July 22, 2021

125 Orpheus Black: Purpose-Driven Sexuality - Desires, Rituals, Intimacy, Spirituality

Sex is the way with which we satiate our hunger and desires and our partner's hunger and desires.

In this episode, we talk about the intersection of purpose, masculinity, and healthy sexuality with Orpheus Black, author of "The Enso: A Philosophy of Submission" and an expert in BDSM and kink education. Orpheus shares his insights on topics ranging from the difference between wants and needs, to the four quadrants of sex, to the role of sacred rituals in relationships. We also discuss the healthy and unhealthy cycle of desire and contentment, and the importance of purpose-driven sexuality. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation with Orpheus Black.

Keywords: purpose, masculinity, Orpheus Black, BDSM, kink, healthy sexuality, wants and needs, four quadrants of sex, sacred rituals, desire and contentment, purpose-driven sexuality.

We talked about...

  • 7:03 - We discuss the omnipresence of sex
  • 9:25 - Orpheus explains the distinction between wants and needs
  • 16:43 - The difference between embarrassment and shame is explored
  • 22:50 - We participate in an exercise to identify the four quadrants of sex: social indoctrination, self-expression, shadow, perception
  • 28:17 - Common blocks and fears related to sexuality are discussed
  • 32:32 - Orpheus shares his personal journey towards becoming more fearless
  • 47:18 - A discussion on how leaders can facilitate transformation
  • 70:33 - The four components of sacred rituals (space, place, time, sacrifice) and their significance in relationships are explained
  • 83:20 - We delve into the healthy and unhealthy cycle of desire and contentment
  • 92:03 - Orpheus shares his rituals for cultivating the ability to be seen and received
  • 108:58 - The importance of purpose-driven sexuality versus libido-driven sexuality is discussed

Please enjoy my conversation with Orpheus Black



Wisdom Quotes

"Sex is an energy form that permeates every aspect of our lives."

"The idea that there is a linear modality to life is ridiculous. We're a series of interconnected, interwoven areas of existence that are contingent on each other."

"Needs are the essential components of life - the things that you absolutely cannot do without. We, as human beings, require love, care, affection, compassion, tenderness, and patience in an intimate relationship. Want is optional - it's the cherry on top."

"I want from you because...' I need you to take ownership of your own need. Assign that to an individual, and then I need you to give them the why, because the why has the meaning."

"Embarrassment is an internal process that gets externalized, and shame is an external happening that gets internalized."

"Kink is any deviation from what you think is normal sexual behavior."

"Sex is the way we satiate our hunger and desires and our partner's hunger and desires."

"If we don't know what we want in that quadrant, it's usually because we've been living our lives for someone else. We're looking to satiate their desires and replace it with our own. We take from other people and bring it into that quadrant."

"Faith is the belief in the absence of trust. So faith is really important in how we build a relationship."

"A heterotopic space is a space that helps us be who we need to be in that environment. It brings us out. We may be a different person just because the space feels good."

"Ritual is important because it breeds significance into whatever it is that we're doing."



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[00:00:00] CK: My guest is obvious black Orpheus is the author of the Enzo. A philosophy of submission is being an educator of 25 years with several titles in a BDSM and kink. His work is being feature in mashable.com, Playboy Marie, Claire, and Ebony many today. Look to him as the coach of coaches when it comes to a healthy sexuality and the enlightenment, we talked about how sex is everywhere.

The difference between wants and needs the difference between embarrassment and shame. And we also did an exercise to distinguish the four quadrants. Social indoctrination your own. Self-expression your shadow and your perception. We also talked about the common blocks and fears to sexuality and his own transformation to becoming more fearless.

And if you're a leader, listen to our discussion [00:01:00] about causing transformation. We talked about the four components of sacred rituals, space, time, place, and sacrifice, and how to use them creatively to bring more significance into your relationship.

And we also had a discussion about healthy and unhealthy cycles of desire and contentment and how to avoid being hungry ghosts. We also talked about his ritual, so cultivate the capacity to be seen and to receive. And finally, we talked about purpose driven sexuality versus libido driven sexuality.

Please enjoy my conversation with Orpheus black.

[00:01:42] Orpheus: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. This is going to be wonderful. I already feel the energy.

[00:01:49] CK: So let me just start out by saying, when I asked my friends about this idea of multi-dimensional masculine, conscious [00:02:00] masculine, your name came up, you got to talk to obvious black. You got to talk to John White.

They're really excited that we are having a conversation together. So I want to drop right into this idea of sexuality is a space that's really fraught with a lot of negative charges, any misconceptions. So could you share with us Y this is your path.

How did you get into this space in the first place?

[00:02:32] Orpheus: I always, since a young person had a propensity for dealing with intimate situations, I always knew that I wanted to work in this field. There was no point in time where I, as a child, I, as teenager didn't want to do some type of work in this space.

And to me, moving into the space of king fetish, sexuality, intimacy, masculinity, it all just [00:03:00] pulled me in from many different ways. From being a performer and BDSM to doing porn, to being a sex worker, to doing phone sex, I've done every aspect of sexuality as a business up until this point.

And for me at no point in time, was it ever. It was always my calling, always my life purpose. And I've just sat back and enjoyed the experience and just let it take me in the directions that I'm needed and required.

[00:03:28] CK: So that's a very beautiful articulation to the, to that. However, I'm going to challenge you a bit on that because sexuality is a little bit like, as was saying earlier, it's fraught with like judgment and, negative perceptions and, you do what you know, and they like societal type external pressure.

So I'm, I was curious, was it as clean as the way you phrase it? Like I knew what I want to do. Doesn't matter what everyone else says, I'm just going to keep going forth. Or did you have to grapple with is this [00:04:00] my path is not my path. You know what

[00:04:01] Orpheus: I mean? To be honest, I've never, I have never had to grapple, but the people that I've been with have had to grapple with it, my being out my being available, my not unabashed shit approach to sex, sexuality, intimacy has always been there, but it has been a problem for partners, friends, business connections.

And so what I understand is that expressing yourself in any way, shape, form, or fashion is difficult. And it's going that path is going to be filled with obstacles. But as the Buddhist say, the obstacle is the best. Helping people get over their issues with my sexuality, helping people see me as an example of a person who is expressing every aspect of themselves.

100% is a part of the development, right? So every time I meet resistance in this [00:05:00] area, I realize it's not my sexuality that they're having a problem with. It is their own mirror, reflecting something that they want to have, want to be wanting to express. But for some reason, feel that they can't. So in the process of enlightening them and taking that stress off of their shoulders, and putting it on me, making it my burden, I give them freedom and space to be able to imagine themselves living in a way that's congruent with their deepest desires.

Does that make sense?

[00:05:32] CK: I'm just recalling, as you were speaking, I'm recalling back to my younger days. I didn't understand this. I came from my Chinese culture, a culture that we don't talk about. This quote unquote taboo subject, it's within the husband and wife or whatever the partners is. You just don't talk about it.

So a such giving the unfamiliarity with. I had my own preconceived notions and judgements and prejudices towards even just the topic itself, not dimension to people who are [00:06:00] working in this, whether you're a teacher or a worker, or it doesn't matter what it is. So until I have more, hopefully a little bit more mature to really look at sexuality, Hey, it's the most primal without it, the human species will not continue.

So let's talk about it the way, no more warrior. The way I talk about anything is, Hey, anything that's worth mastering, let's talk about it. So that way we can understand and discuss the nuance of it as a path to mastery, right?

[00:06:37] Orpheus: Yes, definitely. Sex is an energy form that permeates every aspect of our life.

Whether we think about it as just a way of reproducing the human species, but also there is a sexual energy that goes into creativity. There is a sexual space that goes into production. There is a sexual energy that goes into [00:07:00] reproduction. There is an energy to produce and reproduce that goes into everything.

And it all comes from expression. Your creativity comes from expression. So your sexuality comes from the expression. All of these things are interconnected. The idea that there is a lifeline or a linear modality to life is ridiculous. We're a series of interconnected, interwoven areas of existence that are contingent on each other.

And like we were saying, talking about before to me, life is a spider web where everything is interconnected. And we sit at the SIM center managing each and every area because it's all equally important. If you pull on one side of a spider web, you feel the pressure on the other side, right? You pull on the other one, it puts pressure on the other side.

And our lives are very much the same way. Sex is interconnected to every aspect of our [00:08:00] life. Does that make sense?

[00:08:02] CK: It does. And I love that you brought up the spider web metaphor because the last time we talked, you brought that up. I was like, let's really talk about that. And we had discussed is important to release pressure by maintain healthy tension because otherwise without tension collapse, correct.

And then, but with a lot of pressure, it pulls all other aspects of life into this. So I love that to part of the ethos of what you are advocating for your clients is you advocate for them to articulate who they are and what they want and what they need. Programs on the boron, two bedrooms, a clever name by the way.

I love it. But before going to the more spiritual aspect of it, I want to, I want us to talk more on the practical application while you're talking about essentially advocating for who they are, what they want and what they need. You had made a distinction between one and knee.

Can you get a load of them? Go a little bit more into that? [00:09:00] What's the difference between want and

[00:09:01] Orpheus: need? Yeah. A need is the essential components of life. The things that you absolutely cannot do without they are not our cart. They are not on the side. I equate the needs to the engine in the car. You don't go in there and see that the engine is optional.

It is required in order for it to be a thing. So we, as human beings require love, care, affection, compassion, tenderness, patience. Those are necessities that we require in an intimate relationship, right? Want is the optional. It's the extra it's the cherry on top, right? Once can be things that people choose by choice to provide for you.

And it can be a specific sexual act or a specific type of intimacy, but it can't forget. [00:10:00] The knee. What I find when I give my clients the desire diary is that people ask for their needs as if it's a want. It's do you think that you could provide me with affection? No, you're supposed to have affection.

Do you think you could be a little more patient with me? Stop asking for patients as if it's a want. It is not, you need it, right? You need healthy food to feel fed. You don't need popcorn. You don't need candy. Those are extras, right? So you can't ask for the nutritional value of a relationship. They healthy components as if it's optional.

It's not. So what I always ask people to do is this I want from you because I need you [00:11:00] to take ownership of your Lord. I need you to take to assign that to an individual, and then I need you to give them the why, because the, why has the meaning? Tell me what it means to you right now. There's an area of vulnerability in the Y, but sometimes vulnerability is necessary.

Sometimes vulnerability is appreciated. Sometimes it softens us in a way that makes us much more approachable in a person, wants to go into a place of deeper introspection to see if they can provide that for you. To me, that is absolutely important. The first part the I want is the ownership of our desires without owning our desires become sublimated.

They start sneaking out and manifesting in other ways that are not intentional, not in control. So we have to own [00:12:00] our want. And then we have to assign it to a person because there's many things that we want, but we don't want them from every one. I may want to kiss this person and not want to kiss that person.

I mean, want to be held by this individual and not held by that individual, right? Assign your wallet to an individual, make it user specific, tailor it to that individual so that they are more inclined to not only provide it for you, but to give it to you in a way that embodies them, where they can see themselves deep within the role and bring themselves to it and actually take it to a dimension that you may never have expected.

Right. That process is deeply important.

[00:12:48] CK: Yeah, I really love the practical sentence structure. I want this because now you're empowering your [00:13:00] clients or our listeners here to own their desire and give them a very actionable step that they can take on. So I have a question for you though, when you're in that subjective experience, want and need feel kind of the same.

So can you help me delineate just a little bit more about what in the subjective experience, what is the difference between want and need? Because in my mind, the way I would distinguish it is I need something just because I need it. There is no rationale behind it, per se. That's a way to help me simplify it in my brain.

So I was curious if you can help me deliver delineate the two.

[00:13:41] Orpheus: I think most people conflate the two because they're afraid that somebody is not going to want to give them what they need. You see how I use that sentence. They don't want, we're afraid that someone doesn't want to give us what we need. And so we don't ask for it right out of sheer fear.

[00:14:00] We conflate the two again, you know, you, you need, and it's very hard to hear someone reject you around something so essential to your existence, which is a need. It is essentially. To your existence, right? There's, there's no conflating that, you know, now again, we all want to want what we need and need what we want.

Okay. That's, that's a play on words, but you need water love, right? You need healthy food. You need a healthy relationship. You look at the needs, look at the quintessential nature of these things. I want candy. I want kisses. I want, you know, soda, you know, I want to go on a date. Okay. Wants needs are very different.

[00:15:00] But again, we conflate the two because we have an inherent fear that someone's not going to want to provide us with what we need.

[00:15:09] CK: Okay. So in the design journal, do you also ask them to write down one of my afraid of others judging me for my desires or needs?

[00:15:20] Orpheus: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We definitely do that. And, and for me, it's really important to get people in connected to, uh, or let's say reconnected to an external source of need.

And so I also have them look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right. So when you go into that space and you're looking at that Maslow, you can see it section almost stratified. From best and most important up to the highest. And so that can serve as a template for them to start talking about their needs.

That colonization is very important. Then we go into the sentence structure of Iowa. Then we start talking about the [00:16:00] difference between shame and embarrassment.

[00:16:05] CK: What

[00:16:05] Orpheus: is the difference? Well, I'm glad you asked. Thank you, sir. This is going to be very complicated and I have it it's it's much better when we write it out.

Okay. But the first thing to realize is that embarrassment is an internal process that gets externalized and shame is an external happening that gets internalized. So what does this mean? Let me give you an example. Embarrassment works like this. Oh my God. If they find out I would just die. If anybody know all my God feeling right.

It starts in here and it changes my behavior because I'm hiding something that I don't want you to know about, because I think if you find out you're going to have negative feelings about me

[00:16:57] CK: in embarrassment,

[00:16:59] Orpheus: that's [00:17:00] embarrassment, shame starts on the outside. Shame says, you know, if you do that, people are going to think you're this.

If you talk at speak behave in a way that is counter to your inculturation counter to your social indoctrination counter to my feelings, and you're going to assume this negative label, right? So many women experience, oh, well, if you do that, you are a, can we use language on here? Okay. You're a whore or a slut or you're this right?

And so let's say you don't do it. And when you're 15, 16, 17, but now you're 22. Now you've done it. And now you start thinking negatively about yourself and external happening internally and changes your behavior.

[00:17:58] CK: Got it. So let me see if I [00:18:00] can recap my understanding of it. Okay. Is, is, uh, uh, shame is outside in yes.

Embarrassments inside out, correct? That's the way I would articulate it, correct?

[00:18:14] Orpheus: That is correct.

[00:18:16] CK: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Now, now I can do my language now. Thank you.

[00:18:23] Orpheus: You know, Soren Kierkegaard talked about this long before anybody else, when he did labeling theory, it was an, it's a really overlooked aspect of it because when you look at people who do labeling theory, they say, no behavior, no, uh, thing is inherently wrong, right?

Where we get wrong and right. Depends on what the cultural information is, what the cultural norms are, what the religious norms are, right. They are the ones that put right and wrong onto things, acts behaviors, right? Even [00:19:00] it's up to the indoctrinated to enforce it. Right? And so they impress upon you, these societal standards and these societal norms, right?

And so that pushing that force, penetrates our psyche and can change our behavior. And we in fact become the instrument of torture onto ourselves. We are taught to punish ourselves for behavior that is not inherently wrong. Right. So once I kind of shake this idea, right, shake up the nest, we start going into this idea of what have you been told is wrong or negative or bad versus what do you believe.

Is negative, wrong or bad. Right. And so that's another part of the design, uh, desire diary that we go into.

[00:19:54] CK: Yeah. Does a lot of different rabbit holes when going to let me first affirm [00:20:00] for me. In terms of my own, uh, emotional mastery and understanding, and then the ability to put words to how is it that I feel is a learned skill.

So the more I study it, the more I know, putting the effort to understand the nuance and you know, the difference between embarrassment and shame and like, oh, thank you. Now I can be more precise into it. Right? So now I have more colors on my palette to articulate what's going on internally. So I love that you're encouraging people to develop a richer nuance in their desires and wants and needs and all that stuff.

Bravo. Awesome. Thank you but I also hear this word being used a lot kink cause he, my mind kink is something that's outside of the norm, but his behaviors are arbitrarily neutral. Why [00:21:00] do you still use that word kink? If you know, that's part of who you are. So maybe if you can help me understand and define what that word means for you.

So that way he can help understand the context about that words being used. Kink, what is the definition of kink?

[00:21:18] Orpheus: Thank you. Thank you for asking that kink is any deviation from what you think is normal sexual behavior, any deviation from what you think is normal sexual behavior. Why is that important?

Because you, at some point in time in your life developed a notion that of normalcy normality around a primal behavior. You're saying instead of expressing myself normally right in what's in line with my wants, needs and desires, there is a template that I'm supposed to play through. I'm supposed to do all the hits, right.[00:22:00]

But then right, as you start growing out of that and starting to express yourself more, you're like, okay, what's in line with my tastes, my tastes and social convention. Aren't always in line. And so then we deviate. That is a kink. It is right. And so I do this exercise. Would you like to do an exercise with me?

You would need a pencil and paper and anybody at home would have to have a pencil and paper too. Would you like to try? Let's do it. Let's do it. What I want you to do is take a pencil and paper and would the pencil draw straight down the middle of the page, north to south, and then I'd like you to do another one in half east to west.

So you'll have four quadrants in the upper left-hand corner. I want you to write down three things that you think is normal [00:23:00] sexual behavior,

a couple of minutes, and just write down as many things as you can think of, but at least three. Okay.

I wish we had the jeopardy music playing in the background, the filling that's that

[00:23:21] CK: I can go

[00:23:21] Orpheus: find it.

All right. In the upper right-hand corner. What I'd like you to do is write down what you do, what you do that is not in line with normal sexual abuse.

Right. And you don't have to read any of this out. Just be as honest as humanly possible, at least three things.

I know this is a long list for you.

All right. So in the lower left-hand corner, [00:24:00] I want you to write what you fantasize about or want to do that you are already, that you have not already done,

This is for the people at home as well.

Once you've written down what you want or want to experience again or fantasize about, I want you to write in the lower right-hand corner, why you are not engaging in this behavior. Why are you not engaging? And for those of you who can't figure out what you want, think of the reason why you have blockages around it.

What's preventing you from even dreaming about the thing that you would want to have with someone you love, enjoy respect, admire, adore, feel comfortable with[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] CK: this is enlightening. Thank you.

[00:25:02] Orpheus: Right? So now let's let's label these quadrants watch. Okay. The first one is your social indoctrination. It's the thing that you don't even question is behavior that you've been told everyone does. And that's. Right. That's your indoctrination. The next category is your self expression.

As you understand it, it's your presentation. It's what you're comfortable with saying about yourself. This is why I want to do this is what I engage in. And I'm okay with sharing. The lower left hand quadrant is your shadow is the incorporated aspects of your sexuality, of your launch or needs or desires, right?

What's more important is sex is the way with which we say shape our desires and our partner's desires. [00:26:00] Often times, if we don't know what we want in that quadrant, it's because we've been, we usually live our lives for someone else. We're looking to satiate their desires and replace it with our home. We take from other people and bring it into the space.

I want what my wife wants. I want what my husband wants. And so I don't even dream about what I want because no one's ever asked me ever said, what do you want? They didn't give you a room to dream, right? When we go into this next space, these are the perception. That we're facing that we think are impediments to what we want.

They're the excuses as to why we can't dream the excuses as to why we can't long crave hunger. And so for me, this is the main category that I work on overcoming those obstacles. And that's [00:27:00] important. That is the first step in the journey that we go into when we're working, when I'm doing this type of work.

[00:27:08] CK: Thank you for that. So let me ask you this question, cause you have a program called foam in the boardroom to the bedroom, like I said, clever, I love that. So from the people that you work with, what are some of the common barriers that you see some in common? You know, like I said, you know, I'm kind of drawing blanks here, right?

But to your point earlier, what is, what is the blockage? I don't know. So what, what are, give us some examples of those common themes that you've seen, actually, the high-performers the alpha, whatever you call them, right? The people who was really, really good and a domain in their life, athletes or business or whatever.

And over here, they have a little bit of a blockage. What are some of the common

[00:27:53] Orpheus: blockage? The most? The one that I get the most. It doesn't matter, like fear [00:28:00] in search fear. It doesn't matter what it is. They feel that that fear is something to be feared. And it's you it's things like, well, I don't want to be looked at as abnormal.

I don't want to be misjudged. I don't, I'm scared that someone's going to think that I am a freak, a pervert, a deviant, right? Um, or that, this is a fear that this is my desires will change the relationship that I'm having with my wife or my husband, or, and this is mostly with regards to female bodied individuals, a fear that they will be locked into that position forever in perpetuity.

It won't be something that just happens in the bedroom. It will be taken outside of and used against them or relegates them to a very specific position. So those fear is the main one. And again, as you know, fear is not to be fear. Um, the next one is just a lack of experience and exposure. Most people can't [00:29:00] see themselves.

We're having seen representation of people like them doing the thing that they want to do. And so they. Right. A lot of people in king didn't really see people of color doing what it is that we do in like say BDSM or fetish until I started going on camera and doing it and doing it at clubs and doing it environment.

I used to get email all the time and said, I didn't know that other people did this. And so, or people like me did this, right. Or I didn't know men did this. Right. I didn't know women did this. They didn't see representation. So they didn't know that this was available to them. So they need to have the exposure, you know, and usually represented by somebody who looks like them in order to see themselves in it, to be able to imagine themselves in that space.

So that's another one. And I would say the third one, so we don't go too deep into it. [00:30:00] The third one is just shame. People have been told by their religions, by their families. So-and-so's forth that you shouldn't do this. Right. And for me again, the way shame works is we are going to label you as a subject matter and or activity and void out everything that you are.

If you label negate me, that's what Soren Kierkegaard says. And when you label a person as a whore, harlot, slut, In other negative words, I'm not going to say you reduce them to an act. You dehumanize them in that way. You're saying you are a sexual activity, nevermind that your mother or your father, or your brother, or your valor Victorian, or all these other things, we're going to reduce you to an act.

Right? And so people do not want to be reduced. And so some of that reduces some of the play that they can do some of the exploration that they [00:31:00] can do. It hinders them, right? Because even in a relationship where you're man and wife or you're committed fiance, or you've been in a really long-term relationship, we still fear this idea that our partner may shameless sleep next to will start treating me differently, acting differently, because I want this type of play is because I want this type of engagement because it takes me into a different place, a different head space where it gets me in contact with my primal.

Right. And so that's a very important thing too. So those are the top three that I would say,

[00:31:39] CK: thank you for that. So let me just recap real quick. Number one is fear. Number two is unfamiliarity of someone that looks like me. Number three was shame, shame. Thank you for that. And, um, Yeah.

One of my recent epiphany is [00:32:00] this, if you want to be more anti-fragile, if you want to be more courageous, if you want to be more fearless, the barrier to that is your relationship to embarrassment machine. Yes. The more you can lean into that, the more fearless, the more courageous you shall be. I end outside.

That's the, kind of the, what I'm hearing, what I'm deducing with. How, what do you think you agree, disagree?

[00:32:33] Orpheus: What do you, I do agree 100%. And this plays out not only in the bedroom, but in the boardroom as well, because how many people are labeled a hard-ass or a bitch or, uh, you know, so difficult to work with because they expressed themselves because they had an opinion that was differing from the culture, uh, that they're dealing with.

So for me, we all want to [00:33:00] try and create our presentation, right? Your presentation is literally what you are comfortable with presenting of yourself in that environment. That's your presentation. When you deviate from your presentation, you can be labeled negatively now, right? When your presentation is not congruent with the area that you're working with, the thoughts, the ideas, the culture.

You are now a deviant because you've got in a way you're not toeing the party line. And it happens in the bedroom and it happens in the board room. It happens in the office. It happens in the home, right? It happens in our political sphere. It happens in our social sphere, right? Deviation exists in every aspect of our life.

And while your expression is unique to you, way we will punish issue is very rehearsed. The way punish you [00:34:00] is very uniform. It's very swift and it's so focused that you will pick it up. Yeah. You won't even know. And then one day that punishment will emerge for a very specific behavior. They'll remind you to shut up totally party line, be exactly where you need to be exactly who we need you to be.

So me shame in this way is very important to understand, well, we can't let it limit ourselves. It's the people who deviate from the norm that really inspire a country that leads us into the future. That keeps us going. It's the people who see, what's not there and take the time to not only express it, but make it build it created.

Define it. That really takes us into that new space. We can't just be seven of nine. We have to be the unique.

[00:34:56] CK: Hmm. I love that. I mean, that's [00:35:00] one of the reason why I created this podcast in the first place. I want to talk to the people in the fringes, right? I want to talk to people who is really passionate, obsess about really interesting kinks or interesting things that nobody else know about to me, my, uh, relationship with normal in kink or fringe interest is totally shifted or res Chinese.

Right? You toe the party line. Like you follow the mission right now. I'm more about innovation. So I'm interested in like, oh, what are you doing? What's going on over there? Let me, let me

[00:35:39] Orpheus: figure it out.

[00:35:42] CK: No, uh, yes. So thank you for that. You also had said a line. I really, really, like you say, kink is rooted in faith, not trust.

That is correct. So I wrote that down. So say a little bit more about that line.

[00:35:54] Orpheus: Yeah. One of the mistakes is that faith that, um, let me try this [00:36:00] again. One of the mistakes that people make is that, uh, kink is rooted in trust.

It's not, it's really in faith. Faith is the belief in the absence of trust. Belief in the absence of proof. And for me, it's important because I don't know that you're not going to hurt me. I don't know that you're not going to violate my trust. I don't know that you're going to lie to me when I, when we first meet, I know nothing by want to believe I have faith.

I want to invest in you. I want this to work. It's literally the investment that we make in the relationship. Not necessarily in others, but in the real thing, what we're creating. Right? And so we have to look into those spaces because it's an often overlooked aspect. Our want to make this work, my want to date this person, I want to believe she's beautiful on the inside and on the outside.[00:37:00]

I want to believe that she has integrity. I want to believe I have no proof. Right? So faith is really important to how we build a relationship. We experienced the same thing when we have new business partners or when we take on new investors, right. You have to go into it with a certain amount of faith.

Okay. So then what is trust? Trust is my level of comfort with an established pattern of behavior. Okay. I need consistency in order to feel comfortable and the more comfortable I feel. The more open I become, right. We can say more, do more, be more because my environment is safe and consistent, right? So for me, that's a developed over a period of time.

It's not about earning it. It's about [00:38:00] showing up being unabashedly you, because I can depend on you being that when we meet most people, what we're meeting is their representative. We're not,

[00:38:11] CK: can you pause for one second? Because the way you just said in my mind is earning it, but you just said it's not about earning it.

So it doesn't compute for me. Can you say that one more time? Herding is an

[00:38:23] Orpheus: exchange.

Exactly. It's actually at all right. You just be you I'm around you. And the more you are you and I can see the consistency. I can see the, you know, summer, spring, fall, summer, spring, fall, summer, spring, fall, the more comfortable I can become, but what we do most of the time, when we go out on, let's say a first date, we're being our best selves, knowing that this is not maintainable.

This is not sustainable. You can't be that person all the time. You're not going to, that's not going to last. It's going to [00:39:00] be inconsistent. You have to be you when you should. Right. When you go, I used to be a salesman. And the one thing that I knew is to not put on your best face, be you make mistakes. If you stutter stutter, if you stammer stammer, put that in there.

If they buy from you, right. They're buying from you. They like you, not the representative, right. It's important to make sure that you make these correlations between you being on your best behavior and you behaving. Hmm.

[00:39:41] CK: Yeah, no, this is really great. You might just very do it quick detour about your own journey to be this thought leader.

Like how did you leaning to who you are leaning to your own quote, unquote weaknesses and transmute that into your strength, leaning [00:40:00] to your interests, your passion in sexuality, like just do a little detour about how did you own your voice. Was there any inflection point did own your voice, um, Orpheus black.

This is who I am. God dammit. And I'm gonna walk this way.

[00:40:20] Orpheus: That is, that is, I've never been asked that question before. Um, so I'm going to do the best to express it because I don't have a rehearsed line before.

Um, there's many different voices. And I had to own all of them. You know, there's the business voice in who you are and how you show up. And there's the sexual intimate voice and the relationship voice. And I had to own it. There is the familial working with your kids, you know, that voice and owning it. So I had to go across the board and do it, but I had the benefit of being able to be a salesman.[00:41:00]

Being a salesman is psychology. One-on-one right. And for me, that was the most important thing because it got me over my fears really quick. Right. My first sales job, I was in a telemarketing room, selling toner, ink, right. To people who didn't know me, didn't want it, wasn't expecting it. And the guy said, sit down, answer the phone, give me five nos.

I want you five rejections. And I want you to write them down. I want you to come back in my office. Right. And so I was like, yeah, I can do that five rejections. I mean, they're going to reject me. I can get to 20. Right. And then I went in his office said I got five regexes. He said, how do you feel? I said, I feel fine.

He said, now go get me one sale. Right. He made the goals obtainable. He made me not fear rejection because every day I had to bring him no.[00:42:00]

Five nos one sale. And he said, this is life. He says, you are going to get more rejection than you're going to get acceptance. You're going to get more push back. Then you're going to get acquiescence, right? This is life, go live on the phone. And I did that and I took that same modality in every aspect of my life.

So when I came out like kinky, I was like, yeah, I'm going to meet five people. I'm going to tell them I'm kinky and they're going to go away. And I'm like, I need five nodes to get one. Yes.

[00:42:40] CK: Is that part of the curriculum?

I'll tell you a partner in your kink and then your partner is going to tell you no intentionally and purposefully. So then you can use to the rejection

[00:42:53] Orpheus: so you can hear it. Right. Because I think it also, when you go into that intentional, no space, I can [00:43:00] also say, thank you for protecting yourself. You know what I mean?

Thank you for taking care of you. It gives me a few ways to appreciate them. And so I can make sure that they also here, uh, make sure that they understand that they're heard and respect because a lot of people say no, just to make sure that you can hear the no, except the no, and you're not going to shame them for their note.

Does that make sense? And so we go into the space and I can say, as for anything, anything not can actually connect to deeply. You know what I mean? Not connected. Cause we're just practicing hearing now. Does that make sense?

[00:43:39] CK: I mean, it's the dojo, right? You, you turn your bedroom into the dojo, Allah noble warrior.

We love those.

[00:43:48] Orpheus: Yeah, exactly. So hearing no for me was really important, you know, is it important building? I know other people have full philosophies around this, but for me it's the it's [00:44:00] really getting used to it, feeling it, letting it wash over you and then creating a pathway with which you use grace and compassion and dignity and appreciation to say, I heard you, I accept what you said.

There's no judgment. In fact, I'd like to congratulate you for being able to use your note for being the express, your no, and it's okay to say no to me. Right? So that for me is really important.

[00:44:33] CK: I, I really loved the tone. The way of being that you hold when you do the communication, it's mutual respect one spiritual being to another spiritual being versus right in my mind like one person overpowering the other person.

That's like, it's, it's, it doesn't do anything for me. So if you, if you don't mind going to this space, what is the difference between [00:45:00] force and power in the way that you teach you, you act as you teach your clients to practice in the sacred space. That is the bedroom.

[00:45:10] Orpheus: Mm. force force is a nonconsensual immersion of an active nature, right?

Uh, it's nonconsensual it's, it's pushing, it's, uh, overriding. It's overwhelming that's force, and it's not consensual. Even if it arises from a natural place, even if it comes with good intention, it's not consensual power. On the other hand is the ability to influence something in a way that is beneficial to you.

You using your power, your influence, to be able to produce an outcome that is beneficial to you. Now just like force. It can be used negatively. It can be used positively. [00:46:00] Right? And so what I help people do is become a conduit by which power moves through you. Yes. You have the ability to influence your partner.

But do we want to do that at the moment? Or do we want to provide them with an opportunity, a choice that empowers them, give them the opportunity to say, do you want to participate in this thing with me? Yes or no? Right. That's power. The ability to use your voice to make a choice. Right? So taking my influence out of it, not using force, providing them with an opportunity and then allowing them to make a choice and not penalizing them for their choice.

That's the process. Mm.

[00:46:51] CK: I love that. Now, since you've worked with a lot of people, do you see different stages of development? You know, again, bringing [00:47:00] back the martial arts example, right? The yellow belt, orange belt, the red belt and black belt, like what for you, have you observe or learn different stages of development in the sacred space?

That's the bedroom?

[00:47:14] Orpheus: The thing that I learned the most is that people develop in the areas that they want to develop in first. And then they develop in the areas that they need to develop in second, right? Because everybody has a trauma that they want to deal with or a potential trauma that they want to deal with.

Right. When I used to do a Sierra club. Uh, basically what they talk about as being a first responder up there. Right? And this is how it often works. Let's say guys, mountain climbing, he falls, he breaks his legs, but he also cracks his head open. And I go over there and say, let me deal with your head because that's most important.

The guy goes, no, it's not my head. Stay away from my head. It's my leg. [00:48:00] Stay away from my head is my leg. What are you doing? Right. He doesn't have awareness around this other thing. He's only aware of this. And so what they say is deal with the problem that he's aware of first and then get consent to treat his other injury.

Because sometimes we have a deeper insight into what's wrong and they don't. Right. So it's really important for me to deal with what they think is the problem first and then ask them if they, if we okay. If we look in this other area in this way, right? If so, I deal with their want first and then their needs second.

[00:48:44] CK: Got it. So you meet them where they're at, what their desires are first, then as a coach, as a guy, as a Sherpa, then you point out like, Hey, have you consider right in a way that only Orpheus could do. Okay. Got it.

[00:48:58] Orpheus: Let me get you a story because what we're [00:49:00] dealing with is a person's perception of a problem. Right? And so I had a, I had a partner and she had an issue that she couldn't see, but I could. And so I walked her into the bathroom. I said, look in the mirror, what do you see?

She says, she sees her eyes or nose or mouth and her hair. I said, can you see the back of your head? And she said, no. And I said, well, you have to understand that there's a part of you that I can see that you can't, and I'll do the best I can to describe it to you, to talk to you about it and try and work with you and your feelings about it.

Right. But you have to allow me to see you entirely and recognize that I'm trying to see you entirely, your perception of yourself and my vision of you are different. So help me help you. In a lot of times, I have to have that conversation with a client because I come with an outside perspective. I can see the back and they can't, [00:50:00] you know, and so what I look for the telltale signs of the problem or the avoidance, right?

Because we have to remember that avoidance running, uh, shutting down, uh, Escaping are all part of our reflex. It's all part of our fight flight or freeze mechanism. It just manifests instead stem, running away from a tiger. We're running away from an argument, same product process, right? We're running away from a conversation we're running away from an ideal work concept.

All of it's the same thing, or we're resisting fighting, right? Fight flight or freeze, but maybe you're going, I'm not having this. I'm not taking this big loud voices. Right. Coughing up really big, you know, like a Cobra, you know, doing this thing to intimidate. That's all part of the fight. It's more part of the resistance.

And so [00:51:00] as I see the resistance, as I see the, the flee, the avoidance, as I see the freezing and the shutting down, I understand that we're in an area that is sensitive and safe. It's raw, it needs healing. And so I wait until we've dealt with what they think the issue is. And then I ask if it's okay if we talk about this, does that make sense?

[00:51:27] CK: It does. I really appreciate the way that you talk about it. And so you, my mind how're reinterpret the way that you say this is as you, as you address their desire. And then you point out to them, they're blind. Correct. Then you are working with them to free them up from the negative charges that they may hold onto anchor, you know, or be feel trapped about.

And then as a way as a path to be more liberated, be more free, right. Really [00:52:00] sexually specifically, but everywhere else in life in general.

[00:52:03] Orpheus: Exactly. Because everywhere else is suffering from the same thing, because it's all connected. Right. And again, to, to look at, um, chill, sown and the fighter, he has this model that he uses and he says, um, when you put pressure creates stress and stress creates fatigue, right?

And so this thing that's pressuring us, we're trying to alleviate, and we alleviate it with one of three natural inclinations to find it a way to run from it. Right. Or just to shut down and just freeze into it. Right. These are natural instincts and it's okay. It's got us, you know, a million years. It's got us to this point, right.

But we have to look at every aspect because it all saying the same thing. I need to get this painful discomfort, whatever [00:53:00] it is off of me. And the longer it stays, the more stressed I become and the more tired I become. And we all know that we don't make the best decisions when we're. Right. When we're exhausted, when we can't take anymore, we make rash decisions.

So my job is to help you a support field, where that pressure is a help support you in getting it until you can push it off for you. Right? Then we can start working on the stress. And once the stress is relieved, then we can start finding peace. We can start resting, we can start recharging. We can start dealing with the things that we need to do so that we don't put that same pressure, or at least to that same existence, uh, to the same extent on us.

And then we also create protocols for dealing with stress. And then we create, um, time for us to heal [00:54:00] meditation time, introspective time, uh, vacation, time to deal, to recharge and go back into that space.

[00:54:09] CK: I love that. So we talk a little bit about the, before you shared with us a little bit, either your personal story or clients, that story about the after.

Describe it for us because this is in my mind. Again, this is sacred work. You know, tap into a space of freedom, tap into space of liberation and, and to the most primal space, you know, the animal, the animalistic self, right. That the primal space. So, you know, getting to the somatic, you go inward and to be able to articulate, uh, to myself and then to another, that these are my wants and needs and sacred work.

So describe for us, what is the after,

[00:54:59] Orpheus: can you, when [00:55:00] you say the after, I'm sorry. I just want to make sure I understand before and after. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The, the transformation that I see the most is this awareness of self it's. Like, I didn't know I needed that is the thing that I hear the most.

I didn't know. I wanted, that is the next thing that I hear. Most people don't dream. Most people have never been asked, what do you want? What can I provide for you? How can I help you? I get so stuck in this. I have to do it myself. Right. They are nonconsensual. Individualists is how I like to think about it.

[00:55:45] CK: There was a lot of syllables. Say that again. Non-concessional individualist. What does that mean? Meaning

[00:55:51] Orpheus: they're co they're collectivists at heart. They want to be in families. They want to be in groups. They want to be in relationship to another person. And through a [00:56:00] non-consensual happening, they wind up forced individualist.

Maybe it's a breach of trust. And so they don't trust someone anymore. And so they I'll do it myself. I don't need anyone. I don't need a man. I don't need a wife. I don't need a partner. I don't need this. I can do it myself. I can take care of me, but they really don't want to. Right. They want to have rely on another person.

They want to be cared for. They want to be tender a tender with somebody, right? Um, in Kenya they have a proverb that says only another person can scratch your back back. And it's important to know that. And yes, some people are completely, self-sufficient completely happy with it. Great. Well, for most of us, I want to be in relation to another.

We want to be in relationship with other people. We want to create healthy, sustainable maintainable dynamics that are [00:57:00] mutually beneficial and rewarding. Right. And so a lot of people say, I didn't know that I needed someone for that. I didn't want to meet someone for them. I didn't want to rely on someone and now I want to make that change.

I want to make that investment. I want to know what a healthy relationship feels like. Right? Because most of the ones that we have are toxic, right? It's the same thing in business. Most people have worked in more toxic environments than they have in good ones, productive ones. Most entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs because they don't want to work for somebody else because those environments are not conducive to them being who they are.

I know that's how it works

[00:57:48] CK: for me. He works for me,

[00:57:55] Orpheus: you know, psychic, [00:58:00] but at the end of the day, you know, having a safe space to not only work, but thrive right to, to express yourself, to be able to interview the people you want to interview, work with the people you want to work with in do and live the life that you want you is the reason that we free ourselves up.

We should still have that same energy, that same ideal, and that same modality when it comes to a relationship. Right. So I have a test on my weapon. That is, what is your dominant archetype? Meaning what is your leadership archetype? It doesn't matter whether it's in a boardroom, doesn't matter whether it's in the bedroom, you take the test and helps you understand the archetype that emerges most often from within you.

Right? And

[00:58:45] CK: then what does the

[00:58:45] Orpheus: different archetypes, by the way, the four major archetypes are father magician, um, director and king, right? These are the ones that you're going to see the [00:59:00] most as a, as an entrepreneur, you know, that you have to direct and guide people. You have to tell them what they do. You have to delegate.

That's just the way it is. Even if you're delegating to yourself. Even if you're self managing self leading, you have to delegate. That's important. But it's also important to know that there's a certain fathering that has to happen. I have to help people develop the skills that I need in order for them to be both sex successful here and for me to be successful out there.

So there's some fathering that needs to happen, right? But also the vision. If you don't have a vision for what's out there for what you want to build for how it's going to come to fruition and the right people to be in these spaces, nothing happens. What I find is sorry, what I find is that most people don't have a vision for their relation.

You have a five-year plan for your business, but not a five-year plan for your family, [01:00:00] right? You have a five-year plan for investment, but not the emotional investment. You know where to put the capital, but don't know where to put the love and attention and time, right? You have to have vision. So the same thing that grows a beautiful, successful thriving business, or the same skill that you need to put into a thriving, beautiful relationship, right?

Because all business is relationships, right? All relationships have a power dynamic, just like every business relationship has a power dynamic. We have to make, uh, agreements that are explicit in not just implicit. We're very explicit with the relationships that we have in our businesses. You are my secretary, you are my CEO, your, and we've defined it.

And we have this thing, but we don't go into our relationships with the same explicit agreement,

[01:00:58] CK: right. At the [01:01:00] risk at the risk of TMI, I'm going to say this. I do dream of having very explicit descriptions. Because in my mind as communication, right? So by making the implicit explicit, Hey, here's even just something as simple as household responsibilities, you're responsible this area I'm responsible that area.

So that way there is no, I thought you want to do this, but you didn't do this medication happening. I mean, accuse that's way too business. See, in my mind, it makes

[01:01:35] Orpheus: sense. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts? Well, this is this. This would be, if you were taking that test, I would guess that you would be high on the director because the director is very organized, very principled, you know, wants to make sure everything is clear, transparent, you know, and everybody's working in a congruency, you know, I'm holding up my in, you're holding up your rate.

That's great. But, and that's, and [01:02:00] that's going to be an avenue, but it can't be the bulk of your archetypes that emerge. You have to say, well, you know what? My partner is not used to this. So I have to father them. I have to use this kindness, love, compassion, and help them develop the skills that are necessary to be able to take on these roles.

Right. Because just because they're old enough to consent to be in a relationship, doesn't mean that they're mature enough to do at success. And so sometimes we have to be a part of the maturing process. So we have to come in there and allow that father, uh, archetype to emerge, right? Again, people come and work for you and I have to nurture, there's a nurturing time, a nurturing period to get them up to speed, to get them into a place where they can be beneficial to me.

Right. And so we can't as directors, just leave that part out. We have to cultivate that as well. Does that make sense? Yes.[01:03:00]

[01:03:01] CK: I appreciate that.

[01:03:08] Orpheus: Wait, wait, I got to say this. I have a unique insight as an American into Eastern culture because I have been raised with Asian philosophy and I've just loved Chinese culture. I love Japanese culture. I love Indian culture. It's my speciality. Right. And so one of the things that's really important for me is acknowledging that people have traditions, right?

And they have ways of being that are deeply rooted in who they are. And it can't just be picked out and overlooked, taking those traditions, working with those traditions and seeing how they can be beneficial to making a healthy, long lasting relationship really helps. A lot of people feel [01:04:00] empowered because like you said, it's like, no, I'm very detail oriented.

You know what I mean? It's like, it's important to have both the love and the structure. Is it important to have both? Whereas in America we're like, love no structure, VCM saying, what is tradition? You know what I mean? That is tradition. So for me, taking your strengths, taking your cultural narrative, taking your cultural inheritance and helping you make it beneficial for your audience, for your partner, for your family.

To me, is something that I love to do. It's really important to me. And it doesn't mean I have people who are Hasidic Jewish, right? I have people who are Chinese, Japanese, a Pacific Islander to me, going into that cultural narrative, bringing it forward and making it beneficial for this. These people in this environment in this day and age is really healthy integration.

Yup. [01:05:00] What do you

[01:05:01] CK: think about that? I mean, I, I, a hundred percent agree is one of the other thing that we do other than being Yan. We talk a lot about fractal. Right. Confucius famously. I've said, you know, my listeners know that I use this line a lot is self-mastery family country, world. He said that it is a fractal relationship.

So, you know, we built what we are, right. So if we want our family life to be, well, it starts with us and we want to accompany, like to be, well, it starts with us. So it's a fractal relationship. So I love that you a very, um, intentional about cultivating this inner harmony first and foremost, right.

Articulating your desire, wants and needs, and then articulating to your partner. Then, then bring that to the rest of the family unit, that company unit, and so on and so on. So love

[01:05:54] Orpheus: it. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Thank you so much. I use it. I use Indra's net of [01:06:00] jewels too. You know what I mean? And so that is another aspect of a fractal universe, but only from a, uh, Hindu pro perspective.

You know what I mean? So we can, we can go into very, uh, every culture has the same fractal narrative, whether it's some native American cultures, they talk about dewdrops and how the whole world can be encapsulated in a Dew drop. And then you look into that, do drop and see another do drop is the another one.

It's really just kind of understanding that there universes within universes concepts, within concepts in each one, no matter how small is worthy of our attention.

[01:06:38] CK: Actually on a side note, if you don't mind, how do you explain the complexity of something like that to, in a sound bite format? Because in my mind, it's, if you get it, you get it.

If you don't get it, then you know, it's hard for me to even articulate to you about fractal phenomenon. So how do you, [01:07:00] how do you go about it? Just out of

[01:07:01] Orpheus: curiosity, to be honest, I don't, I just know it. And so I use it, but you know, you can see colloquial narratives that, um, sweat

right? It's the same, it's the same thing. Right? You have to look at, if you can look at the small, you'll see reflection of the large, right. And to me, every conversation that we have about the interpersonal dynamic is reflective of another area that also needs work. That's why it's so important to look at as a web, right.

Because it's all interconnected and I get compete, go all the time, who are like, I'm talking about the kitchen, but really what you're talking about is the constant upkeep of the relationship. It's not messy in the kitchen or in the bedroom or in the closet.

[01:07:52] CK: Oh, okay. So you do do the jump like, Hey, you're talking about this, but what you're talking about is the macro.[01:08:00]

Exactly. I like that. I'm going to, I'm going to take, that's a, that's awesome.

[01:08:08] Orpheus: What am I? One of my clients, I love them to death. And they said, it's okay for me to use this one. This example, the husband kept leaving stuff all over the house. Right. And she's like, he won't pick it up and he's always this and there's always shoes.

And it's always this. And it's always that. I said, what room in the house did he design nothing? Say, what paint did he pick out for the walls? None. What furniture did he buy? None. Maybe he's marking his territory. Maybe he wants people to know that he lives here and he's leaving unintentionally, subconsciously, or even repressively leaving little things.

He says, I'm here to, so why don't you put up some art that he likes that's reflective of his, who he is? Why don't you put up a [01:09:00] room or something? An area that has his tastes in an area for him to inhabit in occupy and feel comfortable with, right. Puts a space for him in every room and see if he clears up.

And it did, right? Because oftentimes what we're seeing is, is our perception disrespect. Uncleanliness, it's setting us off, triggering our thing, and we're not thinking deeper about the nature. Right. And I know 50 million men who allow their wife to take care of this whole thing. And I also know 50 million men that leave their crap all.

So instead of thinking about this as a direct assault on your senses, think about, I wonder why he's doing that. Right. I can tell you before I had this space, I left my stuff everywhere. Right? I couldn't figure out why I wouldn't make up my bed. I can't tell you why my bed stays made up. As you can see right?

[01:10:00] Every day, every morning made up because I love my space to look the way I want it. Give the person a space. Right. Which brings me to another aspect of my teaching, which is space, place, time, sacrifice, space, plays, time, sacrifice. If you can remember those four things though, see every element of the relationship in a fractal kind of space, right

[01:10:28] CK: before you go on, by the way, because you shared this with me before we started the podcast, what is the difference between space in place

[01:10:37] Orpheus: spaces and environment, places, a location.

[01:10:41] CK: Okay.

[01:10:43] Orpheus: Yeah. So this room, the walls, the ceiling, the floor, these are places. This bed is placed in this, in this place, right? It's. Space is the environment. It's the [01:11:00] feeling right? When you look at like Michelle,

[01:11:06] CK: let me, let me articulate to understand as a, as a place is the physical, the physicality spaces, these, the intangible, the mood experience is that yeah.

Yes, that's correct.

[01:11:18] Orpheus: Please continue. Space is usually associated with shelter, security, privacy. When a person wants a safe place, what they're looking for, shelter, you know, hard walls to keep the world out in our primal brain. It's the cave right? In our subprimal brain. It's the womb, right? It's a thing that, you know, that we are able to develop it.

Okay. The space is the ambiance. It's the way it makes a person feel, right? Like our mother's house feels different than any other place. Right? Our ancestral home makes [01:12:00] us feel different. It's not just the location. It is the environment that is created the way I feel in that space. So we want safe spaces that feel good.

Right. And so we always have to remember that space is a feat. It's a mode is it's just a way of being in that environment. Michel Fuko to calls it heterotopic spaces, right? A heterotopic space is a space that helps us be who we need to be in that environment. It brings us out. We may be a different person just because the space feels good.


[01:12:41] CK: extra snacks, you just looking at your space.

[01:12:45] Orpheus: Well,

it helps you. So when people step into that space, you know, they feel S you know, say they feel calm. They feel sexy. They feel turn on and they have these different things. They may have [01:13:00] not felt that out in the hallway, they may have not felt that at work, but this helps transform a person because the space that is created is conducive to that thing.

Most people's bedrooms are not conducive to feeling sexy. It's not conducive to feeling intimate. You know what I mean? The focus of the room is a television that takes you into a different world, a different place. It doesn't reflect the, the, the sexual narrative that is there. Right? And so they understand they have a place where you put the bed a place where we sleep right.

The place, but we don't have a space that's conducive to having the intimate activities that we're looking for. Hmm. Does that make sense?

[01:13:44] CK: It does. And one particular, uh, component of those four components that you share gave me an aha moment. Okay. Sacrifice. Yeah. And then you had [01:14:00] said earlier that rituals are required for good life, a life that matter.

So say more about that. Why did you say that? Because that felt true for me. And then the specific point of it is the sacrifice component.

[01:14:13] Orpheus: Yes. Uh, we're skipping straight to the sacrifice. Yes. Are we skipping straight to the sacrum? No,

[01:14:21] CK: no, no. I mean, you can go into your

[01:14:24] Orpheus: yeah. Um, let's see. Let's how can we bridge that right off?

Cause I usually work up to it. Um, Sacra, first of all, ritual is important period because it breeds significance into whatever it is that we're doing. Really the ritual around anything is really the process of imparting significance. Significance is important. It's so important that we give each individual one day a year where they can feel significant their birthday.[01:15:00]

Right. We say, this is a day where we come to you. We'll all gather. We'll all reverence you. We'll all Revere. You will talk about the day you were born or the day we met we'll reflect on how important you are to each and every one of us. But why can't we bring that same ritual into every aspect of our life, that same intentionality, right?

Why can't we create rituals that, uh, support narratives that are important to us? Right? I love family dinners, the ritual, knowing that it's going to be there, knowing that when I show up, my dad's going to be sitting there and my mom's going to be sitting there and my sister's going to be there. My brother's going to be there.

I love the ritual of it. Forget the meals, the ritual, right? It's the giving. Thanks. It's showing appreciation. It's the sacrifice of, I know you could be doing something else, somewhere else with someone else, but you've [01:16:00] made time for us because we are significant to you, right? That's the sacrifice element.

So oftentimes when I'm talking to couples a saying, you have to acknowledge the other person's sacrifice so that they feel significant. Your husband's not watching the game. He's doing this thing with you. He's not at work. He's doing this thing with you. He's not doing some other thing that he wants or needs to do because you are so significant that you've taken precedence.

It's up to you to acknowledge the sacrifice, right? And they should be doing the same for you. You know, you're not out doing your thing, doing your exercise, doing your yoga, working your job, doing your thing, and he should acknowledge the sacrifice in that space. And so for me, when we do the space, thank you for creating this amazing environment for lighting the candles for, for putting on the music for doing this thing.

[01:17:00] You took time to do this intention effort. Let me acknowledge and support from my down deep in my heart that you did this. Thank you. I appreciate it for you making time for me, right in your schedule, even though we're in this relationship and we may have been together 25 years, appreciation is important and appreciation is recognition of the sacrifices that you've made to make this happen.

Right? Space, place, time. Thank you for keeping paying the bills to keep the light on the, the paying for the oil that make it, make sure that this house has one. Thank you for your sacrifice. Thank you for taking care of the kids. Thank you for raising our children. Thank you for, for cooking this meal.

Thank you for taking time to watch what I want to watch on television. It's always a good one. Cause I know you don't like my program and you could be doing something else, [01:18:00] but you're sitting here with me. Thank you. That's what the sacrifice is really for us to really remind people, to appreciate their partner for the things that we do and not take them for granted.

[01:18:13] CK: Yeah. Yeah. A space for gratitude is so important because after a little while

[01:18:21] Orpheus: space, right. Space for gratitude.

[01:18:26] CK: Because after a while, when two people are familiar with each other, it's so easy to take the gift of presence of sacrifice of time of space for granted. Right? Of course, you know, Orpheus C K, they're going to be here, like be a jerk.

[01:18:49] Orpheus: Right? Right. Well, we won't go to bed, man. You know, that's taken it for granted that that person will wake up in the morning, make it home from work. I mean, you know, not to bring it down, but [01:19:00] you know, there's a lot of people who didn't get a chance to have that conversation with their partner when they went on nine 11 to that building.

But if you make a ritual of gratitude, appreciation, acknowledge. Right. Every day, you feel comfortable every morning for 25 years, I've got up to watch my wife get dressed in the morning before she goes to work every morning for 25 years, I at least open my eyes to watch her walk around them every night, or as much as I can before I go to sleep.

I want to see my wife, whether she's mad at me, upset with me, loving me, not loving me. I want to see her face because one thing I want or one afternoon I won't. And so I make a ritual and I show her, I appreciate her. I make comment and say, good morning or higher you looking good or whatever it is to say something before she walks [01:20:00] out the door, just acknowledge.

Sometimes you have to acknowledge. And now I'll give you, uh, where I got, where I got that from. I actually got that from the tower of Pooh, right? And in the book, piglet says, Hey, Pooh. And Paul says, yes, piglet. I just wanted to know that I exist. Right. The acknowledgement of my existence is sometimes enough.

And so just waking up and just saying, good morning. Hello. Hi. I see you. I hear you. Thank you. Isn't enough.

[01:20:39] CK: On that, on, on that note, uh, recently I came across a really interesting, um, internet meme. They just summarize what we just talked about is where whenever you speak to someone, imagine this is the last conversation that you have with this person.

Then of course, nothing but kindness and the most [01:21:00] compassion and generosity comes out versus, you know, you, you, you, you, whatever.

[01:21:05] Orpheus: So yeah, that is absolutely important. I like the, I like the framework of space, place, time, sacrifice, uh, as a, as a process for that, right? Because a lot of times people are very analytical and they need to be able to hit steps, right?

Making time, time has made, it's created as fabricated me. You make it, you don't get it right. You have to make it. You have to carve it out. So take time to carve it out for your partner. How much of this pie have you carved out for your partner? How much have you carved out for your relationship? How much have you carved out for your kids and how, what is the process for devoting for how much time you create for each person?

Right? Because it's really going to be what you perceive as being most significant. And if you take your wife for granted, if [01:22:00]you take your husband for granted, that's, liver's going to be smaller and smaller because you think you can make it up later one day, there's not going to be.

[01:22:10] CK: So I want to ask you a question about this line between adaptive and maladaptive regarding honoring your desire because, uh, whatever we focus on expands.

So if I focus on my desire in my mind, right, it's going to expand more and more desire, which is fine. No problem there. However, uh, I guess the concern I have is become this hungry ghost. You know, I'm always grasping for, you know, desire if I have this much money. Oh, 10 X that, and then they'll have more and more.

Yeah, it's gotta be better. Right. You know, whatever house, the toy or the accolades or the right. So for you, since you're teaching people to get familiar with their authentic desire, [01:23:00] what for you, do you teach him the line between adaptive and maladaptive of their desire?

[01:23:08] Orpheus: Yeah. Yeah. This is a difficult one.

Um, because first we have to have a, uh, an idea of what desire is. And I take the Sanskrit word comma as the Kama Sutra comma means desire, but it's unique in that in Hindu culture desire kind of has this understanding of coming from a place. Of completeness longing to feel completed. You know, there's just like when you feel hungry, there's a hole and I want to fill it so I can feel whole and happy and complete, right?

You, it comes from a place of striving for equilibrium, just enough to get balanced. Right? And so to keep your desire from getting out of control, think, am I satiated at this moment? Did I [01:24:00] have enough that I receive what I needed? And that's important when we go past that point of need is kind of like stuffing yourself.

Eventually you feel bad, you get sick. It's no longer conducive. It doesn't feel good anymore. We have to recognize the cycle that there's going to be emptiness, and that there's going to be a desire to strive for equilibrium or wholeness. And that is what we call desire. And then we're going to fill that space of emptiness and then we're going to feel content and we're going to enjoy it and we're going to relish it.

And then we're going to wait for the process to happen again, if you force it right. If you force the thing, if you overwhelm yourself, if you push too hard, it will break. You won't feel sick. You will not be happy with it. Hmm. So we have to go into the space of [01:25:00] just recognizing the cycle and where we are in it.

[01:25:03] CK: Yeah. Going back to, again, the core of what I'm hearing, all of this is this awareness. So Matic awareness, just awareness, intellectual awareness, emotional awareness, spiritual awareness, just awareness always comes back to that. Is that accurate?

[01:25:18] Orpheus: Correct? Yeah, that's correct. And understanding, you know, there are people who have issues, uh, kind of a dysmorphia around their desires where they're receiving lots of attention, lots of care, lots of sex, lots of intimacy, but because it's dysmorphic because they can't see it in its fullness.

They feel that they, they want more than they need. Right. Big crave, hunger long, just like people who have eating disorders, they're overfilling or purging. Right. Recognizing that behavior in and of [01:26:00] itself can sometimes help people reign it in. Okay. So what's an example of kind of a purging in a sexual space.

Like when I go celibate, I'm going to celibate. I want to reduceall sex, nothing. Why? Because I can't achieve a healthy equilibrium. Right. And then what does that force me to do now? I'm starving. So I. Right or so I over sex or overindulge in my desire. Right. And then I have to urge again, right. Or there's some people who just continue.

They just can't. They go eat and they consume, they consume only consuming. They consume hungry ghosts. Right. It's never enough. It's never enough. It's never enough until they're sick and they kind of get this, I'm going to say psychosexual or psycho, uh, or psychic obesity.

[01:26:54] CK: What does that mean? Again?

Psychosexual and psychic obesity.

[01:26:58] Orpheus: Yeah. Psychosexual is [01:27:00] the emotional gratification that we get from the thought of doing the thing from, from watching, looking, seeing it's the psychological gratification. And I think that there's a type of psychic obesity that people can get where they can't get enough.

Kate can't stop seeing enough, like people who have porn addiction, right. They overindulge in the porn, right. There's people who have fetishes, where they overindulge in the fetish. There's people who want sex so much that they drain their partner. Right. They're not taking time to savor the meal. They're not taking time to deeply in, on all levels.

Appreciate what it is that they're receiving, creating a ritual around sex, sexuality, intimacy relationship. Right. Really can help a person save or what it is that they're [01:28:00] receiving, right. A process of gratitude can be a part of your thing, right? Recognizing a person's sacrifice can be a part of thing.

You know, paying respect to the space, maybe like burning Sage to say, you know, let me respect this space. Let me, you know, uh, let me look at the physical location and make sure it's up to par or whatever it is really appreciating the colors in the room that look on your partner's face. All of that can be something to help us reign in our desires to make sure it's healthy and beneficial to both us and our partner.

[01:28:37] CK: Okay. Yeah. Using the meal analogy again, it's not just, Hey, let me wolf it down in three seconds as quickly as I can versus actually chewing it and savor it and then, you know, looking at it and smell it and then articulate, you know, maybe even discuss it if you want to, as a way to deepen that experience altogether.

[01:28:59] Orpheus: Yeah, [01:29:00] that is absolutely correct. And if you think about how we appreciate our partners in those moments, this is why I say sex is the way with which we satiate our hungers and desires or the hungers and desires of our partner. So when you go into that space and you're satiating, it's taste, touch sound.

Right. It's vision. Look at them, feel them, taste them, right. Hear them, appreciate all of it. Take your time. For me, sex is everything that happens outside of intercourse, right? Intercourse, meaning the manipulate intentional manipulation of, uh, the erotic areas for the sole purpose of, uh, orgasm. Everything else is sex, right?

If you think about it like that, you can take a person more in, in their totality and realize [01:30:00] that oftentimes, when someone's saying sex with you, what they're saying is handholding eye gazing, soft touches, warm hugs, uh, kissing hair, stroking caressing. When you think about all that is sex, and you can appreciate that in that space, you'll realize that people want to do it with you more and more often because they're being engaged with in a way that they've not been in a long time, or if not ever.

Right. What are your thoughts about that?

[01:30:32] CK: No. So the spaciousness that you provide, right? So it's not, so they can be however shape or form or whatever, the way they are characters and archetypes, and then the space you provide, it's just. You know, they have that freedom. Right. And that finally someone's able to receive me as the totality that I am.

So I want to ask you a question, because you had made a point of the [01:31:00] partner of this person doing this, this thing, right. Has now the, the opportunity to cultivate compassion, right? So, so do you have any, um, methods, tactics as a way to cultivate one's own compassion towards another human

[01:31:22] Orpheus: being?

Yeah. Um, I think it revolves around learning how to receive. Most people don't know how to receive that intention, receive that attention to be able to be heard and seen in their fullness. A lot of times, um, clients will say, I'm not used to being seen and you see me it's uncomfortable, right? Because I'm not used to being fully heard, fully, fully seen, fully watched, fully engaged with, and this is a lot of attention.

So how do we create a process where you can be [01:32:00] comfortable with being seen? Right. What are the unique things that bondage pres provides is an opportunity for a person to. Step back and just receive. I like to kind of use this analogy that nobody likes bondage. Nobody likes financial, emotional, psychological bondage, right?

Like you'll be tied up because what you want to be is the center of a process. You want someone to pay attention to you, work on you. It works. Your only job is to sit back and just to be in a space of allowing being a space of permission, right. And allow yourself to feel the rope going around your body to feel the hands and the breath on your neck to be able to be in a non, uh, uh, in a space is non exploitive, right?

Where someone's not just trying to use you as [01:33:00] a means to an end, to just feel your body in the moment. And then to sit back and just receive the touch, the love, the hug, the affection, to be able to create your own intentions and have someone work within those parameters. To me when you're in that space and you learn how to receive fully, right?

You learn how to give fully, right? So for me, it's really important for both partners. Well, it doesn't matter if you're dominant or submissive or you have issues, you have to learn how to receive, and then you have to learn how to. To give yourself over to the space fully to let go of whatever's holding you back and to drop deeply into that space of reception.

Right? Cause both partners are self in other, on both the provider and the receiver. So I have to know it. I [01:34:00] have to know how to navigate both spaces.

[01:34:03] CK: I want, I want you to go a little deeper there cause you, you ran by those powerful concepts very quickly. You have to learn both give and receive right away.

So like why do they have to raise so that way they can go deeper into who they are and also the union of what's possible. So say a little bit more about that. Contextualize it

[01:34:25] Orpheus: for us. Yes. Yes. Alan Watts has this idea that people can't take care of themselves because what the self needs is not tangible.

It's it's tenderness, compassion, love, affection, right? That's what we need from other. Right. And so we have to learn how to receive that because most of us aren't used to it or lose to, uh, affection in the form of a gift or, you know, we're used to receiving dinner [01:35:00] goods services, but not true tenderness.

We're not used to being seen and cared for. Right. We're used to trying to take care of our body. You know, I give myself a facial. I give myself time at the gym. We think that's taking care of ourselves, but we need other people to just be able to listen and take time, be patient hold us those things. But when you don't have it for a long time, you forget how to receive it.

It becomes uncomfortable. You know what I mean? You, you resist, you push away. You're like, oh, I need this to be over. This doesn't feel good anymore.

[01:35:44] CK: Right. I'm used to the space of resignation. It's not totally foreign to me. Now I have to create a new space to even receive this.

[01:35:53] Orpheus: Right. Yeah. And another taoistidea doing, versus being another Buddhist [01:36:00] saying, doing versus being right.

We're used to doing affection, not being affectionate, right. We're used to doing acts of kindness, not being kind. Right. So again, we're not used to people being there for us and being with us and being in this, we're used to doing, acting on each. Right. I'm going to put, you know, you're going to lay back, I'm going to kiss you.

I'm going to get your body moist. I'm going to get you in and I'm going to penetrate you. I'm going to repeat, and I'm going to jump on you and then we're going to be done. And then we're going to do the cleaning up thing, and then we're going to go to sleep. And then we're going to go back and it's fine, but we're not being together.

We're doing a thing to each other. We're not being together. And we forget how to be with each other. Right? So again, you have to be both self and other there's things that I want to provide for my partner, because it's [01:37:00] deeply connected to my sexuality, right? I want to be someone's other, but I want to have people engage with my self, my true being.

I want them to touch my heart and my soul and my passions. I want them to feel me, not just my body. It's time to reintegrate into a relationship.

[01:37:28] CK: I love that.

Thanks for sharing that. And what's possible in that space, being seen and you know, really connecting because now we're really talking about the more spiritual aspect of it. Not just as using your words to sensations. Uh, just the emotionality connection of, you know, one another, but now it's more, it's even deeper than that.

So even more subtle than that. Can you describe that space a little bit [01:38:00] more, the sacred space of having a spiritual connection to spirits coming together through the secret path of sex?

[01:38:08] Orpheus: Hmm. You know, the, the, I want to use a word that I know we throw around arbitrarily all the time, which is spiritual, really spiritual is two words, spirit ritual, right?

It is the process that we've created to help bring forth and work with the intangible nature of who we are, the quintessential essence of who we are as a person existing in the world. And so for me, when we create a spirit ritual, it's about the intention. What are we focused on? Is this about bodies or is this about being close to you, merging with you making deep expressions to touch something in you [01:39:00] that is longing to be touched, needing to be, have a unification and something that's needing integration.

And so when we go into that space or talking about creating a spirit ritual, that, and the conduit that we're going to use, or the process that we're going to use as our body. Right. It's going to be both a physical merging in a psycho-sexual merging, right? It's about a full body prayer, right? It's about bringing forth the sacrifices that we made to be in this moment together.

All of those go onto the alter of our relationship. All of those are accepted, appreciated and revered by both people. Here's another thing. And maybe some people think this is blasphemy, but this is my opinion. Every human being wants to be both the worshiper and the worship. They want to [01:40:00] reverence others and be reverenced.

And so I need to ask my partner, how can I best reference you? How can I show my appreciation of you? Do I start at your feet and just appreciate every little curve, every little subtle nuance is about kissing you from here to there. Is it about holding you deeply enriched? Really? What's going to help you cultivate that spiritual space in this moment.

So I can give you the reference that you're looking for. Right? That's the hallmark of like the spiritual sexuality is bringing co-opting this person. Into the releasing of this soul to bring something forth from them that they haven't even seen in a long time.

[01:40:54] CK: Yeah. Thanks for that. Yeah. It's moving from, as you said, the physical, the [01:41:00] sensational to the psycho, sexual to the devotional, right?

What you just said that question in itself, leads do the devotional action.

[01:41:13] Orpheus: Definitely. And there's, there's meditation involved. Like this can be a deep meditation. It doesn't have to just be the physical undulations of our bodies. Right? Like I like to look at it like this abbreviate, Buddhism abbreviate, the word Buddhism.

When, you know, Buddhism, B, B U B D S M

[01:41:41] CK: I C

[01:41:48] Orpheus: I would never look at that to wherever.

Right. They see the word that you changed my perspective of the word change [01:42:00] and how I interact with the subject matter changes as a result of how I see the word. Right. And then the similarity is developed because of my frame, how I saw the same pictures through a new frame of mind. Right. And so BDSM changed into a spirit, right?

You know, it becomes a way with which I connect deeply originally with the people in my life. Right. It's taking into account that in this space, that which arises of itself as real and true in the moment and is worthy of respect and attention. Right. That is the Buddha-nature right. That is the essence of BDSM to me now.

Right. And so I move into this space of like, what's my expression, and I'm not going to be limited by the definition that's been provided to me. I'm going to move forward, richly and fully. I'm going to embrace my self-expression. I'm going to deep dive deep into my [01:43:00] shadow in the question. My resistance question.

My, why don't I feel like I should have everything I want. What's hindering me from asking for what I need and desire. What is the fear around this exploration

[01:43:18] CK: actually on that note, if you don't mind, traditionally, while in religion in general, uh, say, stay away from sexuality. So why do you think. Because I'm actually in agreement with you and there's not one path to one's own enlightenment and connection with the divine and so forth.

Right. So I'm, I'm right there. However, I'm always curious, like why do religions basically say no to desires? They know to the most primal aspect, that human species, the continuation of human species, like they say no to that. So as a, as a, as a coaches, coach, as a teacher, as an educator, [01:44:00] how would you respond to that inquiry?

[01:44:05] Orpheus: Yeah, I, to, to, to colloquially address the issue, I don't think that most religions say stay away from sex. What they say is don't eat the dessert first. You know what I mean? Don't skip the process of the spirit deep and meaningful spiritual connection, you know, and go shrimp

[01:44:26] CK: deserve first though,

[01:44:28] Orpheus: I know where they've created an outline for a safe, holistic, healthy way of doing it.

And what they think in most, most religions is I've studied them. The process is around mutual respect, meeting, connecting, talking, desiring, creating, uh, commitments, right between you, the source of your spirit, right? The family, right? The friendship. The society, the [01:45:00] establishment, making sure that you have people who are supporting your union and then moving into a place of exploration and sexual, emotional exploration, most religions, don't tell you what you can do within the sanctity of your relationship.

What happens for us in most cases is that we are looking to skip the process or looking to go outside of it. We don't want to, uh, hold our, you know, wait for the meeting, the right person. We want the chips and the dips and the candy now. Right? Right. Uh, so for me, uh, I understand that when people have, uh, this confluence, what they're looking for as a reason or an excuse to be able to go straight forward now, and whether I supported or don't is not really the issue, the thing is, is the, are you worried about not making the commitment?

Let's talk about that. Are you willing to not go [01:46:00] through the process? Let's talk about that. What's wrong with the process? What do you disagree with? Let's talk about that, right? Why do you want to skip through right? Maybe the society that you live in right now is not built to go through these processes or you don't have the access to that type of thing.

Maybe you don't want to be trapped by relationships. I don't know, but you have to figure it out. Right. We have to understand our attachments. And I think that's the difference between like Buddhism as I is I interpreted and come into this kind of Afros in space is it's not about just letting go of all your attachments.

It's acknowledging what is this connected to? And there are some attachments that have to have in order to exist in this Western society and understanding that there's suffering associated with it in the conscious acceptance of it. Right? [01:47:00] And so when we look at religion, religion is asking you to do the same thing.

There are consequences to your actions. This is the best process that we have. If you deviate from it, we can't be responsible for that. Right. But it's up to you. Each person has to live their own life. That's why we were given choice to choose this path or to deviate from it.

[01:47:29] CK: I love that. Do you mind if we, uh, ask one more deep question and we'll complete as a short okay.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Um, twice as almost two hours. So let's talk about the, the most subtle to energetic aspect of it. Cause we, we touched upon it, but we didn't really dive deeper into it. Uh, Many say that the sexual energy is the most potent NSE does the root chakra, right? What [01:48:00] is the relationship between one's creative potential to one's sexual energy ally root chakra.

[01:48:12] Orpheus: Hmm. Okay. I'm going to do the best I can with this one.

And I'm going to do it. I'm going to do this because I have a very different perspective on root chakras versus crown chakras, um, in the normal world, right? And our normal Western society, the way relationship works is root shock. You move it up into like the dantien area and you start going with, like, let's say courage, let's just say the, the, the more Japanese Zen, uh, feeling of it, then you move up into like the heart chakras.

And then when you move up into the throat chakras, then you move so on. So forth. That's how it goes. We lead with libido. [01:49:00] I'm turned on by that girl. That's your root chakra. I want to have sex. I I'm feeling depleted in this area. I need there's energy. I need to release. We lead with libido. Then we have the courage to start capitalizing on the emotional connection that I felt during that sexual engagement.

And I go over and talk to that person and say, I would like to have more, I'm starting to envision right. Envision a life together. And possibly it looks like this, a higher purpose. That's great. But in BD, same, it works a little different. I have this vision of what my life and relationship is going to look like this higher purpose.

And I thought about it and I want to start talking about it and I really feel passionately about it. And I'm going to have the courage to live courageously. And then once I have the courage to go into that space, we [01:50:00] can make it sexual and we can have those roots. That go deeper and more and farther because I'm really serving a higher purpose.

Most people don't know how to access their crown chakra, their higher purpose, because they're so rooted in one way of doing it. Right? So when you think about you have the vision, right, you bring it into your mind and you rationalize it. You start talking about it, you follow your passion, you develop the courage to live a lifestyle that is congruent with your wants, needs, and desires.

And then you consummated, you develop roots. That's much more important to me. That's the process that I teach because I think it's more holistic, more spiritual, and it serves a higher purpose because you've taken a ton of really think about how sex is used as a tool to creatively [01:51:00] reinforce or consummate the roles in that relationship that you have jumping straight in.

It's not being dictated by libido, right? That's there, but all those other things need to be developed so that you can have that healthy relationship. You have the courage to ask for what you're passionate about, right? Let's not just move mindlessly guided by impulse and then try to capitalize on those emotions.

And then move it up into your mind. Right?

[01:51:37] CK: The metaphor, the image that comes to my mind is imagine your vehicle, body is like a motor vehicle. You don't eat with your engine.

[01:51:48] Orpheus: Yeah, exactly, exactly. The driver,

[01:51:54] CK: you know, they're control that, you know, then the acuity of the senses, then [01:52:00] you use the engine to take you wherever you want to go.

Versus you just leave with your engine. And the driver is in the back. I'm trying to, I'm trying to hold on for DLI.

[01:52:11] Orpheus: Right. And, and notice that all these parts have to be working together to go to the next space. Right. And this is why when we do the test, most people, um, most people's highest archetype is the magician because everybody has this really high ideal of what things should be like sex should be like, relationships should be like business should be like, right.

But it needs to be developed a little bit more to make sure that we say, what is the higher purpose? Like what is really the noble warrior aspiring to be? How has it been to change lives? Right. How's it gonna affect the future? How are you going to change the world? That's that highest power, right? And then you start structuring and formenting in your mind, then you started talking about it because it's [01:53:00] really important for you to be able to develop the language, to help you express the vision that you see.

Right. And then other people, it touches them in their heart. It touched this the way it touches you in your heart. And you had the courage to make the first phone call to get your first guest, to do your first interview. And then you moved into that creative space that you made, right? Y, X not the same way.

[01:53:24] CK: Thank you for that. So let's talk about teachers. Yes. In this space, um, cautious sexuality teachers, you know, I've been looking, having found a lot, you know, you and John Weiland name came up, right.

Because of trusted friends and I'm like, oh yeah, you should talk to Orpheus. So from this space of teaching this, what do you think are the criteria for finding the right teacher as a, as a professional, as a practitioner, as someone who's deep in this space [01:54:00] you used, you recommend people to look for when they look for good teachers,

[01:54:08] Orpheus: What I think is most important is that that person has success in the areas that they're teaching.

Right? You wouldn't go for business advice to a person who doesn't have a, who's never had a business, right? You don't want to learn how to manage people from a person who doesn't manage people. If a person doesn't have successful relationships and you're going to them for relationship advice, then there's a problem.

Right. So that's really important. Um, I also think that you have to find somebody who has a unique and or nuanced a way of communicating that information that is in line with your way of hearing and receiving and learning. Right. I'm very esoteric, very philosophical, right? I'm very spiritual. Some people that doesn't land for them and that's okay.[01:55:00]

Right. And that's okay for them. You know what I mean? If you need like to be doing a thing, I have level of that. If you need to learn how to be in exist in a way that is congruent with your wants, needs and desires, then I'm your person. So for me, it's really important to make sure that the teacher is able to teach you in a way that isn't congruent with how you learn.

Right. And lastly, and this was just, I think the most important understand the difference between a coach and a cheer leader. Right. Someone who's going to just go, yay. You can do it. Yeah, you can do it is someone who's going to inspire lead and motivate you to being the best that you can. Who's going to challenge you and really push you in a way to make you better than who you are to me.

That's what a coach does. They take natural, raw talent and desire and take you to a place that you didn't know that you could reach. They help you [01:56:00] reach your potential to me. Um, that's what I like to do. I played football. You know, I've done martial arts have boxed. I know coaches I've sold. You know what I mean?

Uh, everything from Aerie cameras, a cinema cameras to giant screen TVs. I know sales coaches. I am a coaches coach. That's what I desire to be, but I will push you. You know, I will stretch you. I will make sure I ask the best of you. And to me, that's, what's most important in a coach.

[01:56:36] CK: I love that. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Rapid fire questions. What books do you give a most?

[01:56:44] Orpheus: My book. So you know what I mean? Because you know, most people don't want to understand submission as a way. They don't make the idea of submitting in any way, shape, form, or fashion terrorizes people, until they understand that it's [01:57:00] just giving yourself over to your own ones, your own needs and your own desires.

[01:57:07] CK: Love it. What's one of the best or most worthwhile investments you've made. It could be money, time, energy, et cetera,

[01:57:16] Orpheus: my children, most best investment I've ever made. Learn more from my kids, not learn from anybody else in the world teaches to learn, right?

[01:57:27] CK: What's a unusual habits or observed thing that you love.

[01:57:33] Orpheus: Um, studying what my partners love to study. I read all the books that everyone in my I'm poly. And so I have a potential, I have partners who are docked have doctorates and masters degrees. And so I read everything that they've ever read and I love it. It helps me grow as a human being.

[01:57:52] CK: Um, lastly, what's something that everyone should know about sex, but almost no one talk about it.[01:58:00]

[01:58:08] Orpheus: respect is the most important thing that's anybody will ever have, or everybody needs in order to have a good sex life. If you don't respect the person you're with. You'll never have good sex. If they don't respect you you'll never have good sex. And if you don't, even if they do respect you, but you don't feel that way, right?

It doesn't work. Respect has to exist in the space. And we have to pay respect. We have to receive respect. We have to give respect. We have to embrace respect and understanding that there's two types of respect. The one is I respect your position. Two is I respect you as a person. A lot of people conflate the two, right?

It's like, I respect you as a husband, but not as a person, or I [01:59:00] respect you as a wife, but not as a human being, right. That's when begrudging resistance comes up into sexuality, you have to have both areas. It's not only do I have to be a great husband and pay tribute and honor to my position that I hold, but I also have to be a good human being and show up fully in my masculine, fully in my healthy human, uh, fully in my spirituality with my partner in order to develop the type of personal respect that is essential to good sex.

[01:59:37] CK: We didn't talk about Paulie. And I'm very

[01:59:41] Orpheus: tempted, sorry.

[01:59:46] CK: Oh, okay. So on that note, right. I was going to rap, but I, so to me it's difficult. It's challenging enough to interact with a human [02:00:00] being, you know? Cause I changed this other person changes over time. Right. And then it takes communication and commitment in order to create some particle dance.

You know, that, that works. Whether poly is like the NFL, the professional grill, because now you're not just interacting with yourself with another person, maybe with kids. But now you're like multiple people. There's a lot of permutations and I'm just like, oh my gosh, this sounds like a lot of work.

[02:00:32] Orpheus: You know?

Like, you know, it's never work when you enjoy what you're doing, you know what I mean, or who you're doing, but it's never work. Right. And so people have to get out of this idea of poly being work. Really what we're talking about is most people want to be in a fixed position because that position that they're in is most comfortable with them.

They don't want to have to change alter or grow in any way, shape, form, or [02:01:00] fashion. So when you're with your say, wife in this one way, we're really scared to try and be something else with someone else. My, my wife might go, well, you'd never do that with me where you're never like that with me. Why are you changing for her?

Right. And my wife may like say, I have a little fear around you changing because you might like being that person better, not being with her better, but being this person that you are with her better. Right? So some of these fears around how we develop in different spaces with different people, right?

Each partner creates a different environment, which brings out the best or different aspects of who we are. And I might, I love who I am with one partner. And I love who I am with this other partner. I love who I am with this other partner. And if I had to learn how to be flexible, to be able to show up for many different people in many different ways, [02:02:00] if you do that, Polly will become a work because you're working to keep yourself locked in that same paradigm that you've written for.

[02:02:10] CK: Uh, good coaching. Thank

[02:02:11] Orpheus: you.

It was like, you know what you want to say, man?

[02:02:21] CK: Uh, Hey Orpheus. I really, really thank you for the way that you show up. And the work that you do. I see why my friends are really excited that we're having a conversation on noble warrior. The ethos of your come from place is purpose, commitment principles.

And then from that space lead the root chakra, you know, or, you know, and, and then with they intention of first and foremost know thyself, what is it that you want? What is it that you need and learn the skills [02:03:00] necessary to communicate that with your lovers in as a way to cultivate and also honor each other as spiritual beings, living a human life.

So just so, so appreciate you sharing your wisdom, your tactics, your questions, and also your sense of humor. Um, I felt like I was able to go wherever

[02:03:22] Orpheus: and you're able to get what I'm trying to do. It's all good. This is one of my favorite interviews. I gotta be honest. You do a great job. You do a great job, and I appreciate the way you showed up in this, in this conversation.

I do probably three interviews of form interviews a month, right? And this is by far one of the best I've ever had.

[02:03:43] CK: Thank you. I received that. Thank you. Uh, for those of you who are watching, who wants to have Orpheus is your, your sexual Oracles, your being your coach, uh, Orpheus black.com. He has this program from the [02:04:00] boardroom to the bedroom, or check it out, uh, such that you can be powerful in the way you articulate your desires even.


[02:04:09] Orpheus: Sounds good. Thank you for pitching it. You did a great job. Thanks. I look forward to doing this again.