even come inside and be like, Oh, man, the weather sucks, you know, I hate that I was just trying to meditate and it just was pouring. Enlightenment, you know, at a degree or level would be a gore tex jacket, but if there's nothing physical, but you have that vortex so the rain is still hitting you. That's the part about it afterwards. It's not like there's no Rain, chop wood carry water, rain is still going to fall. But instead of you getting soaked, it just beads up and rolls off of you. And interesting. And so yeah, you kind of go about life without anything affecting you in a way that would be detrimental to you living and being on your mission. Now, I would comment that there are these states of consciousness if you want to get into the depths of yoga, there is a state unary corpus MRT, which is a blissful state, but it's a conscious state too. So it's like your inner experience is one of complete bliss, no matter what. But you're out in the world. You could be driving, you could be giving a lecture. You could be wherever you are, but and nobody would ever necessarily know it. But you do have this deep seated bliss experience happening all the time. And I think there are a lot of great masters and Yogi's that are playing that game right now. On the outer in the outer sense. You might Got ever recognize it though or know it. And then there's also the other side of it where they might not be in every Copa somebody, but they're still enlightened, you know. So they do have that deep seated awareness. But they're just in enough the world and they've got a mission in the world. And so you know, I mean, that's like, you know, that would be an example where somebody might say, oh, you're supposed to be this great master, right. But I saw you get upset I saw inside your boardroom, when the doors were all closed, I saw you almost like yelling at your staff, right at your group, the people that run your ashram or your organization, right. And if you were this great Yogi, then that wouldn't happen. But I mean, at that level, it gets so kind of complicated, and it really has more to do with, do you have eyes of seeing, because it could be that there's truth to that it could be that this person is, you know, out there in the world, and they're, they're amazing and doing great things, but that their level of awareness is here, but it's not way up here. And so they they do have You know, there are all these different levels of awareness or it could be that it appears that appears to be, quote unquote bad. But there's nothing bad about it because it's just effective leadership. I mean, any great leader, I think you would recognize because of all your experience in the companies that you built, would say, there's a time for yelling, there's a night for being a Harper, you know, not tenderness, not soft love. And I realized that I needed this staff to be effective, we're, we're trying to up up level or scale up, and we've only got 12 months to do it, and there and I need to really let these people know and get get into them. So that's not like, you know, again, that doesn't mean somebody who's not doesn't isn't a yogi or doesn't have a high level of awareness. It's just that in that moment, that's how they're teaching or that's how they're trying to be effective.

CK LIN 1:09:46
You know, it's interesting, you say that one of the highest performing leaders that I know and he also happens to be one of the wisest people that I know, I know, thousands and thousands of people and he's only 27. And then from Our conversations as he shared with me, he, according to him, his his point of view and that he is very much aware of everything that he does everything he does accounts from a place of effectiveness, the outcome He's going for. And to your point, yelling is a tool that he's very much aware of what he's doing in us is not necessarily that he was upset that he was using this tool as a way to to be effective as an effective leader.

Yeah, I mean, in my personal life, I think thatyou know, I would say that I, I struggled a lot, I would even maybe say I struggled tremendously over a 20 year period in my entertainment career as a as a film and television, entertainment, you know, writer, producer, director, actor, you know, I was sort of a multi hyphen trying to make my way in that career. And I think that I definitely would would have been served better if I understood that lesson, because Part of my personality was always wanting to be liked. I wanted to be liked I want and I also wanted to be like, I guess you could almost say more than I wanted to be friendly and happy and kind, and loving and nice and generous and all these things at the cost of being effective, you know, at the cost of not recognizing that, you know, there's certain people certain situations, certain outcomes that if you understand that, then there's not one strategy. It's not one level way. I mean, and again, it just depends on who you are and what your mission is, what your Dharma is, what your path is. Somebody like Mahatma Gandhi, part of his his in his life, when he said, My life is my lesson or my teaching, my life. My life itself is my teaching. And so for him, not raising his voice, being disciplined, exhibiting non violence, you know, All of that was was was his teaching. So for him, it really did it was like that it was about not losing your temper going through an entire experience to be able to exhibit this way of being so that everybody else can model after it. But he's a pretty unique individual. So for a lot of other people, right? Not everyone. Yeah, billions of people want candy. Yes, exactly. For a lot of us, I think it's important to, you know, to just recognize what am I trying to accomplish here? What's the best way what's the means at which I can accomplish it successfully, you know, and then that being said, there's just a larger thing that I feel like it's you going back to another thing you were talking about, about a thriving community and and what makes ours work. And I feel like again, I don't want to try to keep coming back to Bernie man, but I feel like it's a it's a symbiotic thing between mystic and burning in itself, which is and I think it would be great if it was adopted in the world at large which is do your thing, live your life be radically self expressed, you know, basically do whatever you want that makes you happy, that makes you feel good that that can, you know is effective for you. But there's one line in the sand, which is as long as it's not at the detriment of others, as long as it's not hurting other people's experience. So if you want to walk along the road and whistle, by all means do that. But if if you're in a small, little specific space that says meditation happening inside the space, and please, you know, honor silence, that would not be a place where you'd be like, Hey, I just want to be free and whistle, you know, like, there's a sort of that agreement that in that space, they're trying to honor silence or you know, and again, like or a larger sense you can do whatever you want in life. We have all this amazing free choice, which is part of what is probably The greatest and most specific aspect that makes humanity and human life different than all these other forms of life is that we have free choice. That's the greatest gift and blessing that we've been given. You know, we, even in terms of spirituality, you know, we're born and you can either recognize the miracle, and you can love the divine or you can ignore the divine, you know, that's your choice. And I feel like that's kind of the journey that we're all on is you, you, if you've been at it long enough, you recognize when you honor the mysterious and the miraculous and in life itself, and you're just you have these experiences where you're just amazed at life, then it sort of cultivates you like the going full circle to what we talked at the beginning the reaction to that You know, what is the response to that? I feel like the inherent response to that experience is wanting to serve, you know, it's just want to surface. You know, this reminds me of something else I was thinking about recently, which is that expression, it's far get better to give than to receive. And I was thinking how like, that's only partially is it? Is it better? Well, this is a great thing to chat about, because what I got recently was that it it's a patents, it's, that's the answer is it depends. It will, that statement is coming from a place of understanding, giving and receiving. So if, if you like if you're somebody who's in a place where you really, you know, really would benefit from receiving, you know, and you're where you would love to receive, then receiving is definitely better than giving. But the moniker the cliche, it's far better to give than to receive is coming from a place of like, if you're Life is full. If you have this experience of life where you feel full, full of energy, full of love, full of enthusiasm, full of passion, just full, then you're sort of your life is overflowing. And then you're in a place where the only thing that inherently makes sense is to give. If you if you were a cup and your cup was running over, then what would you want to do what you want that water, whatever it is that elixxir to just be randomly spilling out and going nowhere, we're worried that if you are in the experience of being the cup, you would want to be like, Hey, I'm overflowing. So take some of this elixir and you would want to give that elixxir to everybody else. That's the natural outcome of that experience. And so from that experience, it's far better to give than to receive that because you're there. You don't need to receive any more if you're already full. But if you're not full Then in your in your experience, then it is better to receive them to get. So that would be my take on it.

CK LIN 1:17:07
What are some of your personal practices as a way to straddle living this spiritual life in this physical realm?

I have a particular kriya that I practice every day. I think that that would be that would be a you know a yogi or Korea Yogi. And you know, I would say it's less important for me to share what my Korea is or what my practices because in yoga, there's a certain you receive initiations, you go through a process to receive technologies, practices, and part of it is sort of honoring it and not the dissemination of that technology is actually really important. I mean, I think I would, I would honestly put it at the level of like a nuclear bomb? Well, I mean, well, yeah, in a real sense, if I was talking in a room with scientists, and this very thing came up with like Einstein, and Oppenheimer and all those great scientists at the time when they were working on nuclear fission and fusion, you know, the significance of building the bomb and what it represented and what it could do. And there were scientists that were, you know, saying, we need this and you know, where we're at in the world, it's very important. And we, you know, we have to cultivate this. And there were other scientists that were saying, We're not like kind of, again, going full circle to the beginning of our talk, when I was talking about what stage of evolution and consciousness is our culture or society are we as humanity, and there were scientists, and I think Einstein included, that were saying on sadly, we're not mature enough, we're not ready to harness that kind of energy. Because while we're intelligent enough and capable enough of accomplishing it, our humanity our spirituality, our capacity, Our awareness is not evolved enough to handle it responsibly. And so they were like I am, so I'm not going to lend my talents to that project, because, you know, because I don't feel like it. And if it was used destructively, it you know, he could have the equal power and effect but not in a capacity that we want. So, to me, that's what spiritual technologies are, if they're authentic, and you know, it's gonna, it doesn't matter whether you're a Buddha, or Buddhist or a yogi, or, you know, shaolin master, or, you know, a Sufi, there's all these different I love that all the religions and all the different spiritual paths, like they are all spokes on a wheel, they all lead to the same place. So and they all have this element of themselves that is mystical. That is mysticism, which is really to me mysticism is more technology based. It's, I mean, somebody might be surprised to hear that because they were like, Oh, I thought it was the You don't understand it. But there are technologies that are effective doesn't mean you understand how they work or understand everything, but there they work, you know, they're effective. And so but even even today, we still don't quite understand how the electricity works. But yet, you know, we flip on a switch. It's that's what we want the light, right? We want the light, we don't really care about that. We do know how to create a light bulb and how to wire things. And when the light goes on, we're kind of like great, you know, people, people, I haven't seen any issue in the last hundred plus years or since we've been enjoying electricity that people are like, I refuse to use the light until I fully understand it, you know? So that's actually a great thing that you mentioned, because I feel like that, to me is what Yoga is all about. It's not philosophy based. Its its effectiveness based, you know if it works for you, and if you you have a direct experience and that is a healthy experience and beneficial experience, then keep doing it if it doesn't, and it's not having any effect and why would you do it? And when you speak of yoga, do you speak of just the asanas or do you actually spoke last week? Yeah, no, I'm talking about like yoga. In its classical yoga, classical Indian yoga yoga refers to your which is union, between individual consciousness and universal consciousness, merging of, you know what we call kind of Mind, Body spirit, you know, that experience and anything that does that and everything is yoga. So, even within even within the kind of term yoga, there's Raja Yoga, which are the eight limbs of yoga, and the asanas are one practice or Hatha Yoga is really where Austin has come from hot. I mean, you know, it's the sun and the moon and the elements of our physical bodies and how they relate to the sun in the moon, and These particular postures were originally cultivated so that people could meditate deeply and go into these other limbs or other aspects of yoga. It's just it's kind of humorous that the asanas are the thing that you know have been really most effective like especially in the Western world and a lot of the world outside of India is that people just think of yoga as asanas because you know, they see a yoga studio and they know about doing the asanas and and the asanas are really wonderful powerful practice, but I think that it would be like, again, it's the thing I said before it would be like a magic trick where without the mystery, like you know, for yoga to be empowered to be really what as powerful as it can be. You really benefit from knowing the whole enchilada, even if you're doing a simple Asana, understanding that it's not an exercise. It's a spiritual process. That's the one thing that I would say if nothing else, don't Go to another yoga class Don't ever do any form of yoga, whether it's proper Yama, breathing, meditation, Asana, physical practice, at the very, very least, just have enough reverence for that technology that you understand that it is a spiritual process. And when you engage in that spiritual process, be open to what happens. And I think you know, to just see it as a fit. If you want physical exercise, go to the gym, get on a Stairmaster get on a treadmill, play tennis, go surfing, there's or actually Surfing is spiritual. I mean, they're all spiritual. But if you want to exercise you can do a lot, a lot of things you can do for physical great exercise. So for more effectiveness for more effective, because it depends on what outcome you want. So when you first asked me, they're like, you know, I have a practice that I do every day and I think for the sake of the podcast, what I would want to share is it's less about that particular practice or Korea because that's mine and everywhere. 7 billion of There's going to be 7 billion different varieties of practices. And they're going to be 7 billion unique practices that are perfect for each individual. So my practice wouldn't be ideal for everybody else because they're them and they've got, but there is tremendous power and potential in having a practice. So that's what I would say is, you know, in yoga, it's called sadhana and translation of the term sadhana would be a tool. You know, sadhana is a tool that you use to, you know, reach the destination to get where you're going. It's a technology that's used to, you know, create the yoga to create that experience of oneness and connection to the divine. And yeah, and so, there's also it's also translates or another big part of a sadhana though is it means discipline. And in yoga, like with Yogi's, we often just joke about it and say it's my spiritual Listen, instead of discipline because it's like you always want to remind yourself that you want that experience to be blissful. Even if it's a discipline, the discipline is about doing it every day. For me, I can share a story in 1997. I was taking I was studying with guru mer sing, and he's a direct disciple of Yogi budget on the serious thing sob who brought Kundalini Yoga to the west. And we were in this, you know, Kundalini Yoga teaching. And at the end of the class, he basically said,we're going to do this, we're going to do Korea, and, and then we did, we did the Korea and he said, great, you know, so, in Kundalini Yoga there, you can do an 11 day practice, which is really great. 11 Day practice means you do it for 11 consecutive days without ever missing a day. You do it very devotional Lee and you're fully committed to it. And you explore and experience what are the benefits? What are the effects of doing this for 11 days, something magical, something mystical some is usually some form of noticeable, discernible transformation that occurs in 11 days. So we could spend all time all the time going into why is 11 days but there's something special that happens when you reach that 11 day mark. And then when you succeed in that, what often happens is you go back to class and you ask your teacher and you say, I did it, I did 11 days, like what's next? What's my, I want it I want to go further. You know, I want the next thing and so then there's a 30 day practice. And that's, you know, it's doing anything that that's conscious for 30 days, you know, even just brushing your teeth or you name it like if it's not, you know, doing something consciously specifically for 30 days without ever missing a day is not easy, especially if you have to dedicate time energy to it and it's a yoga practice and, and like I said, in these kind of disciplines if you miss a day, you know, you can't skip it, you can do 29 days if you missed that next day, you start all over again as part of the journey. But um, and then there's so there's 30 days now the reason that significant is 30 days, one of the things that I can share is that it's the length of time necessary to begin to break habits. So if you have a habit that you're not that you feel is no longer serving you in life, and you and you have a particular practice or create to break that habit which that which exists and yoga, then you know, when you hit that 30 day mark, they say like that that pattern is now broken, you know, so you can you're kind of freed you're no longer restricted by it and you can begin to really free yourself from and then so then people say I did 30 days I first I did 11 now it's a year later I did my first 30 day sadhana and and then In Kundalini yoga in particular, then there is a next step. And the next step is 90 days is three months to do a practice, every single day with, you know, like I said, with devotion, and this deep commitment. And the reason 90 days there's, there's so much tied to all of these, but I'm just sharing the one benefit so that you know, so the one benefit about 90 day practice, or sadhana is again, if it's a particular Korea that you're learning, there's a particular Korea that allows you to create a new pattern, or what we call in our society habit. So, if a habit can be really powerful, like a habit could be positive thinking. So the breaking of a habit could be I no longer want to smoke cigarettes, or I no longer want to, you know, berate myself in my own mind, you know, well, and then there's, there's the creation of a new habit. I'm going to be kind to myself, I'm going to look at myself in the mirror and see my own beauty. These are you know, me To create that pattern, you know, can totally transform your life, you know, if you actually created as a new habit, because how often do we look in the mirror, we look in the mirror a lot. And if you're subconsciously looking in the mirror, and thinking negatively towards yourself, not being loving, not being kind, these are all silent things, but that you're reaffirming every day. So that's like I always say people think of habits like as these big, big things if it was just this little thing that your intention was, anytime my eyes, look into my own eyes, and I see this temple, this body in my reflection, I will be loving and compassionate and kind to build that habit, you know, is a is a life changer. And that you can accomplish that with a particular Korea in 90 days. So that's like, you know, to me, that's that was learning these things was incentive. I'm like, yeah, I'm on Sign me up. Even if I'm traveling, even if I'm flying and going across borders. I mean, I've done my sadhana. You know? Anywhere everywhere and anywhere, airport, I mean airplane bathrooms, when they're knocking on the door, you know what's going on in that, you know, cuz I'm like, I'm crossing international timeframes and I'm realizing I have to do my son right now. Because otherwise it'll be tomorrow you know i doing I said I would do it every day. And so then wrapping this whole story up the next phase, if you've accomplished a 90 day sadhana and you have a specific teacher, and you're on this journey, you know, what's next, what's after 90 days? Well, there's a huge leap, there's no, you know, oh, then you do it for four months or six months. The next leap is 1000 day, sadhana. So that's a challenge is and 1000 day sadhana is the purpose of 1000 day sadhana is to master something. So if you want to become a master of a particular Korea of a particular practice or technology, then you need to do it for 1000 days. And you know, I hesitate to say Share anymore because I want everybody to do it for themselves. But what I can say because, you know, you asked about my personal experience when I was doing my thousand day practice and so you did it. Yeah. So he taught us. So in this class, he did this Korea, and it was wonderful, powerful and profound and transformative. And he said, he told us all of this sort of effects and you know, that this practice had and he said, just so you know, you just did day one, for anybody who's up for it. If you did 1000 day, sadhana, your thousandth day of this Korea would be December 31 1999. So you'd be starting the new millennium, mastering this. And that was might for me personally, that was my my first thousand days sadhana and, but But what happens is the there Something that they don't tell you or at least I wasn't told about the thousand day sadhana. And really what the thousand day sadhana is all about is just teaching you the value of sadhana, itself, the actual gist of the tool of having a tool or a technology and I forget where but somewhere in say the seven hundreds, you know when you're when I'm more than two years around two years into a practice every day. And just as a side note, my wife is always joking because she says her sadhana is having to watch me do my son every day. She said, that's my side is having to put up with you and have to observe you having to do this spiritual thing every day, without ever missing a day. But somewhere in the seven hundreds, I had this huge awakening. And the awakening was like it was I was just laughing and laughing. I couldn't stop laughing that day because I said, Oh, now I understand the purpose of 1000 day sadhana and the purpose is that if it's working If it's effective, you act, you see how your life is totally different because of it. And in that experience, you realize, why would I ever stop that this practice itself has transcended time and daily activity and that you get to the stage where you're like, this is a blessing. This is such a gift, and it gives me this, this blessing and this experience every day. So why would I you don't get to 1000 days and stop and look up, done? been there done that? No, it's the opposite. It's that you've committed to the practice so deeply, that now you're living the life of a yogi that now you're living the life where practice is a part of your life and even in enlightenment, and even in the experience of that discernment and awareness and clarity. You still continue it often. Because even if you don't need it, you would want to do it just to be a model for others, just so others can see. Here she is in that state of awareness. Still practices and still, you know, is doing that. So. So that's what I would say is, you know, somebody said, What's my practice I would say I have, I have a sadhana. And I have a lot of practices that are wonderful. And, and I do them daily, you know and and, and the other thing is this element of self actualization. So, here we are talking on this podcast, which is really exciting, I get to look into CK his eyes and learn so much more about him. I get to actually say a lot of things that makes sense to me. And then when he talks back to me, I'm like, wow, they're actually on some level making sense to him in his responses, and he's sharing his stories and his experience and that self actualization is a big part of my current life, in the sense that there's no objective for me, I'm not creating an objective for this particular experience, like, well, I'm going to do the podcast because Maybe if I do the podcast, you know, there's, there's no, after this, there's just this podcast right now, if anything, I go the opposite direction. And I say, imagine that this is the last podcast and the only podcast I ever get to do. So I'm going to enjoy it to its fullest. I'm going to recognize its its power. And I'm going to try as much as I can to share as much as I can in it, because this is it. This is all there is. And maybe there'll be another one, maybe there won't, but if there's not, I've done what I could to express myself. Thanks for sharing your story.

CK LIN 1:35:41
Why don't we bring back to Burning Man? One last question. And I got this question from Joon Yoon, one of the guests from the podcast who said share with us. Burning Man from your eyes. From your from your real landscape. what about it? It's so captivating that you will continue to go back even after 21 years.

Yeah, we've touched we've actually really touched on a lot of it. I mean, in little pieces and parts, I mean, I would put I really honestly would classify it in that category of the more I say that the more I'm devaluing it, because it's because it's magical because it's mysterious because it's, there's so much to it that I can't really describe but I can I can try and like I said once again I can try and throw some pebbles along the stream so that people can hop along them and hopefully end up their experience it for themselves. For me, I mean, through my eyes. It's it's life itself, but it's it's a it's a clarification of life and it's the kind of the way that I love to live. I feel like inevitably there's there's elements to life, or conventions. I guess you could say that There's conventions that we honor that we sort of operate with in our in society and culture. And unfortunately, in, in a certain sense, they're compromising, you know that we compromise one another in these agreements, you know, I'm going to look a certain way, I'm going to act as act a certain way, I'm going to behave a certain way, because that's the context of how we operate in our culture in our society. And the question is, are those agreements and are those behaviors and choices? serving our highest good, are they serving us living in the best, healthiest, most harmonious, most invigorating, most inspiring ways. And what I've found is what we like to call in my camp, the grand playa, which is the world at large, you know, society culture, as opposed to the playa being Burning Man. A lot of Burning Man calls the grand plan or they call it the default world. But I don't like that definition because default world makes it seem like this sub sector like like a lesser than, you know, there's a separation, there's separation, and it's like, oh, now I've got to go back to the default world where, you know, I don't get to be like this and where everything's different. And while there's a certain truth that and recognition to what they're referring to, we're trying to model the grand prize by saying, hey, what it's about is not just doing this here for a week, but really bringing this back as much as we can influencing and inspiring and transforming our culture and societies. So that all that great, juicy magic that happens at Burning Man is happening all the time. And I really believe that that was the mission of Larry Harvey, you know, especially towards the end, you know, when he realized that Burning Man itself was thriving, and there were these regional burns and burns happening. around the world and that people were realizing it's not just an event and it's not just a festival it's a way of life it's a way of looking at life it's a way of living. And so we're trying to kind of keep that going. That being said, the Burning Man festival if you're asking me about like that thing that happens once a year in the Black Rock desert of Nevada you know, and and i'm sure in in smaller incarnations around the globe. To me, it's like the greatest party possible. Like the greatest party you could imagine, happening for a week and so you know, if somebody gave you an invite and was like, This literally is the world's greatest party, would you want to go or would you not want to go and and because it's temporal, there's a certain magic to Burning Man because that particular version of it or what happens in that its temporal, it's like this is happening. It's only for this period of time. All these people coming together, the same itself is, is only temporarily built a desert. And then it turns into Black Rock City and then at the end it is back to the desert. So that whole thing is a reflection and honoring of like, I feel like society and culture like we like to think that it will be around forever but it isn't like all the buildings and you know, a lot of great masters and Yogi's are always saying, you know, the world is just fine, you know, earth, it's going to be just fine. It's not about, you know, it's how we treat it and our relationship with it and how we prosper or how we thrive, like our descendants and our ancestors and the connection of that and trying to think generations ahead like for humanity. Yeah, that is something to be deeply concerned about. But the earth as its own thing, you know, is going to thrive probably much better without humans, at least the way we're currently operating. And so, you know, cities pop up, if you if you're a fan or a student of world history. You see the undulations of cultures and societies and what they were doing and, you know, they come they go they disappear. There's the ancient history of the earth that has barely been explored, you know, and other civilizations in the cosmos which has barely been explored, there's all these elements of life that we haven't currently acknowledged because we still seem to be obsessed with thinking we're the smartest, most intelligent, you know, and, and needing to have certain paradigms of ours, like, this has to be this, you know, I think we would evolve so much faster and more beautifully. If we could just start from a place of we don't know everything. We know a lot. We know certain things, which is amazing. And it's helping us but we don't know everything. And if everybody just said, Oh, yeah, we don't know everything. Let's explore the evolution of humanity. We go a lot faster and it'd be really exciting. I mean, it is happening. It's just you know, it's happening in due time in perfect time. But the specifics of Burning Man like what is it like when you talk About the magic, I think it is. It's a city that's built in a community that's, that's built by art by participants, who are artists and creators and thought leaders and healers and musicians. And just and everything else you can imagine, you know, all different walks of life. But I feel like the the themes that bring everybody together are, you know, collaboration, participation, the principles, radical free expression, can leave no trace, which means, you know, we leave the places we are cleaner and more beautiful than when we found them. You know, get a gift in culture. You know, that's something for everybody. There's so much for people to learn about because most of us don't get to experience that gifting culture. To me, that's a gift that I get to go somewhere once a year, where it really is a gifting culture where we we've figured out a way even if it's only temporary You put your wallet away, you don't need money, you don't have money that's not about money. And yet you get to thrive. If I actually want a foot massage or a back rub, or I want to go to a yoga class, or I want to go to a lecture, or I want to get a tour of the world's greatest Art Museum, or I want to ride my bike or borrow a bike or get a ride in a huge art vehicle, like whatever we do, we do all these amazing things, and there's no monetary value because everybody is gifting what they have. And it's a good example like if you need anything, it's like the universe provides and I really have experienced that deeply over 20 years if I need a water or water appears if I need shelter. Even if I'm in the middle of the desert, somehow, I get shelter, whether it's a vehicle that ends up randomly pulling up or I'm in a dust storm, and there's nothing for a mile and yet suddenly through the dust I see a small little wooden pyramid with a sign that says says you know come inside and inside is nothing but a sign that says you know you are now here so it might not be there's nothing to it except in that moment it gives me shelter so you know the one of my favorite one of my favorite art installations which was it Burning Man a few years ago was like way out on the deep fire which is basically like open desert you know, I was I was walking and I just saw like a pole in the ground and I knew it wasn't natural because it's desert you know? So I could I could just barely see it it was way out and I was like, What is that pole? What is that you know? And I go and I go and I get closer and and and I finally and it drew me to it you know, because I problems I was moving further and further from the temple from the man from the city. I was basically going towards the fence or the edge of Burning Man, you know, wherever you go, you got to turn back and go all the way but this poll is drawing me to it like I was like, Is it an art project? Is it a piece of content destruction that just somebody was doing something and left it. And I finally get up to the pole. And the closer I get I realized it's cut almost like a city like I was in a city, it's got one of those flyers on it with little where the bottom is things that have been cut, you know, so like, you know, if you see in here in the city, and somebody says babysitting or gardening or you know, and here's their number, you can peel that off at the bottom. So I saw that the pole is just a pole, but it's got one of those stuck to it. And again, I'm thinking is that part of that what that pole is? Did somebody just combined stick that on? And when I finally get up to the flyer, it's it's a picture of Lionel Richie. And at the top of it it says hello in big letters, and all the little pieces of paper at the bottom that are cut where the phone number should go. They all say is it me you're looking for and it's like it was just so random and yet so holy. Various and I was laughing so much and there was nobody out there. But me to appreciate this and I'm thinking this artists like yes you got me It worked like this through me and all the way out here. And it you know, I don't know there's just something totally I feel like Burning Man as a celebration of novelty and to me that was there was such novelty in that you know and so and that's just like one tiny, tiny little reference if you talk to anybody who goes to Burning Man, they're going to have 1000 of these stories because you enter this space where life becomes a huge adventure you're reminded like, Oh, this is an adventure I'm on and it's fun and whatever and and yet the community is so loving that I'm that I found there is so loving and supportive. If I'm going through a tough time somebody's like, Okay, do you Is it okay with you? Can I give you a hug and I'm like, and then you're getting a real hug from somebody that you don't know. And it's not just a hug, like, oh, pat you on the back, you know, have a nice day. It's like somebody is like, you know, you're sitting there and you're almost in that uncomfortable moment where you're like, I don't know you. So thanks for the hug, but I should stop. They don't stop. And they hope that this happened to me last year, and I was suddenly uncomfortable myself because I'm a pretty open person. And I love hugs. But it was the depth of the hug. I felt like suddenly it transcended a hug. And I felt like it was somebody that I knew really deeply or somebody in my family or like, like it was that kind of dog. And it just almost brought me to tears because I just I really felt that the purpose of a hug, which is somebody embracing you, somebody letting you know, and reassuring you whatever you're going through, I love you, I care about you, I value you, and whatever love I have inside me, I'm totally going to give it to you. And that's the way I'm going to support you right now. And so it's a very emotional thing. To have that experience with somebody that you don't know. randomly, you know, it's it can be transformative, and then we separate and I find out the person says His name was something like, you know, or his name was like, you know, I'm the ultimate hugger, you know? And, and so again, I was sort of like, oh, how bizarre that I was actually in a sensitive place going through something. And I really needed a hug right there. And that's the person that came up to me wasn't just a random thing. It was that was that person's art. That was their contribution to Burning Man was that they hug people and teach people, it's okay, this is what a real hug is. And it's okay to do that. Now. I recognize my my kids make fun of me, I'm probably I'm a hippie, you know, I love to hug trees. And, you know, I'm a peace, love, whatever kind of guy so my particular examples are going to be you know, given my narrative is going to be articulated or painted with my perspective, but Burning Man is filled with anarchy. You know, it's filled with the opposite side to Part of the reason I've loved going back every year is that I learned to appreciate and value people that have completely opposite perspectives and, and how to love them and understand them better by not extras, like exercising them or by not alienating them, but by seeing by being in a context in a community that welcomes, you know, diverse points of views and appreciating all of that. So, I would just, you know, when I say it's the biggest party on the planet, I'm not talking about drugs. I'm not talking about alcohol. I'm not talking about dancing, per se, or all of the things that we might associate with party and although sure that's definitely happening. I'm talking about the larger version or expression of party which is celebration, like if we could go about life and enjoy it as a celebration, the ups, the downs, the good, the bad, you know, the creativity, the novelty, the spirituality, the community. It's all like, it's like a popcorn machine and the popcorn the week of Bernie man is just popping We're all kernels. And you know, when you're in the right environment, which and all the kernels are popping, you're going to pop and I would even go so far as to say that even if you're that random, one of like, you know, 3000 kernels, you're one of the four that don't pop. That's your perfect experience. And it's okay, like, you're still gonna have a great bird, you know, so most people are popping, but even if you don't pop, it's like your experiences, like, wow, I was in 500 degrees of heat. And everybody else had that experience where they became popcorn, and I'm still a colonel. So I hope that those sort of stories and analogies lend to people. Something special is definitely happening out there. It's become a lot more regulated. You know, it's very, very different than it used to be. There's another side to it, too. I don't mean to make it sound utopian. But it's like to me there's something that whenever I'm at Burning Man And I've tried to do this with mystic to there, you know, I try and make it so that there's a moment, at least one where I have this feeling like I wouldn't rather be anywhere else on the planet. And I love my family so much. And I don't get to always, you know, go with my whole family. And it takes so it's going to take something really, really exceptionally special for me to leave, you know, my family to be there. And I but I'm with my larger family or my, you know, chosen family and my tribe and everything. And that's another great opportunity is it's a reunion to be with other people I love. Thank you, Jonathan. It was a beautiful place to leave it. Cosmic cowboy, one of the founders of Camp mystic.

CK LIN 1:51:42
Jonathan, you've been amazing. Thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom and really, really appreciate how you look at the world.

Aho! thank you so much for having me. And thank you for doing the podcast. And, you know, you're bringing all this wonderful stuff into the world. I appreciate it.

CK LIN 1:52:01
Alright listeners. Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions about what we discussed anything that needs to be answered, please go to noblewarrior.com/group. We'll be happy to answer those questions there. Take care now. Bye