Award-winning director of films, music videos, social content, and commercial branded content, Logan Stone, shared the mechanics of the hero's journey for storytelling and personal discoveries. Topics we covered: Joseph Campell and the history of the...
Award-winning director of films, music videos, social content, and commercial branded content, Logan Stone, shared the mechanics of the hero's journey for storytelling and personal discoveries.
Topics we covered:
the history of the hero's journey chemists from this guy, Joseph Campbell, who was a mythologist. He studied all the different stories.
He studied a lot of stories from throughout history and these different pockets of the world. And he found that these different stories at a, at a point in time when these pockets of civilization had no way to talk to each other, that they told the same story. Maybe the heroes were different in the skin , the settings would, would change, but the general structure of how the hero would go through the journey of the pitfalls, the valleys peaks, and valleys. That it was the same. It was basically everybody it's it revealed that humans tell the same story and it's that we call that the hero's journey.
So the significance of the hero's journey, as it relates to, an average listener, somebody who's listening to this right now is that consider that you're in the middle of your own hero's journey
and that the hero's journey is also a fractal tool. So you can look at it in terms of the hero's journey of your whole life.
You can think about your hero's journey of your week that you're having this week. And when you look, there's the old adage of like seek and you shall find right. If you look for the pattern, it helps.
the hero is the hero because the hero slays the dragon at the end. Right? So when you're listening, same thing seek, and you shall find if you listen for, let's say that you're in the middle of a low point in your life at the moment.
Right. You just got fired from your job, or you're in the middle of some turmoil about what's going on in the middle of, in the, in the world today. Right? Consider that you're in the low point of your story right now. And the low point is where the hero gets the tools really like, they have the rebirth moment where they shed the old skin and they be reborn with the tools and the knowhow and the certainty to slay the dragon and that they do slay that dragon at the end of the story.
So it's really helpful to. Be able to diagram and map out where you were, a year ago in your hero's journey or yesterday and your hero's journey. And it's helpful to, orient yourself as it relates to, where are you going next? And what's, what's on the road ahead. And how do you prepare for it?
yeah. I love that. So a friend of mine coined a term recently, he said that we are personal development nerds. I listened. I was like, Hmm. Is that accurate? So regardless, whatever the label is, I think if you're interested in really. Curating a life of what's possible curating in exploration of what's possible.
To me, hero's journey. Not only is a great tool for any professional storytellers like you, but as a great tool, personal discovery for personal development, right?
So as you said so beautifully earlier, how can we use a hero's journey as a framework, as a lens to look at it, what's occurring, life, however, big harvest, small.
Right in their whole life or just the, just a week or just a day, every day we're going through this hero's journey.
So I love the hero's journey as a frame. And I also love archetypes because for me, archetypes or frameworks like this is such an easy way to help us shift perspectives.
And help us look at things newly such that we can, explore different blind spots. So, like you are, I love the heroes, right?
Yeah. Yeah. It makes me think, I think humans, we're always looking for other ways to know ourselves. And so it's, it's helpful too. I find that the hero's journey is just another way to know ourselves. Right? Another way to know, like what, what, what, how has my past created who I am up to this moment? Right.
And like, yeah. It's like what you said about self-development nerds, because I relate to that record and wrote that.
Yeah. The reason why we're friends.
Right. So, so with that said, I also want to, to not so much caution, but I wanted to, to put a caveat on these tools by no means these are deterministic tools.
These are just tools to try on different perspective blank, where am I at? And, in my heels journey as a possibility, right? As a different way to look at it.
And then, then from that space, then you can say, okay, turn left and turn right. Or what should I listen for kind of a thing rather than deterministic, like, Hey, I'm at this point on my story, I should just look for this other thing, according to the hero's journey formula
the hero's journey always starts with just like the familiar world. Right. It's just, it's the status quo. It's it's just the way things are. Right. And then this inciting incident happens. And it's, it usually comes in the form of, it basically, it leads into this call to adventure.
Something happens that adds some greater awareness to the hero, right? Maybe it's they see an opportunity in a market is opening up, right? So at the same time with that comes a call to adventure that, what actually I've got a connection with. So, and so I could enter this market right now, almost immediately after the call to adventure.
There's the refusal of the call. And there's a, there's a hesitation there. The hesitation could take one minute. It could be years that this hesitation goes on, right. Where they just don't want this fully step into what they want to say expensive. then after that, there's the meeting with the mentor and the meeting with the mentor, it's this kind of supernatural aid, right?
It's just a little nudge or a little, they gained some kind of other information or it truly can be supernatural in the form of, If we're relating it to everyday stuff, maybe they keep seeing a certain billboard or a message keeps popping up and it's, it's just in the front of their mind where they're, maybe they get, they get a surprise check or someone from their past reaches out with a new opportunity or something like that.
And it's just like, it's the synchronistic kind of things that just push the hero just a little bit farther into really looking into it. Right. After the supernatural aid, there's the crossing the threshold and crossing the threshold literally looks like, like, it's like, it's no return right after you start the hero, it could be making the investment, right.
It could be getting, buying the equipment. It could be buying the office space. It could be making the huge higher than whatever the investment is. Once you sign on the dotted line, you can't unsign you can't, you can't get your investment back. You're going. So then at that point, right after that then becomes the road of trials.
And the road of trials is really like where the hero learns, what they learn, like who are their allies in the space, who are their enemies in the space competition. If it's in business, right. Who are my competitors? Ideally they've done their research before that they know the competition before they put the deposit down.
Right. But this is really where they have like the face to face interaction with. they they're, they're acquainted in one way or another with it. It's like the, the rules and the laws of this new world they've entered it into. Then at that point there becomes the midpoint, right. And the midpoint is the false victory.
So they get something, you get something along the road, but maybe it's not, it's not as satisfying. It's like, it's the point where the story can completely turn on a dime. And they realized, I actually got into the market for this reason, or actually wants to be an artist to do this. And after doing enough and struggling up through the road of trials enough, it actually, I actually need to pivot.
And I'm seeing that this is actually an opportunity this way. So that's like the pivot point right now at this point. Now this is when we enter the low point and the low point is I, the pivot they've had, they've had that false victory a little bit, the unsatisfying win. And, the low point is really the point where it's the most struggle.
It's the most doubt, right? It's the, why did I do this in the first place? I made a huge mistake. I'm out all this time and now all this money, what have I done? Right. And it's the point of it's like, it's all hope is a loss, right. I might as well give up. Right. And so this is the make or break point. This is the make or break point in the hero's journey.
I, it's, it's it basically, it prompts the apopstasis where the hero or the company. Sheds their old skin. They have the opportunity to shed their old identity. They die a physical death, right. They die. They maybe they were attached to a way of doing things or they were attached to a certain brand of music that they wanted to make that, it made totally made sense on paper, but just they, they let go of that old way, that old commitment or the way they thought that it had to be done.
And then they move forward, reborn and spirit, and almost every single time it has to do with like, just allowing yourself. It's like, you didn't even realize that there was this much easier method over this way. Right? It's like almost a hundred percent of the time, the hero or the company or the artist realizes that it's actually, this was kind of staring me in the face all along.
And it's, there's a reason why it's a cliche in storytelling. Right. It's the reason why every romcom it's kind of like. Oh, well, you were, you, your heart got broken by the person you wanted to go for, but there was this, your true love was right in front of you the whole time. Right? It's it's like, it's a cliche for a reason, but again, it's a human story. We can all relate that story. So after they have that awareness, then that becomes now it's the, they have the rebirth, but it'd be goes into the climax now. And they realize that after they've been reading born, they have every tool. They have every method that they need to slay that dragon.
And, Lay on the ship, basically, and it's, it's the, it's the point of the highest stakes, the climax, the ultimate boon, they win. It's the, it's the massive success. But again, you can't have the massive success without going through the low point.
Yeah. why don't we actually do this? What are some of the lowest points of your life if you don't mind sharing. And then what is the wisdom that you have earned throughout and use the hero's journey as a way to illustrate what you were referring to?
I think that would be really, really helpful.
Yeah. So I would say, one of the hardest points of my life was my first year of college. My first year of college, I, I went to a business school in Dallas, Texas, and I realized really quickly, it was a very big Greek school and it was probably the point where I was like the most depressed in my life.
because I had given up on anything artistic and I was just want to do business. Right. So that sense, that would be the low point. Right. And the low point of the story, just for anybody who's listening can relate to it. The low point is like the dark night of the soul.
Right. It's all hope is lost. It's, this is the part, if you're writing a story or, if you were writing yourself as the hero in this story, this is the part where like you're broken, right? Like it's, this should be the hardest point of most suffering. and so what happens as a result of that low point is that the hero, the forces, the hero to get real, to take a really critical look at what has put them in this situation.
Right. How have they been being up to this point that has them in all this suffering to begin with, and then it begins what's called apostasis. And the apostasisis when the hero dies a physical death to be reborn in spirit. Right. So if I'm relating it to my story, I went through this, this Greek, the hazing and all this stuff.
And like, I just realized like, this was going to be, the rest of my life was, giving up on anything creative. that was really the thing that, that did it the most for me. And so I had to take the critical lens, like to look at myself to say what had me in this position to begin with. And then I actually ended up transferring school.
Right. And so I, I killed off a physical version of Logan Stone as this, frat boy college kid partier. Right. Killed off that version of Logan Stone. I was really good at playing that version, but that version had to die in order for me to take a step and go move. I literally moved across the country to Illinois, Chicago, Illinois, and started taking film school classes, downtown Chicago.
And so I was reborn in spirit. I had this new invigoration. I had a complete change of scenery I had, but I completely shed that old skin, the old Logan completely. done. So does that kind of, is that kind of point to what you're saying? Yeah, for sure.
For sure. and what would you say is the wisdom that your earned from going through that, apostasis process that you've gone through? Yeah, I would say the wisdom Ireland was really,
so I remember watching a speech by, by Jim Carey. And Jim Carrey says, he talks about watching his dad. His dad was the funniest person he knew. and he said that he gave up on his dreams of being a comedian to sell insurance, to provide for his family. And he eventually got fired. His dad got fired from that job.
And the takeaway, I think this was a commencement speech that Jim Carrey was giving the takeaway of the commencement speech was you can get fired for doing stuff that you hate. You might as well do something that you love.
Hmm. And so it was really, I literally watched that video. I remember watching that video in my dorm room to this day.
And that was the moment where I was like, okay, well, that's a good point. I am not enrolled in what I'm up to right now. So something's got to give and, That identity is frat boy, Logan was killed in that moment.
Mm. And I asked that question because when that mindset gets shifted, the action to transfer, it became a lot easier, right?
Oh God. Yeah. Shift transfer, transfer. And the thought of letting the old Logan die and then the, and then creating a new life by transferring. It's a Herculean task.
So, so let me ask you those questions. So as, as someone who was very masterful at these mechanics of storytelling, right. how to, look at the beats of a story, the hero's journey really well in this subjective experience of being you living a human life.
Is it easier? It's kind of a leading question, but I'm just curious to know easier.
Yeah. I mean, I'd say it is a little bit leading, but I mean, I think like you're pointing to something that I'll say the reason why I find that it's the reason why I find that life is, is easy is because man, I didn't even realize that I have the belief that my life is easy.
but really it comes from like the hero, the hero, man. I appreciate your question. Cause I'm in a state right now where like I'm kind of struck by epiphany. So I'm like kind of processing this live right now.
but yeah, I think it's really a matter of. it's like, it's your decision away? I I'd like to think that deep down, everybody kind of knows the steps to take. Like, you kind of know it in here. And my experience up to this point is, times in my life where I'm most dissatisfied with myself or my life or moments when I'm blocking that when I'm blocking the intuitive knowledge of where to go next. Right. And really what it is is it's holding on, it's holding onto like an identity or holding onto, this egoic, like, how, what a CK think about me. What do I think about what CK thinks about me? And it's like, it's in the process of letting go of that. And it's, when the dust settles, when left to our own devices, it's kind of like, Yeah. that's the North star, as far as what you're, what you're meant to be doing in the world. So it's like, I guess your question was, why do I think that it's easier to live life or something to that point, right? I'll let you I'll allow you to restate it here. If that's, if I'm off track of what you're going, what you're asking.
Yeah. in my mind. It's, it's a function of awareness. Having more awareness using the hero's journey, these types of frameworks. Is it an easier life? That's basically the core of my question is, yeah.
Hearing the question newly. I don't know that it's easier. I actually don't know that it's easier, because it's, it's still difficult.
It's difficult. The difficult part is in the letting go of the old identity. It's the apopstatis, right? It's if anything, it's almost like, actually it might be more difficult because I know that the low points coming up around the corner and I know what it's going to require of me, So it's like, yeah, it might be more difficult, but the, the payoff is more assured.
So if I can weather the storm and get through it and do the hard looking at myself. Then yeah victories is a matter of time. Yeah.
Yeah. I was actually talking to a client yesterday and he asked me, why does it need to be so hard? And I thought about it, And then I realized that. It's the ego. It's the mind that's making it hard. If you just let it go. It actually is very simple. So in other words, how, if I ask you to go get a glass of water from your kitchen, it's like, okay, sure. Of course, no problem. But if I started making a big deal out of it saying like, could you please and go get a glass of water?
And you're like, why are you making it so weird? Yeah, it's kinda like that internal activation energy it's as difficult as we make it to be, but obviously it's, it's it's one of those things that's simple to say, but when you do it, it, you still inevitably go through that internal hero's journey, the struggles grappling all of that to achieve whatever you needed to achieve
since you're so well attuned to the hero's journey mechanics. When you look at, let's say someone who hire you for the music video, your role is to help them pull out the story that they want to tell, right?
Yeah. Some of the processes or the mechanics, you have been able to say, Hey let me work with this person to help them tell their story based on this framework. Is can you share with us any examples?
Yeah. Yeah. So if we're creating, so in the music video analogy that you used, for me, it's helpful to start at the end, right? We start at the end, we start at the end, even if it's,
Okay. Well, if we're just strictly talking about music video, start at like, where do you, how do you want the audience to be. on an emotional level after they finished watching it, right.
There's a thing called peak end theory, which was basically says that we human beings measure our experience, but the, we say we judge our experiences based on their peaks and how they end.
And so the example that I could use would be like a rollercoaster, right? If you've ever written a roller coaster, it's like, it takes the average time that you spend in the rollercoaster experiences, you might spend two hours waiting in line for the rollercoaster. And then the rollercoaster itself is like 30 seconds long, but it is such an exhilarating end and peak that we say, that's amazing. Let's get back in line. Let's do it again. Right.
So we build it around. How do we want that climax on that end to leave our audience with. and then reverse engineer it.
Right. What has to happen for us to earn that satisfying know at the end, if you, if we're talking about it, not in a music video way, but just from a personal diagnostic, right.
It's easy to look at how, what has happened in the past, but again, like the wake doesn't steer the ship. Right.
So it would be the same thing with goal setting. It's like, Standing in the future fulfilled, we've already slayed the dragon. What had, had happened? What did we have to do in the past to have slay that dragon in that way?
And it's useful, sometimes you might draw a blank. I already mentioned the low point, for example, the low point it's, it's easy when you have these archetypal like milestones on the journey and you can slot in action steps or. you can even reasonably expect like a little bit of a setback if you want.
And too, in a way that's not going to like throw you off your game while you're in your business
after outlining all those steps of the hero's journey, the whoever I'm speaking to, can reasonably slop themselves in. Okay. I haven't really been at that maker. I haven't given up what there is to give up yet or speaking to the fractal aspect of it. They might've said, well, I gave something up, a year ago, but there's still more, again, it's it's there's hero's journey stacked on hero's journey.
It's a cycle. So. So, so I guess what, what I'm asking here. Cause mechanically, someone can look at the template and say, all right, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom let's force forced, square pack in general, wrong hole. Let's make this way. Right. I could do that, but let's say someone who is at a high level a competitor let's call a UFC fighter. Right. and I think, what I'm talking about. So, so for them, they have an image, they have to maintain that ego of Supreme confidence. But at the same time, they also need to reveal their low points or self doubt their internal world to use it.
Should I assume that you can show that to dramatic, rollercoaster right within how do you get them to share their truth, like, versus just put on some, sugarcoating thing that they think that we're wanting to see. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Well, it's really in it's like do you want the win, right.
If you're unable to share that, that vulnerable low point or the truth about the pain of the, of, maybe the part that someone would be more unwilling to reveal. You're not going to have the apopstatis. you have to have the awareness and be able to, it's like, if they're unwilling to get rid of that, then they haven't truly let go of that the egoic identity that's, that's keeping them from slaying the dragon. So, part of the work is in just reminding them of that and guiding them to,
Great. So how do you deal with that egoic resistance is one of them. How do you enroll them into this vision of like, Hey, on the other side is actually not only good for you commercially, but it's really good for you personally. what I mean? Yeah. You'd share that. How do you enroll them into that?
I point to other examples and I lead first, I go there first, now it's. It's easy to like, I look at like Robert Downey jr. Is an example that I like to use a lot. Right. Robert Downey jr. At a certain point was, was an addict and alcoholic and everything. And for all intents and purposes, his life was in the gutter.
But we know Robert Downey jr. Today, As being Ironman, right. This made a hundred million dollars on one movie type of thing. Right. And so it's, it's in, I'll, I'll play videos of him just being very candid about here's where I was and when watching him own it, it's, it's easy to, when you create that space that's where the juice is. it's easy to lead someone there when you see how actually how safe and how necessary it is to go to that place. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. let's see, I think it was Shakespeare that said the world's a stage and everyone's an actor.
Right. So if I can look at it through that lens and there are certain actors. Not that I'm aware of. And I may not like there political leanings or how they act or behave, but there's a deeper level of, admiration to how free they are just be their full ego, self, or full spiritual self. And just like, they're able to just really own all of it.
And that to me, is very inspiring. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. The reminder, what I'm hearing in that is it's, it's the reminder that like, they're just playing a role up to this point and that their block is their attachment to the role that they're playing their current role.
to me, that's the power of stories because it shifts your internal narrative. So who you are, if you, one of the things that we talk a lot about on this podcast is the nature of consciousness.
If you think about it, there's like four different layers of consciousness per se.
one is perception is what I think you think of me, right?
Another one is identity, or persona or personalities, what I want you to think of me?
Another one would be ego, ego, right? What I think of me.
And then you have the pure consciousness, pure awareness.
I'm the, I'm the awareness as watching as experiencing this entire. Objective reality through the lenses of my consciousness. Right?
So a beautiful narrative, like transformative experience to me is able to shift more and more of the perception, personality, layers, then get access to that pure consciousness level.
That's me, it's the power of a really great story.
Yes. Yeah. What I'm hearing you say in that is like it's in the low point is when we make contacts with that pure consciousness state. Right. And we shed the physical, we shed the ego. We die, like in my story. Right. that physical, that egoic Logan had to die off.
and it was only when I had that, if I would call it, the communion with the soul, right. Reconnected to. what I was actually really excited about doing for the rest of my life.
So yeah. A good story and a good hero's journey will have those moments where it's, a good story has, has it's a radical shift, right?
We want to see the hero change hero that doesn't change, or shift between those different, those different States. it's just not satisfying. Right.
So with that said. So on the, on the line, the activation energy to take the action that you want to take for this internal shift, it was insurmountable to transfer to another college because you had this identity of the fraternity. The frat boy, as you said right now, when you were able to let that go and you're able to then just very quickly shift your energy to actually to transfer.
And I am underlining this point because. A lot of times we hear Sage advice. Like, just be happy. You just do things that makes you happy or you follow your passion.
And these type of almost cliche lessons is so easy to say, but in the moment of indecision in the moment in that crossroad, To let your old identities die or let them go. It's a very difficult internal thing that you had to do. So I love stories.
Yeah. It's terrifying. It's you'll know like why you haven't gone through the apostasis if you haven't made a terrifying decision,
And so that's kind of a helpful barometer there to know, if you're applying this to your own personal life, It's gotta be scary,
in my younger years, I didn't really care for stories so much. Cause I thought, I'm a scientific person. Just give me the facts. But what I didn't know was I was in tune it biographical stories of famous scientists or engineers. I was very inspired by that. I just didn't see them as stories. I just saw them as facts, right.
This person did this. This person did that. And then as I get more and more in, older. In my life and is starting doing this podcast. I still didn't see myself as a storyteller. I just tell, like, Hey, I'm interested in to know this person's, life story. I'm just pulling the jams out of this person and said, yeah, that makes you a storyteller.
I was like, Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, it's a preamble to this question in a day and age where more and more content I made every single day, it's becoming really challenging to stand out in a noise. Right. And knowing that story is such a ingrained it's in, it's in our brain human beings, love stories.
I see storytelling is one of the key ability to, for anything that you do, whether it be. On a day to day, trying to find a mate as a, you need to be a good storyteller, whether it's, you are starting a company, a purpose driven organization, whether it be you starting a movement, right.
The BLM movement, as an example, a required storytelling. what do you, what do you say to that? Yeah, I think story is story is everywhere. The power of story, when you initially just said a minute ago that, when you were a kid, you didn't, you didn't like story, I think that it's, maybe you were relating to it, not as stories.
Right. But, in an increasingly noisy world story story is like the beacon in the dark. what I mean? It's like, everybody's just trying to shout they're there. They're prerogative there, but a well told story can change the world, and, and it's, it's a, it's a noble pursuit to know your own story and know how to tell that story so that you can make, leave your own impact and in our society and communities and families out there.
let's move on to asking the question. I think I made a comment at some point in passing a, you made a point of underlining date. I said, I'm not that interesting of a character, right? You actually gave me a loving challenge. He said, I would advise you to relook at that. Right. So say more about that.
Cause I would assume. And at that point, what I share with you is if you have any level of humility, Yeah. probably most people think that they're not that interesting to look at. So as a director, trying to get the most out of someone that you're doing documentary with, how do you, well, one having to set aside, I believe that there are not that interesting.
why don't we start there?
Yeah. Yeah. it's in a documentary perspective, you really just want them to just be themselves. Right. Cause the second that they try to do, they try to perform for the camera or do anything like that, that it's just inauthentic, like it's what it is regardless of your job or your role or anything like that.
It's, that's the authentic humans like to watch humans being humans. Right. We love the human experience.
So it's more about just the amount that they, you can, yeah, it's really, it's interesting. it's getting out of your own way again. Like what a theme on this, on this. On this podcast so far, but it's really like to which they can get out of their own way and just be themselves relates to more it's more compelling content.
I see. So it's not even interesting or not interesting, just be you cause bias. I'm not that interesting that you're diminishing your light. You're diminishing your authentic self by saying I'm more interesting than what I'm actually in now. You're just artificially boosting then the performance or how you react to certain things. Is that accurate?
In my personal, I mean, I've never been someone for reality TV. There is something to be said about like, bright lights, like we're still, we still have the, the monkey brain at the end of the day that says that someone being loud or someone, the stimuli is going to attract more eyeballs.
Right. But from a, from an interesting, like story perspective, like truly everybody has a story and in my opinion, it's about. It's like, it's the job of the filmmaker or the whoever's framing, what we're watching, maybe not all of it, the hero, for example, somebody doing the authentic thing might just sit around and watch TV.
Right. But it's, what are you framing it against? What are you juxtaposing that with?
So it is in that sense that if the storyteller's role or if you're applying this to yourself, it's it's in fact it would be your job to, how am I framing my behavior in a way that it's the backdrop, right?
Yeah. So, so I was actually on a call with James Altucher he's a, a very popular author investor entrepreneur. And he said that he just recently finished filming a documentary about choosing yourself. Right? One of the things that, one of the books that he wrote, and a lot of it is of shooting him, doing his everyday stuff.
Right. And I asked him the question of. when you shoot this video, who do you have in mind and so forth? He said, well, I'm just doing it.
And he let us slip that. I don't know how interesting it is for the audience. I hope it is, so that's how he was thinking about. So as a filmmaker, do you then just basically have that faith and trust that whatever footage you gather about this subject at the end, you can actually make it interesting.
Yeah, you're trying to make it interesting in the creative process. Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's
obviously you want to make it interesting while you're capturing the footage, but what I'm hearing you say in your question is, or do you want to make it interesting while you're filming or do you want to make it interesting while you're editing? Yes.
So it's like, The more you're in your head about, it's kind of like, it's a self fulfilling prophecy a little bit to believe that it's not interesting.
it's the same thing as your glass of water example, you used a minute ago, right? Where if your belief that is that it's going to be weird for you to ask for water from your host, it's going to come across from that, the host that like, this is a weird request. Right? Right.
So you're, you're creating that. It's not interesting by believing that you're not interesting. . So if you can just let go, let go of that old belief, the, let that die off, have your own apopstasis moment and you just document and you just be authentic, what's going to happen, especially like no one becomes a star overnight.
Right. So the more that you release content from that authentic place, right. Or if you're a business, right? The more communication you can put out from an authentic place, the more that the audience is going to be able to build a relationship with you and authentic relationship. So they say, I know exactly who CK Lin is.
I'm tuning in for CK. Right? Cause I know him cause I've seen, I get his office authenticity from the videos or the podcasts or, or whatever. I, I get who he is. He's not putting on any airs for me.
let me ask you this question. Since you've interacted with a lot of different celebrities or a very accomplished people, let's just say musicians or fighters , right?
Yeah. Let's talk about the concept X factor, right? I would define it as something that's intangible. That's in the ethers. that's a manifestation and expression of that superconsciousness that we talked about, right. Is as if they're able to channel something that's beyond the cerebral and the body, the mind is, the, the, in an actually touch that divine expression.
And that's what I would call like a X factor. How would you define it? X factor?
I like that analogy. what I'm hearing in that definition is that it's kind of like reserved for a select chosen few, I think like it is, yeah. May be different depending on industry, for example, a really talented singer with a certain kind of vocal cord makeup is just going to have a leg up over somebody who their vocal cord makeup isn't as good perhaps.
Right. But in the sense of putting out content and just being who you are in public, I think an X factor it's really the work is, I think that it's a limiting belief to say that, so, and so is just a clearer channel. Oh. Than I am. I think it's, I think it's truly in the letting go it's in the letting go of that as a belief and yeah.
it's like when you have that belief that so-and-so's just a better channel that person's just endowed with that divine gift that they're just there to have the X factor. They've got it. Right. That you're actually cutting off your own perfect channel stream, Yeah. So it's about the work to do.
It's it's funny. I hesitate to even call it work. It can be work, but it's like it's it's in the letting go. It's the, it's the completely, just like. Letting go that it needs to be any kind of thing. It's like kids, right? Like I would argue that every single child age, up to age two, three or something is an X factor.
Like they've got the X factor and certain point that X factor is pulled from them, or they give it away because for whatever reason, right? We kind of Rob children of their X factor. There, there, we close off that stream by. Putting our own stories about why we're not X factors into their heads, but it's, I think it's just, it's an innate human thing,
Yeah. Bring him back to what I shared earlier about the whole onion analogy, right? The, the, superconsciousness that ego XL, the personalities and the perception, right? Yeah. These are essentially in my mind, barnacle. That's stopping your different layers that you added on because something that you added on yourself or somebody else giving you this ideas and just add it on these layers of beliefs that ultimately stops you from accessing that pure consciousness that, that infinite self that we had talked about.
so I love that you bring in the idea of, two, three years old. kids are, have no layers where they just, be who they are, I think you're right following.
So bring it back to your experience of interacting with these very, talented individuals who have honed their craft in singing and fighting and whatever. Right in as an, as an actor. Yeah.
What have you observers some of their practices perhaps to allow themselves to step out of the way of that divine self? Yeah. Yeah. The thing that strikes me as a consistent thing with, with all of them is it's like, they ha I have the experience of it's like they know exactly who they are.
Right. There's, there's a, there's a quote from a tribe in like Papa new Guinea that says that knowledge is only rumor until it lives in the muscle. Mm. And their knowledge of who they are. It's not something that they have to conjure up and like psych themselves up for anything like that. They don't have to remind themselves of it here because it lives in just their embodiment of how they're being just.
a good friend of mine that goes, he's a prominent, lead singer for a big, rock and roll band. It's captivating to watch him on stage. And he is the same person on stage as he is behind stage. If we're hanging out at a party or something, same exact same. Exactly. And it's magnetic to watch him in person because, he might tell you differently, right?
He's like, Oh, I've got all my doubts and everything just like everybody else. But what I see from him is just like, He it's man, again, like it's coming back to this theme of just like, it's just an allowance. Right. He knows who he is and he's comfortable with who he is. And he just allows himself to, just to just express exactly like it's I see him as his inner child is out to play all the time.
Right. So he has that clear stream, he's not second guessing ideas of what, what he wants to say. He's just, it's just, You just lots of flow. Yeah. I love that. Thanks for sharing that story. You're welcome. Because it brings back to you the point that we'd been making consistently in this conversation that it's as effortless or as difficult as you make it to be.
Right. You can make it effortless. Yes, of course. you're still going to experience waves of emotions and thoughts and mental images of body sensations, but the waves wash over you easier versus like, Oh my God, the waves are coming and I want it. And it's so hard. Why, why am I the, the, why me walk in at the street or whatever?
Why are people spitting up?
Oh, man. Beautiful. I appreciate this.
let's actually broaden that to the perhaps your organizational level, right?
One of the things that I also, help people with is to help organizations reinvent themselves first, by identify at what their core purpose and missions are. And, few tools that I use are stories. So share them with you and see what you think of them. So one is, I asked them to think about their favorite movies.
And, and recount their favorite movies. And, and then based on that, what about these movies are the, the core common denominators. And then that potentially is a, because you emotionally resonate with those core values. That's therefore are your core values as an individual, and then collectively as a leadership role.
And what are some of the core values that you wanted to, to, that are the common denominators amongst the leadership team and that you can then use as the core value of the organization? What do you think about that approach?
Yeah, it's what I'm hearing there is it's in the archetype, right? When someone relates to a particular story or particular hero or film or whatever, really the commonalities that they're picking there draws upon a certain archetype, right? The different hero, good types. Well, they're not here on market types, but just character archetypes or organizational archetypes, it might be Nike plays the role of the hero, right. or Godiva chocolates plays the role of the lover. Right? So depending on the organization, they're, they fit into the different archetype.
But the reason why that's significant is because each archetype has its own story, their own challenges to overcome their own strengths and weaknesses there. Right?
So like you see, it's easy to theme, like, the hero's journey and the pitfalls and the peaks and valleys and everything are going, that's going to be consistent.
But it's like the flavoring of that hero's journey is where the archetype plays into it.
Say that last sentence again, the flavoring of the journey is what the architect plays in. What do you mean by that? I like. The hero's journey itself, actual structure and the ordering of the moments going to be consistent.
But the archetype, for example, let's use the ruler as an example. Right. So the ruler just wants to create order. That's like their motto is like, just order and. Order from chaos, right? So there's like, there's the enlightened version, which we would get a good ruler.
Archetype would be like IBM . But the shadow version of that archetype is like the tyrants. Right? You can have a benevolent ruler, or you can have a tire ruler. So the story, right? Let's if we're bringing it back to the low point, now that related to the low point, the apopstasis moment is that they have, what they have to do is giveaway.
man, if I'm, if I'm creating a story off the top of my head, I would imagine that, a hero, an organization that's currently in the low point, they're going out of business or something. potentially there's something to look at. Yeah. Around, if they were. If they were imposing too strict of a rule or something.
And so they, they exhibited more of their shadow archetype either within the company or in their products that they use or their relationship to their customers could be resembling more of that shadow archetype. And so the, the room that they have, the opportunity that they have is to dissolve that old way of being and step into the higher version of that ruler archetype. Right.
So they're still going through the low point. The hero's journey is still intact, but the work that they have to do is flavor differently based on how that archetype expresses itself.
the overall structure is intact, the hero's journey. They're still going through the low point in order to reach the ultimate boon there at the end. But their story is going to be different if they have identified themselves as being a ruler versus being an Explorer . Like two different lessons to get from their individual low points.
Yeah, I got it. So it's from your perspective is the path of the hero. The journey could look like an explore. The journey could look like a benevolent King based on the archetype that they choose to integrate for their own journey.
Right. Okay, cool.
The Explorer and the ruler will both find the low point, but what they learn in their low points will be different.
Totally. Totally. Thank you. Another way. Very revealing question that I ask my clients is who are your heroes? Because there are certain internal value that they hold that would have deemed these individuals as their heroes.
If you look at all their heroes, two or three of them, very clearly you can start to see some common denominators for those people that they deem as heroes, you can call them mentors, you can call them people that you admire, whatever name they may give it. But people that this founder look up to are very revealing of what they may not even personally be aware of.
What I'll say is this, this, this type of questions are insightful because when you were a fish, right, you're swimming ocean, you can't see water. Right. So when you're in the midst of your personal stories and personal values, you can't really know why I'm doing this. I'm doing it because I like it.
So these type of questions actually takes you out of your own fishbowl. So you can actually see it from the front. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me think again, it comes back to the archetype, right?
Who their heroes are, points more to who are like, if you're. If you idolize a certain executive or something, let's say they're one of their heroes is Elon Musk.
it reveals a lot about where they're, where they might fall as an archetype, and that they really relate to the, the rebel. Right? If it's an Elan example,
Actually. Let me ask this question real quick. Is it easier to tell a nonfiction story like someone live and you try to tell their story, or is it easier to tell a fiction story where anything goes? Yeah, I think it's easier to tell a fictional story. Well, I won't even say that it's easier.
They have pros and cons, right? What's what's nice about a nonfiction story. If you're going to write, if you're making a biography biopic on someone, you don't have to invent. Story steps because it already happened. It's the film wrote itself, before you even got involved with it, however you sacrifice flexibility in where you, if you were telling me a true, authentic story, how it went down, you have the stories already written, so it's easy, but you don't, you can't, there's only so many liberties you can take with them.
Pulling different, man, you have to stick to the source material is what I'm saying. Yeah.
If you're telling a fictional story, it is a blank canvas, you can create it exactly how you see it. But with that blank canvas comes, it can be a little bit intimidating. There's a lot of, yeah. It's the paralysis through analysis.
Yeah. Yeah. Do you bring anti gravity boots from the future or do you make a dragon come out of the sky or, or the shatter into two parts? it's, it's the paralysis of having way too many options. Yeah. Right. I like that. Where you get the flexibility. Yeah. Yeah. Where anything goes.
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