My next guest is Tej Dosa. He is a DTC copywriter, online entrepreneur, and spirituality-loving Twitter personality based out of Vancouver, Canada who lives to fulfill his personal motto for living a full life: "top of the world or bottom of the ocean, zero desire to live in the middle."
We talked about:
(01:23) When you're in flow, what's the experience of writing a newsletter?
(03:23) We are the artifacts we leave behind
(08:26) What's your creative process of writing your newsletter?
(11:02) Why Tej write every day as a daily discipline?
(14:04) What's Tej's life purpose?
(38:38) Why writing and sex are the same thing?
(41:47) The counterintuitive way Tej cultivates super fans
(45:14) The greatest gift you can give as a creator to your readers
(54:26) Tej's perspective on teaching
(71:10) What's joy? How he robbed himself of joy and how he overcame it.
(75:54) CK's journey of finding his expressions again
(84:40) Two main drivers: suffering and curiosity
(87:07) Yearning, attachment, and suffering
(96:37) The front-end and back-end of his content and giving people what they want and need
(101:03) Tej's meaning of life and the inside-out approach
(113:52) How to play the game of life
(123:27) How his heart was dead and how he reignited it with fire again
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[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior T. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having
[00:00:03] Tej: me. I'm excited for this.
[00:00:05] ck: All right, so let's jump right into it.
One of the thing that's really impressive about you is your writing. When I hear, when I read just your newsletters out loud, It's very, the words are potent, it's fluid, and it's just truth coming through your newsletter. So if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about the journey of how do you do that?
How do you get there?
[00:00:36] Tej: Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate that. Um, I liked how you used the word journey, cuz it definitely has been a journey to get to this point because I remember when I first started writing and when I first started discovering about writing, my writing actually used to be like very hypey and it used to be like quite the opposite.
But like over time as I started to, [00:01:00] you know, have certain experiences and start discovering deeper layers to ourselves these days, it's so crazy. Especially when I write the newsletters and I notice the difference between the newsletters and let's say when I'm writing a piece of copy that's more geared towards getting somebody's money or selling a product.
I notice a very big difference in how I approach the game of writing when I'm writing the newsletters. It's. I'm just vibing so well and I'm like slamming my desks and excitement and I'm just overjoyed in creating because it feels like the writing is coming through me as opposed to from me. Whereas when I'm writing something that has more of an objective, like trying to generate the sale or something marketing related, sometimes I feel like, fuck, I have like writer's book, like, what's going on here?
The writing isn't flowing, it's not coming through me. It's too much trying to come from me. So my journey has essentially, it's kind of an accident, but essentially the way it [00:02:00] happened was just like going on this journey, just discovering more about my myself. And I started seeing a difference in my writing as well because I feel like with writing, the words are actually alive and whatever state you are in, well when you're writing the words is what state people feel when they're reading the words.
So the more alive that I come, the more alive my writing comes.
[00:02:22] ck: Yeah. I mean there's so much to dig into what you just share. Uh, I'll give you a metaphor I think that may be useful. Cuz to me writing is an artifact that you create that your soul, your spirit, who you are as a human being, create, right? It potentially could live in perpetuity for generations to come if you have that desire.
Right. Um, my friend Nick Laver gave a beautiful metaphor of what's life is like. He said life is a lot like. The comet flying through empty space [00:03:00] and the people think the trails of the comet is the comet, but that's not it. It's the comet, meaning, you know, the kinetic energy meeting space and creating these ice crystals and, and what we see, what we think is the comet is actually not, the comment is the trails, is the, is the artifact of the come itself.
So everything that we do, from my perspective, is potential artifact that we leave behind. It's an expression of our soul, our spirit, and, and even, even right now, people who are watching recordings of this particular conversation is watching an amplification, a snapshot of this moment and how we feel inside is gonna get amplified in perpetuity, you know, for generations to come, let's say.
I'm curious to know your thoughts about that metaphor.
[00:03:57] Tej: Absolutely. I think that's bang on, and I [00:04:00] really relate to that too, because it feels like there's a very strong distinction between when you're operating like that. It feels like you're overflowing and like what's coming from you. It's like coming from a very deep part of you and it's overflowing through you, and as a result, it's leaving something behind that can actually impact people even after the fact compared to something.
Where it's like, it's not you overflowing, it's you trying to create something in order to get something. And then I feel like that gets characterized with a certain different type of energy that actually doesn't end up doing this well either, because it's like really interesting. I feel like people can sense this without even realizing that they can sense this.
Sometimes you read something or you consume a piece of content and you're like, Hmm, Like they're saying all the right things, but something is off here. Like something just doesn't align. Whereas other times you're just like, screw it, and you're just being yourself and you're just vibing and you're just creating and you're just flowing because you don't even care what [00:05:00] the other person that's even listening to this thinks in a way, and then they're like, Whoa, that was so authentic.
That was so real. Like something about that just touched me. And I feel like the distinction is like there's certain types of writing businesses you produce copy, you write podcasts you create that are coming from that deeper expression of your soul, if you will. Just the word. And there's other podcasts, whereas sometimes I'm on other podcasts where it's like more marketing related, more surface level, and I feel like it's not an expression, it's not a deep expression.
I'm just like wearing a, wearing a mask and I'm just acting at a roll and I'm like, When is this podcast gonna be over? It's getting so boring, whatever, compared to something like this where I'm like, I don't even know what I'm talking about right now. It's just a free float. . Yeah. I'm a, I think that metaphor was bang on in conclusion,
[00:05:49] ck: So, so let me actually push back a little bit, right? Because in the world of spiritual development, person element, you hear people say a lot being authentic, [00:06:00] and I think that's important, right? That raw energy, that rawness of who you are as a, again, a spiritual being. Living a human life is important.
People may not necessarily remember everything you say, but they can feel the gestalt of what you transmit in that moment. Mm-hmm. , however, however, mm-hmm. , I believe that the true artist is able to feel it, um, that rawness of energy and then also refine Yes. You know, with precision, what the energy sound like, look like, feel like in the moment.
To me, that's like the next level, right? Mm-hmm. . So, so the first level would be, Hey, let me not talk about bullshit, Not, you know, come from, you know, my previous conditionings. Let me just come from my truth in the moment. Doesn't matter how un polished, you know, my words, my expressions may. . And then to me, this is me personally, not the truth.
Mm-hmm. , it's the next level would be, let me feel my truth and also use [00:07:00] my craft. Yes. To refinement, my mastery to express exactly how I wanted to deliver. So then you lands perfectly. Yes. Not just the rawness. Mm-hmm. of my spiritual energy. You know what I mean?
[00:07:16] Tej: Absolutely. I actually couldn't agree more with that because I feel like as a copywriter, the premise is to take the rawness of human life and put it into words that are easily digestible.
If the words can't be digested, then it doesn't matter how raw you're being, what you're saying, it's like the words weren't digested. So they serve a purpose, but it's like they don't serve, they couldn't go as deeper as they could have if they were put in a way that was easily digested. And I have like conversations about this actually with like one good friend in particular, and he's like very tapped in.
He has a lot of knowledge, lot of depth, and like what he's working on right now. Putting those [00:08:00] words in a way that people can actually digest and be like, Oh my God, Like this is what you're saying. Cuz I feel like sometimes you gotta take the rawness and you gotta put it in a way that's like either step by step or it's like tying knots for people, connecting the dots where it's like, whoa, this is what you're saying.
And then it produces the aha moment that actually delivers great change.
[00:08:24] ck: So a question for you there is, when you write that newsletter, I'm actually quite curious about, you know, the behind the scenes. Yeah. Is it one shot, one copy, one download, you know everything, No corrections, or is it multiple drafts or is it time boxed in a particular way and then you do the best you can, then you ship.
That's it. Like what is behind the scenes of those newsletters?
[00:08:49] Tej: Behind the scenes? I wake up, I turn on the laptop, I have a timer, it's called uh, Hey Focus. It's usually set to couple hours, couple hours of [00:09:00] deep work block. And then I get this little, I usually don't even know what I'm gonna write about. I usually just get like a certain inclination, like I just wake up.
Hmm. I'm like feeling like X, Y, Z a little bit today. And then I open up a Google Doc, set the font two size 14, set the, I mean, set the font to Georgia, set the font size to 14. And then what I do. I start with the subject. The subject isn't gonna be the final subject, but it's just like the vibe that I'm feeling in that moment.
I'm trying to like just summarize that very briefly and then I capture that in the subject. And then literally it feels like my eyes are closed and then I wake up two hours later and then I have the email. Sometimes it's not two hours. Usually it's like very quick, like 20 to 30 minutes, just pure like free flow.
And then it's so weird while I'm writing, it feels like I'm surfing the waves of life. Like it feels like I have certain inclinations, like, Oh, nope, don't say, Oh, move here. Oh, that's the end of this. And oh, like it literally feels like surfing the waves of life. And [00:10:00] honestly, the reason I write those emails is because as I'm writing, I get so enthused.
That's why I start my day off like that because I'm like, This is the best way to start the day. I'm like so excited, so joyful. And then towards the end I just get an inclination like, Okay, I'm done. This is over, and like this is like where it ends, and then I just stop. Then I just literally read it over a couple times.
If there's something to be fixed, I fixed it. Then I just put it up into the email marketing software, schedule it for the next day. Boom, that's done, and then I go on with the rest of
[00:10:30] ck: my day. Wow. Uh, this is daily.
[00:10:33] Tej: Yeah. So I used to like, daily I've been writing, like when I was in high school, I started up a blog in 2011 and I wrote daily for like 900 straight days.
I think I had like 900 posts. It was like, she, it was like very trash writing, right? So like I've kind of honed that daily muscle. But now, um, it was daily when I jumped on Twitter back in 2018 for a very long time. And then, um, I had periods where I was like off because I had like some [00:11:00] other business stuff to take care of.
But I realized that by not writing daily something was not getting fed in me. Like something was not being actualized and it would start interfering with my business life. So I was like, to me, like getting this off and like starting my day like that is like the best way for me to go about it. So I write daily.
I don't always publish it to the email list. Like recently I've just been publishing directly on Twitter, but I like to channel that energy first thing in the morning in that exact way.
[00:11:29] ck: So, So a sign of that you are doing your Dominic work is you're energized by it. So congratulations for finding a thing, right?
Writing that energizes who you are as a human being that not everyone can say that, by the way. Just, I just just want to congratulate you for finding the thing that you thrive in.
[00:11:53] Tej: Thank you. I actually never, never thought of it like that, so I really appreciate that. That means a lot.
[00:11:59] ck: Yeah. [00:12:00] And, and you used the word channel, uh, in, in the last sentence that you said, which, so the way you crafted your email newsletters is actually very similar to my, some of my friends who is practicing the art, the craft of channeling.
Mm. And channeling for them is channeling, you know, a deep aspect of who they are, you know, depending on your spiritual belief for them is they're channeling their future self, Right, Their higher self. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. They're trying to create that connection between where they are today, present moment to that very esoteric, that intangible essence of their highest self.
So, so the way they do it, you know, what they have, hone and crafted from different books and sources and things like that is actually sounds very similar to the way you are writing a newsletter.
[00:12:51] Tej: That's actually, that's another point that, uh, it's funny, I didn't even realize that I used to wear channeling.
So like, that's really interesting. I [00:13:00] do sometimes feel like you can sometimes like just say words that you don't even realize that you're saying it, and it's like a deeper hint sometimes to something that's actually truer that you're not even conscious of. So with that stated, I feel like it's very interesting to hear that because I feel like when it comes to creativity, I feel like personally, when I'm the most creative is when I'm not.
As in I, the condition character is no longer there. And there's something else that is like acting through you. Like you hear this all the time, like I'm obsessed with like watching videos of people that are very creative that produce like the number one song in the world, right? And you always listen to this interviews and the podcast or the interview is always like, Yo, like how did you do it?
Did you like stress over this for weeks and days? Like, did you perfect Debbie Line? And usually the answer is pretty similar regardless of genre. And the answer is like, No man. This was the easiest song I ever wrote. Like it felt like it just came through me and I was just like playing Call of Duty. One moment, next [00:14:00] moment I just get an inclination.
I go in the booth and boom, number one hit song all over the world. So I feel like I want to get into that place where my entire life or as much of it as possible is lived. Like that spontaneous, open-ended inquiry where I realize I, as the character can only know what I've already been through in the past.
That's the only recycled knowledge I have available to me. So if I don't want my future to be a reflection of my past, then I have to realize that this knowledge that I have in my head is great when I wanna know how to drive. Great. It's great for that. You know, I learned how to drive. Now I can drive, but when it comes to creating something new, I can't keep going into the same old garbage in my head and putting it together in new ways to create something new.
That creativity has to come from somewhere else, and I can just open myself up to be a recipient of that creativity. And when I get hit with that inclination, the greatest thing I can do is just let it flow through me to create [00:15:00] whatever, whether it's a business piece of copy, this podcast that's like how I'm slowly but surely there's a lot of fear in this way of living too, right?
Sometimes I like pussy out, I co it out. I'm like, Nope, couldn't do it, But it's okay. We'll get 'em next time. But it's like this drive, this inclination to wanna live my life as an entire open-ended process of creative discovery.
[00:15:22] ck: I mean, what you just pointed to is precisely the reason why I want to have you on my podcast talking about this.
Um, but, but before we go into that direction, I wanted to very quickly talk about different stages of development regarding creativity, innovation, things like that. Um, I'll share very quickly and can let me know if, what's your stage of, uh, development in this? Uh, the way I would think about it was I was trained as a PhD, uh, researcher.
So I was thinking very academically, right? So mm-hmm. basically [00:16:00] regurgitating all of the corpus of my knowledge was the way to, innovate. So that was stage one for me. Mm-hmm. and stage two was, okay, so let's actually cross pollinate different bits of information that hasn't been combined before. So recombining different things.
That was my second stage. Um, then it became, I became, I then became more spiritual. I then became, um, I wanted to seek the more, the, the essence of creativity, right. The, the essence of genius. How, how do you find the X factor that's no one's ever done before? Cuz I'm an innovator at heart. I, I, I can't just regurgitate someone's things or, or do like a linear Right.
You know, progression of something that's not satisfying for me. So I really want to come up with something that's truly original to me. CK Lynn, who's ever lived. So I'm curious to know, circling back, what was your stages of development [00:17:00] that got you where you are today? Yeah,
[00:17:04] Tej: I, I, um, I think you broke it down beautifully because like with my stages of development, especially like, I'll just talk about writing because I feel like that's like the core of it, the stages of development really reflected what you're talking about.
So like, when I first got started, like I was like, Trash eye writing, like I'm talking about like C minuses and like English class. Like, you know, you get that paper back, it's read everywhere and you're like, I don't even wanna look at this. Like, that's where my development started, right? With the, with the essay paper, with the red marks all over it.
And I hated writing. I was like writing, man, like, I can't wait to be done school. I never wanna write. Like, this is so boring. But then, um, famous last words, , . Now you do this as a profession. , that's like, yeah, that's , that's hilarious. But um, so like eventually I realized that like it was through business for me that I started learning writing because like, I needed [00:18:00] to learn because like my businesses kept failing and like I was trying to sell online.
So you really had to know how to communicate and like how to learn how to write. But in terms of your question, the way I started was with, I went through all the books because I didn't know anything. So I went through all the books. I studied people that were doing it. And for a very long time I was just replicating what other people were doing that we're seeing success in this profession.
And then there came a time, like a little bit later where I was like, Oh, this is like interesting. Like at this time I was reading a lot of James Altucher's blog and also certain features. No wonder you were, the flavor of your writing is very similar. I was like, it's.
[00:18:37] ck: Yeah. That's awesome.
[00:18:38] Tej: I love it. That's great.
I was reading James Altucher, I was reading Gary Halbert letters from the Copy World. Yeah. And I was also reading like various fiction writers that I enjoyed and that's when I started like tinkering and tweaking with my style and trying to combine all three together into like my own style with a little bit of my own flavor.
And that was like more conscious where [00:19:00] I was like really trying to like, you know, start off that first sentence, just like getting people's attention right away by combining the style, the little bit of James Altucher flavor where he is confessing a little bit too much, maybe he shouldn't, like I was really tinkering and tweaking around with that for a very long time.
And then eventually just from that rigorous practice, it kind of became like a part of me where like now I just sometimes open up the Google Doc and it just flows. But now it's more so like trying to bridge and combine creativity, writing and just like that deep, true expression, just following that flow of the heart, opening it up and being okay with wherever it takes you.
And that's like what? Blow key really mesmerized by, because I feel like just the feeling you get when you're just creating like that and you're surprising yourself in real time with what you're [00:20:00] creating, it's just like mind blowing. And that to me is what gives me the greatest joy from like a, it's not even work, but from like a work standpoint.
[00:20:09] ck: So one of the things that might make big theme for 2022 is making my life an expression of my inner joy and purpose. Mm. As my big theme, right? Because I have tried other experiments, right? Cuz I'm, I'm a, such a experimentalist, I've tried other experiments to make my life meaningful and this is the latest, um, thesis that I have.
And then the thing that is impressive to me about you is the natural expressions almost, it seems to me from an outsider point of view, effortless, you're just allowing things to flow through you. You're just creating the moment. You're just, you know, in podcast conversations, you know, you would drop jams.
Like it's nothing. . , thank you, , [00:21:00] you know, very much. Um, again, I don't want to, let's see, how do I say this? With all reverence to you. That's, it's, it's unfathomable. Someone who is 28 could do this so effortless. Let's say if you're 50. If you're 60, you know, if you being living a spiritual life putting a lot of hours, then I understand.
But people in their twenties, like, what, how does it do that? Right? That's where it doesn't compute. Anything you wanna say there?
[00:21:36] Tej: I feel like, um, my thing is I feel like it doesn't matter if you're 28 or if you're 14, or if you're 96, because my entire premise is like what's creating through you is not really the you that is 28 or 96 or 14, right?
So the greatest thing, and I don't know if I'm right or wrong, like I'm just like living my [00:22:00] life, making mistakes, fucking up and just figuring it out. But like the greatest thing that I discovered was all the ideas that I had that came from me. They never worked, but all the ideas that came through me, they always worked.
So for me,
like all this stuff with writing and copy, it wasn't brainstormed, it wasn't planned, It wasn't like I didn't have a five year plan. It was just, hmm, , . It just came from just trusting the unfoldment of life. And I feel like that to me was the hardest thing for me to do because I grew up very, very, very scared.
I was like a big pussy for a very long time, and I was like not willing to just trust life. But whenever I trusted life, it's like I would always flirt with life. Like, Oh, life. Like I'll trust you just a little bit. Like don't let me down. And life would just magnify the results by 10. Like, Hey, like you can let your guard down a little bit and you can trust this.
You can take more risks, you can put yourself out there. And every time I did that, I was like, Whoa, my world didn't. [00:23:00] Crumbled down. It actually got infinitely better. Let me trust this a little bit more. Then I kept doing it, kept doing it, kept doing it. Then I'm like, wait a minute. It just keeps getting more and more and more epic.
Why am I still exercising so much control? So for me to answer your question again, a little bit of a rant, I apologize. But essentially what I'm saying is, um, like when you say that, like, I'm not over here. Like, wow, man, I'm like doing so good, like 28. Like this is awesome. I'm just like, I've seen like 14, 15, 16 year olds.
I feel like as kids we're naturally tapped into this and we just get conditioned out of it.
[00:23:34] ck: Yeah, yeah. So let me double click on one thing that you said, and I'll circle back to the 14 year old thing. Okay. So what you said, what I heard is you were flirting with life and then you gave it a shot, and then your life became amplify, uh, exponential as a result of that.
So that's how you cultivate this faith, this [00:24:00] trust in trusting your intuition more and more. Is that accurate reflection of what you said? Yes. Yes. That, that my friend is an important point for anyone listening. You know, uh, noble Warriors would talk a lot about dojo, right? Moves, basic moves is all about the basics.
That what, um, what Taja said is an important one. How do you cultivate faith in yourself, in the universe? Well, this is one way t. So I wanted to double click on that. So to the point of being a 14 year old, you had mentioned, uh, somewhere in their podcast interviews, and I'm paraphrasing here. Uh, when you watch someone who is five years old, you know, the so full alive, so full of joy, you would assume that by the age 25, 30, 40, 50, there would be gods among men.
But, uh, what often happens is they become shadows of a [00:25:00] shadows of a shadow of themselves. Right. And because of all these conditionings from parents, from society, from schooling that they receive, that they, uh, got the light, you know, dim out of them. So when I mention 28 versus 50 60, I don't mean that there's no, the, the light is already there, but it takes work to unprogram, to, to unconditioned oneself, to allow this trust, this life, this, this, this, this faith in this inner light that we all have from the very beginning.
That's what I was referring to. Not the age thing, but this, the, the amount of work that it takes to trust that.
[00:25:47] Tej: Got you. Got you. That makes, that makes perfect sense. .
[00:25:51] ck: Yeah. Um, but with the words that you said, Let's see, By the way, I'm asking all these questions specifically [00:26:00] about writing as a, as a, as a avenue of expression, because I aspire to , it's express myself the way that you do.
I mean, I could do that with podcast, right? Conversations pretty naturally. Mm-hmm. , right? It, it takes, it took me hundreds of hours, thousands of hours to hone the skills so that I can speak effortlessly. But with writing, it just seems so stilted, right? Seems so rigid. It seems so flat because words, conversations, I have, uh, a, a chance, an opportunity to correct myself.
Mm-hmm. , if you didn't understand my tone, I can confirm. Did you understand what I'm saying? Right. It's, it's a dialogue going back and forth. We're writing in my mind, you write, and then you toss it into the ocean in hope for the best that they receive. The tone, the, the, the message, the thesis, what you want to, what you intend to do without [00:27:00] misinterpretation.
And that's that. Mm-hmm. . So hence why what you're doing to me is, uh, not to me, but what you're doing, um, in my interpretation is exponentially more challenging than, let's say, a dialogue. Mm.
[00:27:17] Tej: Yeah, I feel like, um, especially in the beginning, I've like went through that entire process too, right? Where you're like feeling a certain way and you wanna convey certain things, but like, then you publish it and then people get the complete different, opposite meaning outta it.
And you're like, All right, it's in the ocean. It's like, that's what they're taking it to be. Like. I don't know what else to do. The writing's already published. I can't go back and edit it now, but I feel like, um, so,
[00:27:43] ck: so, so you never had the, the impulse to like, Oh man, let me go back and fix it. You just like, Oh, fuck this.
Let me create a new piece.
[00:27:52] Tej: You know what it is, was like, I definitely had that impulse the first few times, right? Like, when I first started writing, I used to write for [00:28:00] other people. Mm-hmm. . I used to write for other people, and I would be like, Oh, like, how would somebody like take this in? And I like, through the copy stuff.
Like, that's all you do. Like when you write, you never write for yourself. You always like put yourself in the shoes of the reader and you like gauge their reactions to every word, and you address objections and you go on, and so on and so forth. So I'd spent so long doing that, but when I started writing more just like free flowing and more, just like the way I write today, it's like I never, I no longer write for anybody else.
I only write for myself. So even that process that I was explaining in the morning, like as I'm like literally like beating my desk when I'm like so overjoyed with certain things, it's like that entire process. It's for myself. That entire act of writing is for me to discover deeper parts of myself. It feels like, you know how we're having a conversation right now between me and you writing to me is having that conversation between myself and myself in real [00:29:00] time and I'm
[00:29:00] ck: discovering Quick question.
Quick question. Yeah. Myself and myself. Present. Present or present? Future. Or Present Past or
[00:29:08] Tej: what? Yeah. It changes like depending, sometimes like, sometimes like you are like writing to like a younger version, but usually it's like me and me in this moment and I'm just like digging into certain things that maybe from the past that may be from the future, but it's more rooted in this moment right here, right now.
So when I publish, that's like I'm already done with it. I already got the gold from it. I already extracted the value cuz I wrote it for myself. Now, if I publish and nobody reads, it's fine. The intention, like I genuinely mean. The intention was not for anybody else to read this. If they read it to get value, amazing.
If they read it, they think it's the worst thing in the world. Amazing. It's like, either way it's fine because my objective was fulfilled when I finished writing.
[00:29:52] ck: I really appreciate that mindset. Again, I'm doing a little public confession here. [00:30:00] writing newsletter is such a chore for me. I just don't do it.
Mm-hmm. . And I think there's a, there's an idea of like, I gotta perform right? With my writing. Mm-hmm. , and, and there's then therefore there's such a performance burden on it. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And therefore, I don't, I don't ship because you know of the, the burdens too, too much, too high. Mm-hmm. . But in my mind, what are you, what I'm hearing you say is, Hey, if it performs well, not well, whatever.
Those are just brownie points. Exactly. The fruit, the purpose of the writing, It's in the writing itself. Yes. It's in the excavation. Self excavation. Self-discovery is, is in the, like, um, expressing what your soul wants to express. And that's the fruit, that's the intent. Is that a accurate reflection? Yes.
[00:30:54] Tej: 1000%.
[00:30:56] ck: Mm.
[00:30:57] Tej: I love that. And that to me, I feel like, is [00:31:00] what made the biggest difference in my writing, because I feel like sometimes people can even feel like, I don't wanna write from a pedestal. Right? Like, Hey guys, like this is what I discovered. You know, like, here you go, like take this knowledge, take this value.
It's like, No, I wanna write from the trenches with my feet and the mud with the mirror in front of myself. Mm. So I'm writing to that mirror while my feet are in the mud and my head is in the cloud.
[00:31:24] ck: Say more about that because I, I, let's see, how do I articulate this? The context of newsletter writing specifically, typically is the guru, you know, espousing, wisdom, gems, , they polish for a long time, right?
That kind of tone typically. Right. Uh, versus just, Hey, I'm just being honest by myself in front of a mirror. And then people get you dropped in and listen in to your own confession, your own discovery about yourself. Mm-hmm. . [00:32:00] So, so give a little contrast of how you come to that conclusion of writing it for your own sake, rather than doing a performance or some kind of outcome driven thing.
[00:32:14] Tej: Yeah. So like, for like, a lot of years I worked with like those, um, marketers and those entrepreneurs that had email newsletters that were more like performance driven and more like the pedestal talk, right? And like, one day I remember thinking, I'm like, Yo, this is like, well, everybody in the market is doing this, but like, I'm not even reading these emails.
Like, I don't even wanna read these emails. Like, it's like pointless, like, you know, all this pedestal talk. Like, it's kind of like disrespectful in a way. And I was like disrespectful to. Disrespectful to everybody involved in this situation. Mm. It's disrespectful to the people. When you talk from a pedestal, it's also disrespectful to yourself because you're actually not digging into the deeper layers that will [00:33:00] actually result in growth.
You're just keeping a surface level to maintain pedestal talk. Mm. So for me, I was like, man, like the reason it started for me just writing for myself was because I was like, that's what I wanna read. Like I love the James Altucher style. Like when he's like, Man, like I lost all my money. My wife divorced me.
This is what I'm feeling. . I was in the streets. Somebody spit on me, somebody punched me in the face. . Yeah. And even Gary Halber, like he had a amazing first line that was like so brilliant. He's like, I woke up today and I didn't have to masturbate to get my heart going this morning. Today is gonna be a good day.
And I was like, Wow. People can start with a line like that. Like, Oh my God, this is like some next level writing. And I usually, you think like if you say something like that, people are gonna be like, Oh, who is this weirdo? Why is he talking like that? But I got so hooked onto Gary Halbert's writing because he would talk like that.
He would just say the most rawest of things put in a way that was easily [00:34:00] digestible as we talked about earlier. And I would be mesmerized by the writing. And I was like, This is what I wanna be reading.
[00:34:06] ck: So question. You had that insight that's mesmerizing for. What were the steps for you to implement that?
Did you baby step it or did you say just like, fuck it let's, you know, be as raw as possible, overshare if need be. Like walk us through that idea to actual implementation in your life.
[00:34:29] Tej: Yeah, so like, I wish I could say like, it was like overnight zero to hero, but like I said, I was very scared. .
[00:34:36] ck: I mean, but, but the thing is, you're doing it right.
That's, that's the, like I know you keep referring your past self as a pussy or you know, some kind of, you know, uh, UNC courage person, right? But you are doing it, and to me, you don't need to say any of those things. Mm-hmm. , because that's the way you are living today with boldness, with courage, with willingness to just be [00:35:00] fucking honest and that like all these other, you know, caveats is Yeah.
Unnecessary. I, I really
[00:35:08] Tej: appreciate that. I really appreciate that because I do think I sometimes have a habit of like saying things like that from like the past and kind of just like saying it. But another reason I say it is also because I really believe that none of us are actually. The pussy is like a mask that we wear, that we list society condition onto us.
Yes. Yes. So like when I say that, it's like in one way, like the reason I can just say it is because I know I'm not a pussy, so I just say it. Mm-hmm. , or like the caveat, the deeper meaning is like nobody is a pussy. So if somebody's listening to this, I say a one to two, one to make it relatable if they're feeling like that.
And the second point, which I really value you saying this because the second point can now be expressed, is like, I actually wasn't a coward back then. I was just wearing the mask of a coward that I let other people
[00:35:53] ck: put on. Mm mm Yeah. It it, it's so interesting how [00:36:00] we have these, So one of the, let's see, there's so, so, so much here,
So one of the, one of the, uh, key tenet that I learn from my spiritual practices specifically of a pasana is where not our thoughts, where not our feelings and emotions. Things come and things go just like the ocean. Mm-hmm. . But, you know, we are not like who we are is the secret container of all this content, but we are the, you know, but we are not our thoughts, our emotions.
So, so we could have the idea of like, I'm afraid I'm, you know, pussy or whatever the thing, I'm weak and I'm needy, all these things. But in reality, we're much greater than our thoughts and our emotions. .
[00:36:50] Tej: Absolutely. And that like, that's like, I feel like a whole nother conversation because discovering that, discovering the truth of what we actually are and [00:37:00] like how we're such magnificent and powerful beings is just like, it feels like the greatest cosmic joke in the world.
When you realize how we play ourselves to be and what we actually are. It's like, whoa. Like this is insane. So would
[00:37:14] ck: you say, so you're inspiring me to use newsletter writing as a path to transform this expression of myself, of who I am. Uhhuh . Right. To be more bold, be more raw, and speak from a mirror rather than from a pedestal or a farm.
Mm-hmm. from a student point of view. So anything else? That's that, Uh, sensei you could still on someone who is new on this path of using, you know, online writing as a way to, um, personal and professional transformation. No,
[00:37:49] Tej: no. Sensei talk. I got no sense. They talk . But one point that I did find valuable on my journey was like, I was like, I, I've been like writing, I've been keeping journals and just like mo [00:38:00] overpriced moskin notebooks for a very long time.
Uhhuh and, um, One thing that I had a interesting realization when I first started like tinkering and flirting with this new style of writing was like I would try to write, and it was almost coming out as forced, but when I would like write in my journal with no expectations, no obligations, no even world that I'm writing to, but just within the privacy of my own journal, when I'm just writing to myself, I was like, man, this is way better than the stuff I have on a Google Doc, like this writing that I'm putting in my journal.
Because there's no expectation to perform. I feel like this is gonna sound a little crazy, but I feel like writing and sex are the exact same thing. If somebody comes up to you,
[00:38:43] ck: that's a catchy, uh, headline right there. . Say more about that. .
[00:38:49] Tej: If somebody comes any, I feel like it's true for any type of performance.
If somebody comes up to you and they put a gun to your head and they're like, You have to have the best sex in your life. The entire world is gonna see this. It's being live [00:39:00] streamed to everybody. You cannot fuck up. You got all this pressure on you. You better do good man. You better do good. You're gonna be like, Man, this is like, you know, this is kind of difficult.
But then if you're just like in the flow and things are just happening and then you're having sex, it's like, this is amazing. Like I'm a rock star, right? It's like completely different. It's not a reflection of your skill. It's a reflection of all the extra clouds that are also being filtered into this reality.
So what I realized with respect to writing was I was trying to write, like I had the whole world watching. , like, just like somebody that's trying to have sex with the whole world, watching them, it's very difficult. But when I realized that I'm just writing in my journal, and this is so raw and so beautiful, and from the heart, I'm not trying to impress anybody.
I'm the only one reading this. So I was like, This is how I wanna write. I'm like, let me take stuff from my journal, put it up on Google Doc and just test this. How do the people like it? Do they? And I'm only gonna tell 'em it came from my journal. I'm just gonna test it and just put it out there. And people [00:40:00] are like, Whoa, man.
Like what type A writing is this? This is completely different than what you've been sending me. And I'm like, Whoa, People are actually resonating with this. Like people are really resonating with it. And even with yourself, like it makes me very happy when you're like, Oh, you're exci, you're getting me excited for, um, branching out into the email newsletters because I would love to know, like I would subscribe right now and I would be like, Yo, let's see.
Like, let's see what's, what's up in the world of CK and like what he's going through in real time. Like, Oh, he had made this amazing discovery and on this day he's feeling a certain way. Like that's the beauty of it. Then I get sold not on your writing, not on your subject line, but on you. Now I become a fan of you.
So now when I get an email from you in my inbox, I don't look at the subject line, I look at the from name, from say ck. I'm like, regardless of what he's talking about, I'm opening this and I'm reading it. I'm not in the subject line game anymore. The subject line game is like, when. Prioritize the message or the writing more than the person.
But when [00:41:00] you start writing and you start publishing like you're writing to yourself, then you escape the subject line game and you enter the, Hey, this is my friend. Like, I end every email with your friend because I literally feel like I'm their friend and they're my friend. And when people send me a message in response, they sign off the same way your friend, whatever their name is.
[00:41:22] ck: I love that. Thank you for that. Uh, one of the core qualms or hesitation or questions that I have is I don't know how to make friends with writing. I know how to do that in conversations. I do that, you know, quite okay. I know how to do that in life events. I could do that. Okay. But writing, it's something that I don't know about.
And then, uh, it was a conversation between you and Danny, I believe about he asked you a question about how you cultivate that affinity, that closeness, that intimacy with people that read your [00:42:00] newsletter. And your answer was, instead of focusing on the outside, you focus on who you are. Can you say more about that?
[00:42:10] Tej: absolutely. Shadow Danny too. . So, um, with respect to, um, that I feel like, and I noticed that with my. Writing, I noticed that the greater my relationship with myself became, the greater my relationship with the audience became by default. Mm. And it was like a very accidental discovery because what ended up happening was like, the last two years have been honestly insane.
Like very crazy. From like a development, like an inner development type of process. Like not really much external. It was like very focused internal. And it's been like very rigorous and very painful, and also like very liberating at the same time. And as I was going through this process, What'd
[00:42:57] ck: you do, by the way?
[00:42:59] Tej: Yeah, so like the [00:43:00] last two years I've just been going really intensely with, um, is this school diamond approach. Mm-hmm. and, um, just like working with teachers and like certain retreats and like, just a part of that curriculum. So it's been like the best thing I ever did and like, we can talk about it, but, um, As I was going through it, and I'm still going through it, I would like write, and there was like a couple letters in particular that I wrote when I was like really feeling tapped in as a result of coming out of a certain inquiry session when I felt like I was very deeply connected to myself and my relationship with myself had hit a new level.
And I just felt an inclination to write. And that piece of writing, it wasn't like anything special, it was just like a piece of writing. And I published it and I started getting so many responses more than normal. People were like, Man, I feel like the words have life. And I'm like, The words are alive.
Mm-hmm. like, I'm feeling alive right now. And that's when it hit me. I was like, Whoa. The deeper I go into myself, the deeper I [00:44:00] go and meet other people, the deeper I can build that relationship by just going deep into myself, I go deep into E's self cuz e's self is the same in a way. Like, you know, So the deeper I dive into myself, the deeper I dive into all the selfs that make up all the characters.
[00:44:19] ck: Mm mm Yeah. What, what I'm getting from this is you're sharing the truth of who you are and that truth resonates with anyone that reads your newsletter. And it also reminds me of, again, I'm, I'm paraphrasing what Oprah said. Oprah said something along the line of when you get an aha moment, , it's not because of a new idea that came to you.
It's as if you remember something that's true within you. Right. That's the aha. So your truth is reminding people of what they already know is true. [00:45:00] Mm. And that's why they, it, it resonates so much rather than some marketing tactics or frameworks and things like that.
[00:45:08] Tej: Yeah. That, that like, uh, produces two exciting ideas.
The first was like, I feel like the greatest aha moment in the world is when you remember who you actually are. Mm-hmm. . And it's like, Oh, , this is what I am, this is who I am. That to me is the greatest aha moment in the world for it changes everything going forward. And the second thing that I was gonna say was, I feel like the greatest thing you can do is become a mirror for other peoples to not show how great you are.
That's one reason. I also like to like, say things like, I'm X and Y, Like, this is my background. This is where I came from. Because I don't want people to put me on the pedestal, so I'll just knock myself off the pedestal. Because the greatest purpose, the greatest gift you can give somebody else is to not show how great you are, but to hold up a mirror that reflects back how great they are.[00:46:00]
[00:46:01] ck: Well, uh, you sound like a spiritual teacher in the making.
[00:46:08] Tej: No, my, my worst fear is to become, quote unquote, a spiritual person. .
[00:46:14] ck: Why is that? Actually, it's because is there some negative charges around the word teacher for you? Why? Why, why don't you want to be that? Because, because from my perspective, again, uh, without due respect, right?
From outsider point of view mm-hmm. , you are living your life in the highest way that you know how you're embodying in what's possible. You're sharing the gems that you do in, in a very scalable way. Right? Newsletters, podcast conversations, Right? People are writing back to you like, Hey, this changed my life.
This reminded me of who I am as a powerful being, not just this, you know, past programming, previous programmings. So by [00:47:00] all, you know, if it sounds like a duck, walk like a duck
[00:47:06] Tej: I don't know. Is it a duck? I mean, you can call
[00:47:08] ck: it by other
[00:47:08] Tej: knees, but
Why? Why, why don't you wanna be called a duck? I don't understand.
That's hilarious. I feel like, um, I feel like the real answer is like, I'm scared that it will dilute the actual content.
[00:47:32] ck: Oh, because the, the, the, the, the burden of that connot. Is gonna burden you, your, your, the source of your writing? Somewhat. Yeah.
[00:47:42] Tej: Because I feel like when you, like, um, if I end the emails, what's, obviously I would never do this, it just sounds so arrogant, Right?
But I'm just using it as an example. If I end the emails with your teacher as opposed to your friend now, like, it's nothing to do with other people. This entire game is between me and [00:48:00] myself. Right? So if I start thinking like that, then what's gonna end up happening is I'm gonna start thinking that my writing is coming from me.
My ideas are coming from me. That I'm the special one. That I'm this, that this is me. Like, worship me. But I know that, oh, my ideas that come for me never work. They all failed. They never saw the light of day. So for me, the greatest thing I can do is to open up continuously and deepen into these mysteries, discover what they are, and just be that humble student that's learning.
Because I fuck up every single day. Like the writing may be good, certain days, bad other days, but the rest of my day there's like, you know, it's not all picture perfect. So it's like, I don't want that label. I feel like labels are very limiting. I feel like I can do more by being a student than being a teacher.
[00:48:53] ck: that's what a wisdom teacher would say.
[00:48:58] Tej: So,
[00:48:59] ck: so [00:49:00] I'm gonna bring some martial arts, uh, metaphor here. Okay. When, when. comes up to me and say I'm a master automatically, that that deducts points in my mind. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , because a master would never proclaim them to be masters. Mm-hmm. masters always proclaim that they're students first. Masters, sometimes teachers, sometimes.
Right. So, not to debate on the finer points of this mm-hmm. , I understand what you're saying. And, and all I'm saying is, Hey man, if it walks
[00:49:37] Tej: like a duck, walks like a duck, ,
[00:49:41] ck: there may be something there to embrace it. And, and, and I'm actually double click on this too, cuz I'm speaking to a marketer mm-hmm.
and this is, you are a walking paradox in my mind, right? Mm-hmm. , because the game of marketing is a game of [00:50:00] ego. Mm-hmm. , That's, that's, to me, that's what it is. Right? You're manipulating is a strong word, but you're, you're changing the perception of certain egoic expressions to appeal to what the ego desires.
Right? And the war of spirituality, in my mind is to appeals to the infinite itself, right? Mm-hmm. so it's such that they discover, you know, um, the infinite potentials of a human. So, um, I forgot what was my point of bringing this up? The paradox, right? Yeah. The paradox. So I'm curious to know your perspective, cuz I thought about this question a lot, right?
Being a spiritual teacher, um, it's about embodying what's possible, right? It's more important that this teacher lives the life according to what he or she is teaching, rather than, you know, do what I say, don't do what I do, kind of a thing, right? , [00:51:00] Right. But there's also the game of perception as well.
Mm-hmm. , because when people perceive this teacher has certain gems to help 'em enlighten or achieve the life they want to live, they take their teachings more seriously. Mm-hmm. is it Right? I don't know, but, but it's something that I thought about. So I'm curious to know your perspective on integrating the game of ego ala marketing, also the, not the game, but the pursuit of spirituality.
[00:51:38] Tej: Yeah. I think that's like, honestly such an amazing question because people ask me that like all the time. They're like, Yo, you like write about X, Y, Z and then you write copy that's like selling x, y, Z product and the products are good, right? But like we all know that the products aren't gonna fill that inner hole.
That you're buying the products for, there's something deeper that you have to do. [00:52:00] Right? So like for me, like just honest, like just truthful. I tried just being like, Yo guys, like what you guys are doing, what you think is gonna fill that inner void is not actually gonna do it. Guess how many people listen?
Zero. Right? Even myself, I read all the books, they're like, Yo, um, if you make money, if you get the fancy house, if you live this lifestyle and you don't fix those inner voids, those inner holes, you are gonna be no better. And I'm like, What is this guy talking about? You must like, he doesn't know me. Like I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna be good.
And then guess what happened? I spent from age 14 to age 20 doing all those things, getting all those things, and I was like, Oh shit, that guy was right. So for me, the way I see it is like, absolutely, marketing is exactly what you say it is. But I also think that marketing is the greatest and most powerful tool that we have in this world to getting a message across and reaching multiple, multiple, multiple millions of people in a very easy way that can [00:53:00] actually hit on something deeper.
So when somebody comes to. This is my greatest win in my life, is the people that came to me when they were like 18 and they were 19 and they were 20. And these people wanted to make money. They wanted to make all the money in the world. So I was like, okay, this is where the people are. They wanna make money.
Instead of me trying to put on my guru hat and trying to be like a teacher, I'm just gonna take the L and come across as a marketer on the front end. I can take that. You know, people wanna say like, Yo, you do this and then you do that, it's fine. I'll take that L. So what ended up happening was like I started talking to these people in their language, Yo, you wanna make money?
Oh, you wanna do this? Yo, you wanna write these cards? You go, You wanna do this? Let's do it. Let's do it. It's epic. But in the front end, I would do that. I would do typical marketing talk, but once I had 'em, once I'm on the phone with them, once I'm on the back end, I teach 'em the money, I teach 'em the marketing, I teach 'em the copy, I teach 'em the business, I teach 'em all that.
But I also sprinkle the deeper stuff in Now. Now I got way [00:54:00] more people that otherwise would've never been receptive to this if I led with this on the front end into this funnel. And now these same people that started out when they were 18, 19, 20, now they're 23, they're 24, they're 25, they're 22, and they're like, Bro, you helped me achieve all those egoic desires.
But what you really did for me was open my eyes to this world. And for that, I'm so thankful. So my game. People are chasing and pursuing temporary ws instead of eternal wins because they don't even know eternal wins are possible. So I can stand on the mountain and scream, Hey, the eternal wins is all that matters.
But when you are starving and you're looking on Instagram and all your friends are having the temporary wins, and you think that's the only thing that's important in this game, so I'll come down from the mountain, teach you how to get the temporary wins, but in the process, open your eyes to what actually matters, which is the eternal Ws.[00:55:00]
[00:55:01] ck: Yeah. I love that you meet them where they're at.
[00:55:04] Tej: Yeah, exactly. I love how like, I just went down like a rent and then you just said it perfectly. Meet them where they're at and I'm like, Damn, I should have just said that .
[00:55:14] ck: But your stories have a lot more colors. Right? My, my, my, my job as a podcaster is to summarize Yeah.
What you said. Absolutely. And, and so I was a chief culture officer for a startup of 250 people. Nice. When I left. Yeah. And, uh, and it was a, my own, uh, evolution as a leader, cuz in the beginning we'll try to impose our point of view on our people. Mm-hmm. . And then we realized that that doesn't work cuz no egos like to, you know, being told what to do.
It doesn't matter what your ranks. And then we shifted our positioning to, um, let me empower you, [00:56:00] let me support you in what you want to create. Um, then that actually helped a lot better. So we, you know, part of my biggest learning lessons as a, as a leader is meeting people where they're at rather than trying to break through their barriers by out arguing them.
Because that didn't, that never worked.
[00:56:19] Tej: Exactly. And I feel like another discovery that I had that actually made this easier was, I feel like even if people are chasing egoic desires, what they think they're gonna get from that is actually reunion with their true nature. It's just mis projected, right? So they actually love the truth very deeply, very, very deeply.
They're in love with this truth of what they are and they don't even know it. They're just looking outside themselves and they think XYZ is gonna give it. I know business people that work. Ridiculous hours every single week. And I'm like, this person is so in love with [00:57:00] truth, but he's just mis projecting it outside.
Like he's so fired up. His will is insane, but he's just mis projecting it. So when people get blinded by egoic desires, I don't see people getting blinded by egoic desires. I see love that is so strong for reconnecting with what they are. Because in childhood we had the power, we had the joy, we had the love, we had the expansion, we had all these qualities, and then we got disconnected.
And now we think the business is gonna give us that. But really we think the relationship is gonna give us that. We think that trip to wherever is gonna give us that. So we're not interested in the money in the digits on a screen for the digits on a screen. We're interested in the power the money is gonna give us.
And the power is that indication is a quality of our royal nature. That's what we want. So I see people like, man, everybody is spiritual. That's one reason I don't even like the word. It's like, what does that word even mean? We're all human. We're just [00:58:00] living. Spiritual, to me is just living your life as you truly are as an expression of those qualities.
So I feel like everybody is spiritual, but only some people know.
[00:58:10] ck: Hmm. Yeah. That's beautifully said. I think you just taught me something not, I think I know, because what you relate to people's egoic pursuits. as this person loves life, this person has such strong will, they wanted to, uh, you know, create a life they love is just misdirected.
Mm-hmm. is just misguided. Mm-hmm. . And that actually takes all the judgment out of it. Right. Right. Because spiritual people, Right. This spiritual ego is strong. Like, Hey, you shouldn't pursue money, fame, power, sex, whatever the thing. Mm-hmm. . Right. There's a should. There's a judgment there. Right. You know, moral superiority.
But the way you articulate it is, no, this person loves life. They just, you know, misdirecting their energy [00:59:00] towards something that ultimately won't give them the satisfaction they seek.
[00:59:04] Tej: Yeah. And like, it, it's, it's so crazy because like, this is kind of personal, but like, um, I have like a certain relative Right.
Who's like very addicted to like hardcore drugs. Right. And he's been for like a very long time and like everybody that we know has tried all the remedies to get him to stop and he stops periodically and then he goes back. Right. And one day I was sitting. Not on my high horse, but on the ground. And I was sitting there and I was like, Man, he has to be getting something from these drugs.
Mm-hmm. , what is he actually getting from these drugs? Right? And I'm like, Well, when he is not on the drugs, he's like constantly surrounded by people that are bitching, moaning, complaining. He's constantly in the past, he's constantly thinking about all the time he wasted. He's thinking about the future.
He's stressed, he's, I alienated his life's not working out for himself. But when he's on the drugs, he's in a state of bliss. He, he's in [01:00:00] a state of oneness. He's in a state of expansion. He's in a state of power. He's in a state of something that's, although artificial closer to the truth of what he actually is.
Some like, the reason he keeps going back is because he's seeking Reunion with what he actually is. The drug is just mimicking that. So I'm like, this guy is more spiritual than all my other relatives, including me, that is trying to talk some sense into him because they don't know what he's after. Even when you go to a concert, when you have sex, when you listen to music, when you're listening to a podcast like this, the reason you love it is because you can turn your mind off.
You can be fully in the present and just live life with that orientation. So I feel like even. A relative who's like really into hardcore drugs. He's actually, his love for truth of discovery is so much there. It's so overpowering, but it's just mis projected. You know, you met the wrong people at the wrong time that got him hooked onto certain substances and now [01:01:00] that's the way his life went.
But I feel like we all have this burning love to reunite with what we are. Whether it's the entrepreneur that ended up making billions that's very strong love, or the person that ruined their life by getting addicted to hardcore drugs.
[01:01:15] ck: Let me actually push back a little bit cuz I, There's some nuance here.
I wanted to tease out the, when it comes to, let's see, how do I say this? There's an operative word. I choose to do something, um, versus my body is addicted to some physiological response. Right, Right, right. So, so I agree the yearning that like the source of doing certain addictions or certain spiritual practices, the source is the yearning of truth union oneness.
Mm-hmm. agree. But, but I think, um, the key [01:02:00] distinction between the two is the operative word, choose. Am I choosing to honor my commitments or am I just, you know, letting my addiction to drive me to do things that I don't want to do, but I kept doing anyway. So I, I in my mind that there's a key distinction there.
Anything you wanna say there? No, I,
[01:02:23] Tej: I absolutely agree with you. I think, um, yeah, that's like the, that's the critical distinction and I'm happy you pointed that out.
[01:02:31] ck: Yeah. So one thing that's really clear to me is your personal practice of or desire, rather of un programming previous programmings that you have inherited from parenting, schooling, society, you know, social circles, so on and so on.
Or, or intergenerational programmings, let's say, right? Mm-hmm. . So what are some of the ways that you have [01:03:00] to identify programmings that's, you know, that don't serve you anymore?
[01:03:10] Tej: This is a good question. I feel like, um, I feel like when it comes to programming, whenever you leave the present moment, you're giving into programming, right?
It could be good programming or it could be bad programming, but programming is still programming. And I feel like the greatest gifts that you have only come an increased magnitude through you when you're being fully here in the moment. So for me, like I went on a, I remember like when I first started discovering all this, I was like obsessed with positively programming myself.
Mm-hmm. , right? I became one of those man, I was like, no negativity, no negative thoughts, no complaining, no moaning, no none of this, right? It's just strictly positivity. And then, um, good vibes only. Good vibes only ver . Mm-hmm. . I went on that, [01:04:00] that's feel for a very long time. And it was cool. It's better than the alternative, but I was like, man, like positive programming is still po is still programming.
Like, who am I without the programming? Who was I before I realized my name was my name? Just a minute before my mom told me, this is your name. And I identified as that. Who was I then mm-hmm. , Who was I before I had these ideas? Who was I before I, you know, chose my career, chose my, developed my skills. Who was I that.
Topic always fascinates me because I feel like everything in this life is gonna pass me by and it's gonna be over one day. But what's not gonna pass me by is the part that was never programmed, right? The truest, deepest part of me that has been here all these years silently watching me as I go along, my adventures is always gonna be here.
I remember watching uh, Owen Cook video one day and he was like, Hey, you know, like certain people [01:05:00] say you're gonna go to heaven after, but I have a question. Which part of you is gonna go to heaven? Is it the one that's always bitching about your job? Is it the one that's jealous? Is that the one that's trying to make this money?
Which part of you is gonna go to heaven? He's like, If you never get in touch with the part that is unprogrammed, then how do you even know who you are? You can be in heaven and you wouldn't even know it's you. You're gonna be like, Who is this person? Because which part would make it to heaven? Would those parts make it or would the real part in you make it?
So my entire quest is like this life is beautiful. Everything we can do, everything we can create is epic. But what I wanna do is not get lost in the sauce because I did get lost in the sauce and I realized, like I had a couple like experiences where I thought I was about to die and I was like, Whoa.
Like everything just vanished. And like I didn't develop the real part of me. Like I was so heartbroken. I used to think my greatest regret would be dying without achieving my dreams, but I had achieved the dreams. And it didn't mean shit. I was still full of [01:06:00] so much regret because I had spent no time with this unprogrammed part, with this real part.
So my entire quest after that experience became to undo the positive programming as well. Then have to feel so much pain that I was suppressing by covering it up with positive programming. All the trauma, all the childhood stuff, all the stuff nobody wants to go through, had to face that. That's what I was alluding to with the last previous couple of years.
Like really just diving deep into all that. Not fun. But as a result of going through that, then you start experiencing that authentic ground of being, which everything arises from. And that's when you start realizing who you are and then you're like, Whoa. Now my life can be an expression of this real part, and I can build the business.
I can go on podcasts, I can write, I can do all this, but I can do it as the real me, which is the most important. Everything else comes, it goes. But what's real stays, everything else burns the weight. So my entire [01:07:00] premise with the programming was to let. Of all the programming, actualize and remember, that's such a beautiful word.
Remember the real, Because once it starts coming online again, you're like, I remember this. This is faintly familiar. I remember being like this before the programming took a hold of me and living your life as an expression of that, and then bringing that into the world and letting that Write your email newsletter, letting that write
Let, we're letting that talk. I am. Nice callback. Thank you. . So that's my entire spiel on programming. I feel like it's essential.
[01:07:37] ck: Yeah. So, so a couple of points that you mention, uh, um, I don't, do you know the, the word some scar? Um, have you come across that word? Yeah. So, so yeah. Some sca, um, I think is Buddhism.
Anyways, it's, it's, it's essentially the negative [01:08:00] charges and the positive charges that ultimately lead to suffering. Mm-hmm. , anything that we do that basically tie us up in knots mm-hmm. , Right. Whether it's, you know, something that we really desire, as you mentioned earlier, the positive vibes only goals we wanted to have, or the negative things we wanna stay away from.
Right. Avers in it in an, until we can untie those knots, they all clumps up more and more and more and more at some. Um, it's gonna surface up as, uh, some kind of symptoms. Mm-hmm. , you know, physical symptoms, emotional symptoms, you know, mental symptoms and so on and so forth. So, uh, a huge part of, uh, what we're discussing here is the un programming, the, um, the untying of these knots.
The, they're letting go of these negative or positive charges, so then we can free up this internal energy [01:09:00] that's always there. Right. Kind of like a Marie, uh, Maria Condo, uh, she wrote a book called The, the Magic of Tidying Up. Essentially, it's a very spiritual book, but she talked about it more in the physical clutter level.
Mm-hmm. , not the, not the mental or emotional level mm-hmm. , but imagine if you just declutter your mind, the way that you declutter your garage, how much more spaciousness you can free up to create. Now you have extra energy. Yeah. To create something new that's meaningful, that's joyous for your life.
[01:09:38] Tej: Absolutely. And it's so beautiful when you like, have, like, I've only had like very teeny tiny glimpses, right? Where it feels like I'm a open window and the breeze is just lovingly flowing through me, and it feels so touching and so empowering, but it can never feel that open window, that breeze when I had all the clutter.
[01:10:00] ck: And, and we didn't say this, but I want to double click with you here, This experience of joy. You mentioned it in some other podcast. I want to double click on that here. It's always there. Mm-hmm. , it's not something that we need to generate. Right. It's, which is distinct from happiness. Mm-hmm.
happiness ties to some event, some reason, some cause Right, right. I'm happy because I ate a piece of chocolate, whatever the thing. Right. Joy is untether to a cause. Joys is ever present. It's always there. Yes. Now we experience joy when we don't, we're not distracted by the clutter, by the noise, by the distractions.
Mm-hmm. , that's within the content of our mind. I'm curious to know your thoughts, you know, what's the distinction between happiness and joy?
[01:10:55] Tej: Yeah. I think, I think you nailed it with the, with the distinction. I like [01:11:00] personally, um, have never really been interested in happiness because I don't even know what it is.
Right. I feel like, um, I don't even, I'm not even concerned with happiness, but I feel like joy is like, I feel like there are certain qualities that are intrinsic to consciousness, and it doesn't matter if you're dying and you're on your death bed or if you just have the happiest day of your life. You have the same access to these qualities and these qualities is where that trust in life comes from.
Because you realize that whether I'm on top of the world or at the bottom of the ocean, I can still feel joyful. I can still feel alive, I can still feel strong and powerful and confident, and compassionate and loving and kind. These qualities are intrinsic to the consciousness that all of us are, and I feel like when we get rid of the clutter, we start seeing that we're like a water fountain from that ground of being.
All these qualities are flowing and it's like [01:12:00] there's no scarcity here. It's true abundance. It's raining joy 24 7, but we're so condition. Joy, I feel like is like a glorious sun. That si shines light on every single person. But we get conditioned to put a hat on and sunglasses and we're like, Where's the joy?
There's no joy here. But we don't realize that we put on glasses and a hat to block out the sun, and that's our programming. The glasses and the hat become our programming. The sun is still there. Sun is still shining. It's shining on you. If you're the greatest being in the world or the worst being in the world, whatever, the sun is shining, but the conditioning is the glasses and the hat that we put on.
So when you get rid of the hat, when you take off your glasses, it's like coming alive for the first time to reality. You're like, What? Why? Nobody tell me this sun was always shining. And that's when you're like, Whoa. Like these qualities are always here. And that to me has been like one of the greatest discoveries of my life because I used to rob myself [01:13:00] of the joy, because that's how you get conditioned, right?
You're like, I'm having a bad day now. I can't feel joy. Now. What? Why? Why should I smile now? Like this guy did this to me. Mm-hmm. , I lost this much money. Why should I feel joy now? We get trained to make it conditional, where like if things are going good, that's my permission slip. Oh, take off the hat for a little while.
Now take off the hat. Oh, there's this sun. I'm feeling joyful now. Something goes bad the next day. Oh, put back the hat on. Put the glasses back on. Oh, there's the conditioning. Now. I can't feel joy no more. Seeing that pattern in myself and how I would do that to. As a result of how I got conditioned with such a huge aha moment because I was like, Whoa.
Like this is how they trained me to play myself.
[01:13:42] ck: Mm. I love that. I'm talking to a very skillful copywriter. You're just painting this very vivid imageries that this sunglasses the sun, like is so beautiful and the way, and also because you're trained, you are just allowing yourself to flow. Coming out with these things [01:14:00] without editing it, It's a really beautiful thing to watch.
[01:14:03] Tej: Thank you, brother. I
[01:14:04] ck: really appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. Teach me
[01:14:12] Tej: But, but we're, I really hope you launched this email newsletter today. I wanna be the number one, I wanna be the first subscriber to this.
[01:14:19] ck: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm being facetious, right? So I'm being a student, but also a teacher at the same time. Right. Because in my mind, when we teach, Hey, guess what we're learning too.
When we learn, guess what? We have the opportunity to teach as well. So I'm being facetious about the Yes. Um, the student teacher relationship kind of a thing. But in reality, I think that's what we're doing, bringing back the comet, uh, metaphor. Everything we do, everything we say, anything that we. Artifacts that we leave trailing behind us, and [01:15:00] that that trail would be the sole signature of, Hey, Page, DOA was here.
Hey, CK Lynn was here as a temporary eco expression of the infinite whole mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. the collective
[01:15:13] Tej: whole. So I'm curious, like on your end, like just going off of what you said, like with that, um, how this is an expression of the internet, Like how has that impacted you and where, like your approach to podcasting and like speaking like this and like a public setting, like bringing that aspect into it?
[01:15:34] ck: Yeah. I would say it's definitely a journey. Um, one of the things that I teach is our core wounds is the source of our superpower, and it's also the source of the gift we get to give away as a dmic contribution to humanity, right? Mm-hmm. , So that's like multiple layer there. Mm-hmm. , for the longest time, I had a hard time even expressing myself [01:16:00] because I was so bogged down by tradition parenting education to do the right thing.
There is like a, a, you know, quote unquote, the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. . So I was so timid to even expressing my desire. So fast forward to the start of this podcast, this podcast as being a transformative path. For me to exercise my voice mm-hmm. to interact with, you know, fellow seekers, finders, creators about the secrets of life.
Right. What does it actually take to live a purpose driven life, especially as a creator? And that gave me the doil practices that I needed to come out of my shell a little bit at the time. Right. You know, guests like you and say, Hey, that was cool, that was great. I love it. Like, okay, great. You know, lemme do more of [01:17:00] that.
Right? So allows me to just, uh, more boldly and courageously create these artifacts, call the signature of C CA's life.
[01:17:12] Tej: That that's beautiful man. And like a testament to that is like, um, I remember cuz like Danny reached out to me after he was on your show and he was like, and Danny goes on like a lot of podcasts, he crushes it and he was like, Yo, like, um, I think it would be epic if you, you know, came on his podcast.
It would be so good. And then he is like, I just wanted ask you before I introduced you guys. And I was like, Yeah, let's do it. Then I went on, um, your profile and then I started watching the video with you and Danny and I was so touched by. Your level of, like Danny said, that piece and presence that you were emanating and just the ground in the space that you were holding.
I know you were talking about that with Danny's podcast, but also with you. Like, I felt like you were just doing such a remarkable job. And it's funny how we're talking about like the teacher student thing because I was like, Man, I wanna come on [01:18:00] your podcast to learn as the student. Like just experience it for myself from you, the teacher.
Like how you do this and like the level of presence and peace you embody that allows people to just forget that they're on a podcast. I think that's the greatest gift that people like you and Danny actually do, where they make you forget, you're talking on a podcast, right? And they make you feel like you're in the same room together and you're just vibing out with a friend and you're just having these conversations that are very meaningful to the both of you.
And I just wanted to, um, let you know that as well.
[01:18:35] ck: Hmm. Thank you for that. That means a lot to me. Um, especially, you know, me bring back earlier point that I just made about our core wounds to the superpower. We get to, you know, develop based on our core wounds to now the gift we get to give away. , I was the furthest person who was grounded, who is present , who [01:19:00] is, Cause my, I was so into my, my mind.
Mm-hmm. , my, I was the person who's, whose thoughts is who he is, who's emotions is who he is. So I was so enamored, so addicted to the, the roller coasters, the, the coming and going of the thoughts. I was so addicted to thought . So, so, so the fact that people now commented on how present I am with someone , how, how, um, how grounded I am.
It's such a like, uh, not, I'm not dismissing, um, the younger CK mm-hmm. . Cause he did whatever he did to develop these capacity. Mm-hmm. . But, but I want to emphasize this. If the younger CK could have done that, anyone could have done
[01:19:50] Tej: that . Seriously,
[01:19:53] ck: Because I was just so not present. So not present. So I really, really appreciated.
[01:19:59] Tej: [01:20:00] Yeah. Mm-hmm. , Go on. Sorry. And, and
[01:20:02] ck: then the gift, now I now get to give to the younger cks of the world is, hey, your whole perfect, complete as you are, you're not broken. And that you have access to this power that's within you. and the answer you seek is within you, not outside of you. Mm-hmm. . So, so that's the container I get to hold with my coaching clients, with my students, with my podcast guests, such that they can truly be celebrated for the essence they bring forth the world that would never, ever exist in all of humanity.
[01:20:47] Tej: Wow. Man. That, that was beautiful. Real. That was brilliant. And like, I like to take notes and like that, that thing about, um, wounds into superpowers, like that's a reflection of something deeper there. So I'm just curious, like, [01:21:00] how is it like for you to like hear that now, Right? Like, you know, how you're expressing your, like the younger CK was like the complete opposite of being present, the complete opposite of being grounded.
So I think it's important to, I love how you say double click. I'm gonna use that. That's such aru way. Just be like, hold up, let me double click. Or . It's really, I noticed that with the, the first podcast that I was listening to. I was like, this is epic. Like this is so good. But anyways, I wanna double click onto that because I feel like it's like such a important moment to acknowledge coming full circle and like just celebrating that.
Right? So like, how is it for you? Realize that like to even just receive like certain compliments on your level of presence and groundedness while also knowing the journey that you went on and where you started. Because I only see you right now. I don't see the young ck Right. But you know, the young CK you lived as the young CK and [01:22:00] you've gone full circle.
So how is it like to like hear that now while also having that in your awareness as well? Yeah.
[01:22:09] ck: So it's easy for me to take on an ego trip of like, Oh, you know, I did so much. Look at how much I show up. Right? So easy to go down that path. But, but what I'll say is, is is this, what's present for me is I, as you mentioned earlier, we're just vessels.
The way I see my life, I'm just a vessel to allowing the divine flowing through me. Mm-hmm. and I'm doing what I could, you know, putting the effort to do the work to allow this channel to open more without friction, Right. More streamlined, such that I can, you know, contribute to the younger cks or whoever that resonates with my signature, you know, uh, resonance.
So then they, they could, um, bypass, [01:23:00] maybe it, bypass is not the word may, uh, you know, not to dwelling their suffer. To, to, to, to, to actually create the life that they love without the, the, the side steps, the, um, the painful suffering that I had to go through because it was completely unnecessary. Mm-hmm.
[01:23:20] Tej: that's the funny part, right? Like when you, when you realize that like, even like when I was talking more earlier of like wearing the mask of the coward and then coming full circle and being more bold and more courageous, like seeing and experiencing that and realizing that you could, that wearing that mask and going on all those side trips and doing all this thing is so unnecessary because you were never that mask.
[01:23:42] ck: Yeah. Huge. But, but it's one of those things, right? Cuz as, um, as a, as a teacher, as a student, as a fellow traveler, I do wonder, could the younger suitcase access that infinite potential [01:24:00] without the suffering? Mm-hmm. , I wonder, right? Because I did what I had to do in order to grow into the person that I am, I wouldn't change a thing of everything that has happened.
Mm-hmm. , you know, good things or bad things or whatever. Unfortunate things in my life. But I do wonder, right? Could anyone help prevent suffering unnecessary suffering by these teachings and these artifacts? What do you
[01:24:32] Tej: think? I think they're such a great. Great question. I feel like it's like, um, when it comes to these teachings, I think there's like two main drivers.
The first is like suffering where it's like you're just being pushed against the wall and now you literally have to figure it out or else life is not looking too good. And the second is like that insatiable curiosity where life could be good. Like life could be pretty good, but you just have this flame [01:25:00] inside you of curiosity of just wanting to know, just wanting to discover, you know, just pushing you.
And I feel like it's like a combination of the two, because even, um, when I was talking to somebody else, a friend, and like we were talking about, and he's like into a lot of this material as well, with respect to like non-duality teachings, Right. And he's like a lot of the people that come, Andre, Yeah.
Andre, Yeah. Yeah. On, on the last podcast, new podcast, episode four, . Yes. That's the one. And he was just like, like curiosity was the driver. Like he was in really suffering. And like, I feel like, um, I say kind of similar, like obviously there's like suffering, There's, there's real suffering that comes from that disconnection that we're not even conscious.
So I feel like the suffering is actually always there and it's manifesting. It can maybe even manifest as curiosity as joy. But like even for me, Oh
[01:25:53] ck: wait, wait. Back up one sentence. Say, say that one more time. That was an interesting sentence you just said. Why did you say that? I
[01:25:59] Tej: [01:26:00] said that because, like, honestly just now, like the reason I love this conversation is cuz it's allowing me to like learn in real time.
Cuz I used to think that my curiosity was driving me to, um, discover this. But through the last couple of years, I've started to feel the pain that came from that disconnection that is actually deeper level than my surface level curiosity. So I felt like the pain and the suffering that I was unconscious of was actually manifesting as this curiosity to figure things out because I was actually not capable of feeling that pain.
[01:26:34] ck: Interesting. Okay. So let's, let's inquire about this a bit. I don't have an answer here. Let me just proclaim that right now. Whoever. Okay. So in my mind I'm thinking of this as, um, I guess concentric circle, right? There's this deeper yearning of union, you, we alluded to earlier mm-hmm. . And, and at the superficial level, it's curiosity, it's [01:27:00] interest, it's passion, right?
So you keep pulling the thread. It's, it's gonna help you answer some of these questions. However, this yearning could easily transmute itself into suffer. You know what I mean? So, so, so at, at the core of it is, in my mind, important for us to keep it pure rather than being attached. Cuz when it becomes suffering is when we are attached to, I gotta find an answer.
Right? Or else, Right. Life stopped being meaningful. Mm-hmm. , uh, I don't know if what I'm saying is landing at all, but in my mind that's the key difference of this yearning, this, this desire, strong desire of union, you know, spiritual union and then versus this attachment to I got a arrive to some outcome of enlightenment or whatever.
[01:27:58] Tej: Yes, Yes. [01:28:00] I, I agree 1000%. I feel like it's like so interesting because, so like, even with just like, um, I find it like very worthwhile to like, sometimes even question like with, uh, perspective curiosity. Like why I was really drawn to certain things, right? Because even with my own journey, I was like, um, I had an inquiry on this where I was always drawn towards this notion of freedom and I didn't even know what freedom was.
But something, there was an inkling here, like something deep that was kind of alluding to the fact that there's a lot more to us and a lot more to life than what we normally perceive or take to be. And this inkling, this desire, this longing for this deeper, truer reality initially manifested as business.
Cuz that's all I knew, right? That's all I knew. [01:29:00] I looked out into society, I was like, who has freedom? And at that time my idea of freedom was time freedom and financial freedom. That's all I knew. Freedom to be. Mm-hmm. . And then I was like, okay, so this original inkling, this longing that was pure, it got diluted through my conditioning and it came out the other side as business success.
Then I spent 10 plus years trying to get that and getting that. And then I got that and then I'm like, Wait a minute, this doesn't feel any different. I'm in this place, but I still feel like the same old. Something's wrong here, . And then, um, as I started to again clear that internal garage of all the cluttering of all the programming and there's a lot of it and a lot of the conditioning and a lot that still plagues me.
Like to this day I started seeing that freedom manifest more in its purity and it's pure form without the [01:30:00] conditioning, without the veils. And then I was like, Oh, this is what freedom feels like. It's independent of all this, and this is a more accurate representation. But the reason I bring this up is because I got tricked through my conditioning for so long.
I diluted certain truer, primal baseline drivers and I interpreted them through my filters of conditioning where when they came across the other side, it was completely different than the original driver. But it was all needed. It was all part of the story. It was all part of the journey. So,
[01:30:38] ck: question for you.
Do you feel like that was the necessary steps of your own journey versus skipping steps of material time, freedom, money freedom. Just skipping that to directly to the inner freedom that you experience. Now,
[01:30:58] Tej: I think most [01:31:00] people, I think if people are, and there's a lot of people like this that can skip the steps, but personally, that can or cannot, that can skip that step where they can just see through it.
But me personally, I wasn't developed, right? I was very like blinded by the shiny objects. So even if you gave me a little bit of that inner freedom, I would be like, This is amazing, but I still need that money. I still need that business. I still need this. Right? So I needed to go through that entire process for myself to prove to myself that this wasn't actually what I was after.
Nobody could do it for me because I wasn't developed. I had to go through that process myself. Other people, they just see through it. They're like, What do you think was gonna happen? It's just digits on a screen. You thought you were gonna feel almighty powerful? They're like, That's not what's gonna happen.
But personally, I would never believe them. And that's why I have sympathy and compassion for the people that are very, that come to me when they're like 18, 19, and they're like, Yo, I wanna do X, Y, Z, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's why I feel [01:32:00] like there's so much love that they actually have for the truth, and it's maybe part of their process to go through that.
So I'm like, make all your dreams come true as quickly as possible so you can realize it's not it, and then your real life can begin.
[01:32:13] ck: Mm. Right. That Jim Carey quote. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He, I wishes that everyone can have their dream come true. So then you know that it's not, uh, it's not the external cause it's gonna give you the, the sign
[01:32:28] Tej: you seek.
Exactly. So I think like, even like looping back to the marketing thing, I think even if your marketing is helping people achieve their egoic desires, it can be a good, in the overall sense that it help them achieve those desires now as opposed to 30 years from now, do it quicker so they can maybe wake up faster if that's what's in the cards.
And it doesn't have to be like, I feel like there's also no, like right or wrong answer here. Like, you know, everybody has to do this. It's just like, it is what it is. I feel like
[01:32:58] ck: I, you probably have touched upon [01:33:00] this already, um, but I won't, since we're talking about marketing, let's double click on that.
When I read the newsletter that you put out versus your marketing copy, it's like two different people. Yeah. Right. So, and, and, and I get that that's just two aspects of you. That's not you being paradoxical or conflicting or anything. Just two aspects of you, You know, one is a marketer, one is a spiritual practitioner, Right?
Slash teacher, hint, hint, uh, , uh, how do you reconcile the, the different voices that you have in doing different.
[01:33:40] Tej: Yeah. The way I reconcile it is like I feel like all of life is a stage and we are all actors. Mm-hmm. , right? And we all play a certain role while we're on the stage of life. Mm-hmm. , but also we can take that mask off every now and then and just vibe as what we truly are.
So the way I like to wear the mask is consciously, [01:34:00] before I was wearing the mask very unconsciously and I thought the mask was who I am. Mm-hmm. . But now the way I like to go about it is like, I think it's epic. Like, you know, being a marketer and like learning and like creating businesses and products and putting it out there and helping people.
I think it's cool. I think it's nothing wrong with it. I feel like sometimes my spiritual super ego can act up and like, Yo, what are you doing? What are you doing? Like, start judging me for it, but I'll just tell it to F off. Right. . Because , I feel . So like I feel like I notice it too in my writing. Like sometimes I feel like I put on more of the marketing hat, Right.
Because I need to, It's a part of the greater good. I feel like sometimes I have to put on that mask to meet people that will only resonate with that mask. I can't just hit 'em with the mask off, mask off content. They're gonna be like, What is this? Like so many people hit me up and they're like, I originally came to the email list because of copywriting, but I stayed for the spiritual stuff.
Hmm. And that to me is like how I reconcile it. So I had to [01:35:00] meet them where they are by putting on the. But then when they subscribe to the list and you know, I like slowly eased into it, then I could take off the mask. And then that's when,
[01:35:10] ck: when you say, when you say slowly ease off, like again, I'm trying to learn how do you do this in a seamless way?
Cuz let's see a, a core part of my intention is meet people where they're at. Mm-hmm. . But since email subscribers are faceless mm-hmm. , I can have a conversation with them. I'm just guessing , Right? Wherever they are, based on open raise and you know, whether or not they reply and so forth. So when you say ease in and you say a little bit more about how do you meet them, where they're at?
Cause you don't, you know, they, you're not talking to them effectively. How do you, how do you know?
[01:35:53] Tej: Right. So like, um, like a practical example of this would be like the main people that [01:36:00] join the email list come from Twitter and more specifically like money Twitter, right? Mm-hmm. . So like money, Twitter is epic, but like money, Twitter, a person is in a certain state of mind where they're thinking the maxing their money, their health and their relationships, which is great.
Everybody should do it, right? That's the mindset they're in. So on the front end, if I know I'm in this market, I've done it and I've seen the results, they're not pretty. Like when, if I'm on the front end and I'm pushing certain message, I'm not putting on the mask of the marketer. Then the amount of people that subscribe are very few and far in between.
So what I do is on the front end, I appeal to those desires. I'm like, Hey, like here's how I made $30,000 in like X day. Like here it is and like, here's how I did this, here's how I did that. Here's how I ended apprenticeship. This is what happened. I create the content for them on the front end to then be like, Hey, let me check this guy's email newsletter because they're interested in the copy and that's what they're already interested in.
[01:37:00] Then they subscribe. Then I hit them with the real stuff and if they resonate then they stay for the long term. Like I had people that have subscribed since like 2018 and they like every single email since 2022. But if I was only talking about copywriting, they would've been long gone by now.
[01:37:16] ck: Mm, Got it.
Um, have you ever read, um, stages of um, spiritual development, you know, books like Spiral Dynamics, Cosmic Spirituality, things like that?
[01:37:32] Tej: No, I haven't spread those.
[01:37:34] ck: Yeah. I think you might be interested in that. Dump by inspire Dyna Dynamics by dump back.
[01:37:41] Tej: Yeah. Thank you for that. I just, I just made a note.
[01:37:47] ck: I think you enjoy it.
Uh, specifically looking to stage orange to stage green, and then for those who are listening, um, here's a, you know, TLDR version of what that book is about. And [01:38:00] basically it's talking about there are different stages of consciousness that one goes through. And also that's on the micro level. On the macro level, society will go through that as well, you know, nations, and, you know, earth is a whole, humanity is a whole different stages, right?
So it's fractal at stage orange. It's the entrepreneurial stage that's all about going after it, right? Whatever desire, material desire, uh, you get it. And at the stage, green level is about the collective consciousness. It's about, um, thinking of the whole right, the entire earth rather than just what I want individually.
So I'm mentioning this book and also these two stages specifically, is you are effectively taking them through the stage of from orange degree. That's what it sounds like.
[01:38:52] Tej: Mm. That's really fascinating. I'm, I'm very curious about this. I underlined it twice now, so I'll definitely be checking [01:39:00] it. Cool.
[01:39:02] ck: One thing that's, um, really obvious to me, Paige, You.
So one distinction that I share on this podcast a lot is that inside our approach to life mm-hmm. versus an outside in approach to life. And the two differences are inside out is, let me start by uncovering the, and operating from the essence of who I am. Mm-hmm. , and then like, so being first and then do the actions based on this way of being, and then I'll have the result that I desire, right?
Mm-hmm. , that's the inside our approach. The outside in approach would be what other people are doing, what this market is doing, and then what's the best strategy? And then, you know, based on market desire, then, then I'll match up, you know, what I want to do. So outside in versus inside out, who you are. Me, you live very much an [01:40:00] inside out, uh, way of living.
And also how you conduct your business, how you express yourself and you say a little bit more about the inside out approach versus the outside in approach based on this.
[01:40:15] Tej: In person. Absolutely. I feel like, um, from like, uh, a large period in my life, like 14 to 20, it was more outside in, right? Cause that's like what I thought was the only way.
And then, um, like I alluded to that experience where I had, where I was like, Whoa, like none of this is actually gonna go with me. And then that kind of triggered this inside out, experie out, inside, outside approach. Because I realized, and like this is my personal perspective, is like the purpose for me to be here is to become a greater being, right?
And every experience that I go through, whether I'm on a podcast right now, whether I'm sweeping the floor, whether I'm meditating, whether [01:41:00] I'm eating steak, whether I'm building a business, the purpose of all those activities is to assist me in becoming a greater being. The being is the most important part here.
It's not to build a business. That's the byproduct of the being. The being is what's gonna mature and grow and evolve as a result of all the challenges and problems and things that I go through. That's what I'm developing here. The money is the byproduct. The followers are a byproduct. It's my being that is the most precious thing that is here, right?
So with that approach, I'm like, that's. That's the smartest way to do it. Because at my moment of death, I believe that I cannot take anything with me but my being. And if that being has evolved and has grown through life, then that was the goal that I was here to collect. But if I approach life from the outside in approach, I don't even care about my being.
I'm like, Give me the money. Gimme the followers, gimme the girls, gimme this, gimme that. My being isn't even there. It's not even [01:42:00] present. I'm the mechanical man. I'm the byproduct of society and that can't even grow cuz it's just an image. It's not even real. So if I disconnect from the being and I take the outside in approach, then I really screw myself because I go through my entire life without growing and nurturing this being.
So my viewpoint is like, I can have it all. I can have the business, I can have the success, but what's more important is the being. I wanna develop that and everything else is the byproducts. So to me it's the most logical and smartest decision. And also it results in more success. It results in more impact, It results in more of what even the ego wants.
So it's like a win, win, win on all levels. So that's the way I personally think about it.
[01:42:47] ck: I love that. Such a beautiful articulation. It reminds me of how I used to play at the monopoly, uh, the game Monopoly. Mm-hmm. Uh, [01:43:00] at your earlier stages of my life, not proud to say this, but it was all about winning, right?
Mm-hmm. . So I wanted to have the most monopoly money as possible and most property as possible. It doesn't matter how I get it, right. Cheating or anything, right? That was the name of the game. It doesn't matter. So I would grind it out and I forget that the point of the game is to have fun with those that you play the game with
It's not about collecting monopoly money, ,
[01:43:30] Tej: because
[01:43:30] ck: monopoly money doesn't matter anyway. So, so, you know, doing a parallel comparison to the story that you just share all those things, the material, well, the, the awards and all those things, they're monopoly money, right? In the spiritual sense, right? When you die, you're not gonna take it with you, right?
So, so what is the point of the game? You know, for me it is to hone my way of being. It is to live my life, [01:44:00] um, guided by my purpose, my inner joy, right? Mm-hmm. . So that, that is the point. And now, you know, yes, I do want the monopoly money as well, you know? Mm-hmm. , but that, because that's part of the game, right?
Exactly. Part of the game isn't just ladi da and have fun, and then not, not playing the game, but part of the game is to achieve whatever ideas we wanna manifest in the world. Exactly. I really appreciate that how you said it,
[01:44:28] Tej: that No, the way you said it was beautiful. That was epic. The monopoly analogy was so bang on, because I feel like that's a very good point that you made towards the end when you're like, I want the monopoly money because it's not just, oh, la la la, right?
Like, the purpose is to have fun and not forget about that, but also play the game. We're here to play the game in a way, Right? So it's like my entire thing is like, play the game, but don't sacrifice the most precious thing in the world for the game play as the most [01:45:00] precious thing. Yeah.
[01:45:03] ck: And then another thing that came to me as you're speaking, one, one reason I wanted to speak to you is have you heard a phrase householders before?
Have you heard that before? No, I haven't. So in the, in the spiritual world, you can choose to live a monastic life, right? Mm-hmm. , be monk, be a nun, right? Go to a cave. Mm-hmm. and just focus on the spiritual development part. Totally. Okay. Right? Mm-hmm. , right to be a, uh, as a renunciant, but to me, being a householder is harder, quote unquote.
I know you don't like that word, but I'll use it because it requires more effort. Mm-hmm. not only we're, you know, doing our spiritual development, but you know, there's worldly responsibilities to ourselves, to our family, business employees, right? Mm-hmm. collaborators and all those. So to me, you do walk a line of being [01:46:00] right.
You're, uh, your role as a marketer, right? That's a very material role. Yes. And then your role as a, um, spiritual Twitter personality. I'll use your words, ,
[01:46:12] Tej: right. But
[01:46:13] ck: there's a clear, like you strike a good balance between both worlds as a householder.
[01:46:23] Tej: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I actually, I, I like that that resonates because I feel like, um, I really resonate with the, in the world, but not of the world.
Mm-hmm. way of being. Right. Because I feel like, um, obviously never really at all like lived that other life where you kind of, um, leave everything behind and you just go full in. So I try not to have any opinion on things I haven't experienced. But for me personally, with, um, this way of life, it feels like I'm constantly in the fire and things are coming up that it may not otherwise have been able [01:47:00] to experience and clear, right?
Just business in its own is like constant fires and you're like a firefighter and you have to deal with so much that is coming up. So I feel like everything in this game of life can be used as the vehicle to become a greater being. So even when it comes to setting goals and intentions, One part of me is like the ego part's, like, oh, it would be epic if we achieved this.
But the other part is like, man, if I set this goal that is sky high, who would I have to become? How would my being evolve and grow? What fires would it have to embrace and how would it blossom? So that also really excites me to be fully in the game, to be fully in the fire and to put myself through certain challenges and obstacles that will force me in a very gentle and kind way to level up my being.
[01:47:52] ck: Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I wanna talk to you, right? Cuz you, you know, espe truth in your newsletter. I'm like, holy shit. And how [01:48:00] does he live his life on the day to day? And based on our brief conversation, it does sound like you're putting forth the effort to be in the world, not of the world.
Uh, follow up question there. Gary Vanerchuck has famously, famously said he doesn't read any books. Mm-hmm. . And he is all, every piece of content is self sourced. Now how much of that is true? I don't know. I don't know him. I don't live with him, so I don't know exact, you know, whether or not it's true or exaggerated.
Mm-hmm. . I'm curious to know about you though, cuz the way you articulate it is very much inside out. You're excavating from within. To deliver the truth that, you know, how much of reading or listening and seeking from other research or books or [01:49:00] podcasts or things that you listen. Yeah,
[01:49:03] Tej: that's a good question.
So, um, in terms of like reading overall, um, I did go on a bender, like 14 to 20, like hardcore self-help, but that's like, kind of like besides the point. But, um, with respect to all the spiritual stuff, um, I was very, I started like meditating in 2011, so like right after I graduated high school because I thought it would unlock more creativity.
Again, , I thought it was gonna lead to more money. So that's, uh, even I got tricked into it, right? So that's why I'm glad somebody tricked me into it anyways. Um, I like read, uh, so I started having like various experiences and I started reading certain books, but like for me it was like, um, my entire process with the writing and with just being is like, knowledge to me isn't where it's at fully, right?
Knowledge is, knowledge is very important, but in turn until that knowledge becomes experiential for [01:50:00] me, that's when I can truly. Take in the beauty of the knowledge until that happens. It's just words on in a book, right? So like I would read all the books and like I would like, you know, try to wrestle with it and try to understand on a very intellectual level.
But like nothing really worked, Like nothing really clicked. So personally then I moved towards like not really reading, not really consuming like these books or like these talks, right? Every now and then I would, but more so I became interested in my own experience. Where am I at right now? What's going on in me?
What am I experiencing in this moment? To become curious about it, into inquire and also engage certain practices like sensing your body, being aware, meditating in the morning, developing the cot, center in your belly, the lower belly, and just being more grounded. The what center? One more time. The Kath Center.
I think it's c
[01:50:54] ck: o u g h Ka. K
[01:50:57] Tej: a t h. I think it's also pronounced [01:51:00] horror in a Japanese. Oh
[01:51:01] ck: yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, got it. G A life force.
[01:51:05] Tej: Yeah, like, like the Hau center, h a r a. And I think it has like different words as well. So, um, it's kind of hard because like when I write, I'm just like expressing what I'm experiencing now.
But of course, like certain things are the byproduct of things that I read way long ago that I'm not even conscious of, that it's kind of seeping in as well, right? So it's like I'm a collection of all the books that I read, but when I'm writing, I'm just writing from my.
[01:51:31] ck: Mm mm So some not counter-argument, but I, I'm curious to know your thoughts about this.
So, when it comes to expressing your soul expression mm-hmm. , what you're saying makes a lot of sense when it comes to, let's say, producing some outcome. You know, the argument there is [01:52:00] yes, all these, you know, uh, headlines, sub subject lines is being tested. You know, these viral titles, these, you know, copywriting framework is being tested.
So don't just reinvent the wheel. Like used what, you know, the experimental results other have done already. Mm-hmm. , right? So, um, what, let's see, how do I articulate this? So would you say the writing of these type of genre, right, the more of a spiritual practice in nature, uh, use more of the inside approach or, but for outside in approach than marketing.
Like, use what's being proven, tested, or just as a whole, um, use the inside approach for all of it. [01:53:00] because it's more about expressing the truth at who you are. So it doesn't matter which genre you go after.
[01:53:07] Tej: Yeah. I think the most important part is honoring that truth. But I also think that if you can learn to amplify the truth, you can honor the truth in a deeper way as well.
Right. I feel like, um, to stay in touch with your truth and then to learn the tools of the trade will allow you to amplify your truth, allowing you to get deeper in touch with your truths. I feel like when you go completely outside in and you pick the tools over the truth, that's when you end up in a place where you may not wanna be because you look around and you're like, Whose life am I living?
Right? I have everything, but I don't even know who I am anymore. I think that's the danger. Mm-hmm. . So the way I like to do it is like, start with the inside out approach. Learn all the skills that will allow you to magnify [01:54:00] the truth and then learn those skills. Go by the book, you know, use the proven frameworks, build up your expertise, and then naturally forget it all.
Mm. Like with copy, like I read all the books multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times, and I'm not saying like, I'm a good copywriter. I'm just saying that I read all of the books and I hand wrote like sales letters every single day for 12 months straight. I practiced the tools of the trade and then I dropped it all.
I completely stopped thinking about copy principles because they almost become baked in you without you even knowing or being aware of them anymore. And then I allowed more of the heart, more of the purity, more of the truth expression to take over that I never lost touch with from the jump. Yeah,
[01:54:48] ck: let me, uh, so thank you for that.
I, I love your explanation. Let me tie some of martial arts, uh, metaphors here. So in martial arts, we practice, you know, [01:55:00] basic punches, kicks, maybe some kata, some forms and things like that. Those are all training wheels. But when it comes to real sparring or fighting, you don't, you know, follow a specific kata or specific, like, Hey, you're not holding my wrist correctly, , you're not you.
Right? Like, that's , right? The idea of it is you train yourself enough so your knowledge becomes, um, become unconscious competence, so then becomes muscle memory. So then you can react to what the situation requires and there is a learning curve. From unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, to conscious competence, to unconscious competence.
Right? So there is a learning curve there. But don't forget all of those forms, Even meditation, right? That's the thing I want to say. [01:56:00] Even meditation or specific mantra or specific, you know, courses, they're all training wheels. Mm-hmm. , how do we operate as our fullest self? Circling back to your desire, right?
How do we operate as the full creator self at any given moment? Mm-hmm. without the frameworks, without, you know, the formulas, without the, the mantras or without the dependency on certain thing I gotta have in order to operate as my fullest potential.
[01:56:32] Tej: Yes. You just saying that actually, like really clarified something for me as well, which was like, I remember like in a, in like a school setting, like I went from like C minuses to like in university, like really improving and like graduating with.
High gpa. But I remember like my philosophy, like what one thing I changed was like before an exam I would like study obviously, and I would like, you know, like bury myself in the books. And the day [01:57:00] before the exam and the day of, I would stop. I would forget everything. I would no longer look at the books and I would walk to the exam room and I would see everybody else like scrambling through textbooks trying to memorize that last little thing.
But I was just in like a very present head space. And I would walk into the exam room just trusting that I already knew everything. Just trusting that when they ask that question, it's gonna come up by itself. I don't have to do any conscious controlling here. That question is gonna trigger something I've already exposed myself to.
Now I can just trust and allow. And as a result of that, like my grades just skyrocketed. And what you helped me clarify was how that same pattern has been now repeating through my writing and also on podcasts. It's like all the experiences, all the stuff, all the gems that I've collected are great. But now when I'm on this podcast, I don't wanna remember any of those.
I just wanna be here fully and just trust that whatever question you ask is just gonna bring about whatever insight is needed in [01:58:00] this moment. But
[01:58:01] ck: so, So let me do a gentle pushback there too, as well, right? You have been practicing this craft, this practice for, what is it, 21? Something like that. Since.
About like a decade for writing for copywriting? No, this, this trusting like, hey, Oh yeah. Going to an exam. Just trusting that it's all gonna work out. Yes. For about like a decade plus,
[01:58:28] Tej: right? Around, uh, I think like in university. So when I was like 17, that's when I started 17, 18, Yeah.
[01:58:34] ck: Okay. So yeah. Roughly a decade.
Yeah. So, so, so you know, again, bringing back the martial art metaphor, you have a, you know, multiple degrees in black belt. What would you say to someone with a white belt who is timid, who is unsure? Mm-hmm. , who is like, I don't know, I, because the ego wants to cram, Right? [01:59:00] when be before the exam. Yeah. What do you say to them?
So then they can be more assured to take that step, take that leap of faith to trust. Mm-hmm. , uh, whatever comes would be the natural expression.
[01:59:18] Tej: Yeah. Cause like, even like, I would like try to like tell certain friends, like, yo, just forget about it. Just like chill. Like, it's all good. Right? And like, they'd be like, What do you mean?
Like, you know, certain people used to break my heart. Some of my smartest friends would get the worst mark on the test because of test anxiety. Hmm. They knew all the material and I found it so applicable to life. Some of my smartest friends. That know everything are struggling in certain aspects when they should not be struggling because of life anxiety or test anxiety.
Mm-hmm. It's like they can't perform on the day it counts, but on any other day, when they're in, in the comfort of their own home, they can perform like it's nothing. Mm-hmm. . And I find that very fascinating. [02:00:00] So even in those situations, I would just like try that approach. Like, Hey guys, just like Chillo, whatever.
It's just a task. Who cares? You fail it, it's fine. You know, I would try that. I'd be like, What are you talking about bro? , like, what are you saying? And like, um, what I would just like, I didn't tell them this, but like what I would just say is this is where I think it's useful to have more boats that you can eventually burn once you get to the other side.
Right. So like, what do you mean have more boats? Cause even when we're talking about like how, whether it's like meditation or mantra or a martial arts technique, I think it's important to start there because the techniques will allow you to, they will provide an external support that allows you to get out of your own mind and focus on getting good at that.
And then as a result of developing your, being by using those external supports, you can eventually let go of the boat and you can burn the boat.
[02:00:52] ck: Mm. Yeah. Did you follow Lineage by the way? Did you have any like school of thought that you [02:01:00] follow for a while before you develop your own, you know, und do your, your own, you know, philosophy?
[02:01:06] Tej: Um, uh, no. So like the only, um, I guess school was just like the diamond approach, which I joined like a year and a half ago. But other than that, um, it's just been, just winging it as, um, living it.
[02:01:19] ck: Mm. What, why? So that's your first tradition, first school. Why, why that school? What, what haven? Um, you know, why, why?
[02:01:32] Tej: Yeah. That's a really good question. So this school, um, I was just living my life. I was just going through this, like as I'm going through it. And then I had a friend named Chris Alarmy reach out to me and he was inviting me to like, they were hosting like a free webinar or something, or like a certain sessions and like, I was like, I ignored him for like months, right?
And he would just reach out whenever he is, like, Hey man, I think this will be like, interesting to just try to just check out, ignore, ignore, ignore, right? Just make up excuses. Like, Nah [02:02:00] man, like, life's going pretty good. Like, I don't know, I felt like there was something here, but I was also feeling afraid of jumping in fully because I felt like something was gonna get burnt away that I spent so long.
Building. There was like a very unconscious fear there. Eventually I was like, whatever. Like, let's just take a, let's just, you know, let's just take the leap and see what happens. I took that leap and then, um, from the first session, like I didn't talk or anything, I was just chilling in the background and like, I was just watching other people work with the teacher, and I just started experiencing like this very deep level of presence just arising this field of presence that was being held by the teacher, but also just by the other students.
And it started impacting me and I was like, Whoa, like something is really here. But to answer your question, that part initially got my curiosity going, but what really solidified it for me was like how their school and their, um, approach is the in the world, but not of it style. Right. So [02:03:00] I was actually not very familiar with like other approaches, other lineages, other ways, right?
I think everything is good, whatever works for you. But just with my own style and my own way of being, of wanting to be in the world of wanting to maximize the dream of life, it just resonated with me in the sense that it just fit what I had been kind of tinkering with on my own. So I just went deeper and deeper in it.
And as I went deeper and deeper in it, like my, my heart just like started catching fire, like there was belonging here. And it just felt like the way I describe it, it's like all this. My heart was a puzzle and there was one piece missing, and I thought the piece was everything society told me it was. But when I stumbled across the school and I went deeper into the teachings, my heart finally relaxed because it found that puzzle piece that it was in search of.
[02:03:56] ck: Mm. In our previous [02:04:00] conversation you had said a phrase and I wanted to bring it back, which ties in nicely with what you just said. You had said that my heart was dead. I was walking around not knowing it. It was dead. Yeah. And now contrasting into this, Now my heart's on fire. Yeah. So since your wordsmith, so describe a little bit about what's it like to have your heart being dead and not even knowing that it was dead to now being alive.
You know that your heart's now on fire. So paint that picture for us. I mean, we kind of get an idea of what it is, but you know, can you vivify a little bit more?
[02:04:40] Tej: Yeah, absolutely. Like it's, honestly, it was so scary to actually go through that because when my heart started catching fire and it started coming online, that's when I started realizing that for X amount of years I was living with a dead heart.
It's the contrast that made me realize that this [02:05:00] entire time I thought I was alive. I thought I was living. Like if you asked me how was life, how was everything, I'm like, it's amazing. Everything's going well. I thought. I thought I had a live heart. But then when the contrast started happening and the fires started coming in, my heart and my eyes, like when I look in the mirror, the eyes look different.
It's like a different being almost looking through me, right? It's like, who is this? And this is what I've truly been, And it's like waking up to a new life, like the life with the dead heart feels like it wasn't even my life. It feels like I wasn't even there. Like I can tell you the details, like this is what I did.
I went to this school, I learned this. I can tell you the whole story, but I can't feel that story. Like I can't even go back and feel the essence of like that part of my life because it felt like it was a dressed rehearsal in many ways. And also like a script that I was just following. It was just a script.
But now it's like every moment is becoming infused with the juices of life where I can just be [02:06:00] sitting on a couch and have more of a epic experience than when I'm at the best party in the world because the heart is alive now. The heart is on fire. The heart is leading the way. Whereas previously I was very mental.
I was very stuck in my mind, very anxious, very there. So it's like even all this hard stuff, I'll be like, What are these people talking about? Stay away from that. Just like continue to double down on the intellect. That's how you think, right? And it's like, I was very mental. So it's like, imagine being dead, but not knowing you're dead and then waking up and realizing you were dead.
Mm. That's how I felt. Mm.
[02:06:38] ck: So now it begs the question, what, what's one technique, you know, that you could share? What do they do to have your heart being set on fire? Yeah. So
[02:06:51] Tej: I, this is, um, my own like perspective. I feel like all of our hearts are on fire, right? Mm-hmm. , let's start there. [02:07:00] I feel like in the deepest level of your heart, it's raging fire and you know, it, something deep inside knows that the heart is on fire, but the question is, why don't I experience my heart on fire?
Same thing with the sun. The sun is shining the heart's on fire. It's there. Mm-hmm. . What's in the way of this fire? What's in the way for me, and I think for a lot
[02:07:26] Tej: people, but I'll just talk, talk about myself, was all the emotions, all the painful experiences that anyone face. All the childhood bullshit, all this stuff that was in the way of the fire.
I, when I shut my heart down, it's like when I was a kid, you could only show positive. , you can not show negative emotions. Mm-hmm. . So over time, what ends up happening is you become alienated to the point where you can't even feel the positive emotions anymore. Because the heart, you can't put rules on it.
Like you can only feel that you can't feel this. Over time, it just deadens [02:08:00] the heart, right? Mm-hmm. . So it just killed off everything. Like, since I couldn't feel my anger, I couldn't feel frustration, I couldn't feel hurt and sadness. I could also not feel joy anymore. I could not feel love, I could not feel compassion.
It just killed the whole thing. So for me, the process was to re-experience all those experiences of frustration, of anger, of pain, of being so broken hearted and not knowing or not having anybody there to provide that compassion. And as a result of experiencing all those things, then I could actually feel the other parts of the heart that also got disconnected.
The fiery heart that is always there, the love, the compassion, the joy. So for me, it was using pain as a doorway to reconnecting with the fire instead of running away from the pain. Like I had been conditioned by self-help that conditioned me to just be positive fucking vibes all the time. .
[02:08:55] ck: Mm mm Thanks for sharing that.
That's very, very vivid, [02:09:00] so thankful to have, uh, a copywriter , describing this very, uh, internal experience. And as you describe, what's it like to walk around? , you know, feeling numb inside. I relate a hundred percent. You know, I wasn't allowed to express negative emotions, the anger, frustration, you know, whatever the thing is.
And in my, in my culture mm-hmm. , Confucius culture in the teachings of my household. And then, you know, so I had to numb myself and no wonder, I couldn't even feel the positive motion as well. So everything you said relate a hundred percent. Yeah. And go on. And so, so the question I have is then pain was a way for you to reignite your heart again, right?
To, um, to let go of, to integrate, to [02:10:00] re-experience what you bury down in your, in your, in your heart for a long time. Mm-hmm. , how do you, It's, let's see, how do I articulate this? This is, this is an intricate process because it's easy to dwell in the pain mm-hmm. in the suffering in the past. Mm-hmm. versus allowing to integrate and neutralize and equanimize, right?
Mm-hmm. . So how did you process it but not dwell in the negative emotions in the past and.
[02:10:36] Tej: Yeah, this is a really good question because, um, there was like a small stint where I did start getting like a little bit drowning in the pain and thinking that was all there was actually in the heart. There was only pain.
So I was like, What am, what am I, why am I even doing this? Like I'm just inflicting more pain? And I would compare myself to all my other friends who weren't doing this kind of stuff, and I was like, they're way happier. Like, what am I doing? Like, why am I going into [02:11:00] this pain? Because they thought the pain was the only thing that was actually there.
But the more that I opened up to the pain, the more of the deeper layers of the heart and those other qualities that are intrinsic to consciousness started arising. And those qualities felt more like me than the pain did. And they were also holding of the pain, like the compassion would like hold the pain.
Like a mother oozes the pains of a young child, like just soos it. Like when you put a little bit of medicine on a scar, like that's what the compassion would start doing to my pain. And as I would feel the compassion, the healing embrace, I would be like, Man, this feels way more me than the pain. And just have kept happening over and over and over again where it would just con train me to realize that these deeper qualities.
Or more of a reflection of what I am. But initially when you're not really experiencing this because there's so much pain, I [02:12:00] just thought the pain was all there was and I was like, I, I done messed up. Like why did I do this? Life was so good and then my starts coming back, right? , it's like, why did you go into this?
I fucked up. Yeah, Shit. Exactly man. I was like kind of hurting. So how did you, Okay,
[02:12:16] ck: so, so on that note, we'll we'll come back to what you just said cuz that was juicy. But I want to ask you this. How did you or others around you ensure that you kept with the process to have you keep trusting the process rather than this is dangerous, I should not have done this.
I messed up. Yeah, and pull yourself out.
[02:12:37] Tej: You know, it's so crazy because two things were going on at the same time. One part of me was kicking and screaming and like saying like, this is dangerous. I messed up. And the other part, like a deeper part, felt the most, was starting to feel the most alive, had ever felt in a very long time.
And that part was like etching me on like, keep going, keep going. It felt like a lot of things were. [02:13:00] A lot of ideas that I had of myself, A lot of the ways that I was orienting myself, a lot of the conditioning that I thought to be true, it was all burning away and it was very scary. It was like losing the ground that you're standing on because that ground you take to be X, but really it may not be X.
So I felt like I was losing the ground, and a part of me was very scared, but the other part was like, this is epic. I don't know where it's going. I don't know what's about to happen. But just that longing of realizing that puzzle piece, like this is it. Something is happening, something is going down. So that was the internal process of what was going on with me.
But I also had external support with the school. I would work with the teacher every single week, whether you feel like it or whether you don't feel like it. You made that commitment once a week for one hour, you would just dive in and initially I would never wanna, This is also what changed something for me before this [02:14:00] session would start, I was scared.
I did not wanna do it. I would try to make up excuses. Like, Hey, let's say like I got something else to do. I did not wanna do this. But after E'S session, I felt more myself. And I would go on a walk and I would feel like I'm on psychedelics while being completely sober after the session. And I would be like, Man, I feel so me.
This is all I wanna do. I wanna go into the pain. I wanna explore. I wanna explore the depths of my consciousness. Just for the entire process. There's so much joy in it. So I just kept doing it, kept doing it, and kept doing it until I realized that the reason I have all this pain is because I'm neglecting looking at the pain.
Imagine if a certain part of you is in pain and you just neglect it. You act like it's not there for years, and then you finally start warming up to it, and then the pain whispers to you that, Hey, I was never here to hurt you. I just wanted to be acknowledged and held within the embrace of compassion.
And then the pain melts, and then you discover [02:15:00] that compassion is more in alignment with who you are than the pain. I
[02:15:03] ck: love that. The, the point I wanted to double click on, and this is coming from a friend, he had a download, okay. From his channeling session. Mm-hmm. , you know, and which I felt was deep wisdom.
So here is what he wrote down. Mm-hmm. , he said that imagine there are different, um, signals as well as shadows or light in shadows from different parts of your chakra. Okay. The lower chakras, um, that concerns your safety, survival, right? The amplitude of the shadows are much larger, The higher chakras, the mind, the, you know, the spirit mm-hmm.
the amplitude is much less, it's more quiet. And he said that when, [02:16:00] so then what do you do when different shadows pop up or that you notice different shadows? He said to the way to, uh, integrate them is to observe 'em, to allow them to wash over you. Mm. Then you'll notice the more subtler, um, shadows or light on the higher chakra, but first, you know, you need to deal with the louder, higher amoo, um, light end shadow from the lower chakras, right?
Survival, um, desires, um, safety, you know, things like that. So that's, that's what comes to mind as you allow yourself to move through to observe what's happening within you. Then you notice, um, more subtler, um, energies within you and, and then you own that part of you as who you really are, rather than the louder [02:17:00] the, the higher to, um, shadows and energies within you.
[02:17:05] Tej: Absolutely. That was, what do you, what do you hear in that metaphor? That was beautifully said. What I heard in that metaphor was, um, how important that initial process of allowing actually is to be able to hear those subtler guidance. Right? Because even, um, Because even when I would first start feeling like certain ways of like not even wanting to do this and like I messed up, I would try to resist and even push those feelings away.
Like I didn't wanna acknowledge it, right? I wouldn't even be allowing of those feelings. So it's like that's just more ego. The ego just resisting, you know, something like something he runs towards. It doesn't like something, it just resists and just pushes it away. But the beautiful thing about the early on, and I'm still like very early on, like I'm nowhere.
I'm like 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 1% or whatever. But anyway, I [02:18:00] totally butcher that. But anyways, one of the earliest things, like the teacher really told me and the guidance was just like, Allow everything. Just allow it. All right? If you're feeling you don't wanna do the inquiry, just allow it and we can just investigate and be curious about what's going on here.
If you're feeling so excited, just allow it. Like every little thing you would allow. And what's crazy is when I first started experiencing the deeper qualities, my ego was scared of 'em. It wouldn't even allow all the joy that was there, all the love that was there, all the strength, because it felt like it was gonna get drowned out and die.
So it would only allow 'em in little small doses, like it was so scared. So just continuous allow, allowing continuously, continuously, continuously. Where you start to realize that like, Hey, every time I. Nothing bad happens. All the pain comes from pushing it away. Just that act of pushing is what creates so much pain.
But if I can just simply allow, then I can simply be here. Because [02:19:00] whenever I don't allow, then I go into my mind and then I enter the past in the future and I'm gone. My being is gone. It's left this stadium. But if I just allow, then I'm like a limitless container that can house anything. It's like that roomy quote.
It's like, whatever guest comes into your house, just allow even if the guest destroys your house.
[02:19:20] ck: Mm. I love this. Um, how are you feeling, by the way? Shall we continue or are you, you, how, how do you feel?
[02:19:31] Tej: I'm, I'm on peak flow right now. Downward. Okay,
[02:19:34] ck: cool. Awesome. Let's go. Let, let's do it. All right. So you, you had mentioned a keyword word.
I'm curious to know your practice, uh, psychedelics. So I'm curious to know how you balance, um, your psychedelic practice as well as your, um, diamond approach, practice, and other spiritual practices that you have
[02:19:54] Tej: for psychedelics. Um, with that line, I was mostly alluding to how after the diamond approach [02:20:00] sessions, I would feel like I'm on psychedelics when I was like sober.
Right? With respect to psychedelics, with my experience, I've only done mushrooms like. One real time. Mm. That was like that, um, very intense experience, which I describe it as the most frightening experience of my life, but also the most liberating experience of my life. Cuz it was frightening to the who I thought I was, but it was liberating to who I actually am.
Mm. So with respect to psychedelics, it was like that one real time. And with respect to, I have friends that have like, have done like DMT and like iowaska and stuff, but I haven't done any of that. I've only done, um, mushrooms. Okay.
[02:20:43] ck: Got it. I'm almost curious now, so we can compare notes, uh, on that, whatever that is.
That's okay. Moving on then. Um, it's very clear to me how, um, you, let's see, how do I [02:21:00] articulate it to, for, so for me, there are stages of development, right? Going from seeker seeking answers from outside of 'em, right. Books, podcasts, research, you know, things like that. To find the truth finder is finding the truth within them, starting to right.
Uncovering that creators, owning that they already have the truth within. And then, uh, excavate that and share it as an artifact to, um, Their younger selves or their current selves, whoever is willing to listen as an, as a, as a, as a signature, as a, as a, as a contribution. Mm-hmm. to the greater humanity. So to me, it's very clear that you are on this path of owning the creator part of who you are.
Um, I'm curious to know your perspective on, is there anything you wanna double click on on your own journey and does that align at [02:22:00] all with your journey?
[02:22:01] Tej: Yeah, I feel like for me, like how you laid out the steps there, it's like very useful because I feel like in order for me, the reason I embrace the creator step is because it allows me to do all the other steps as I'm creating.
Because I feel like when I'm creating, I feel like there is two types of creations. One creation is like when you think it's a new creation, but it's just old ideas recycled in a new way and you already know where this is going and that's fine and well, like I do that all the time too. But the other type of creation is where you discover in the process of creating.
And I feel like in order for me, that's why I couldn't really like, just like keep reading the books. I just couldn't keep listening because I wasn't creating to discover, I was just consuming. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm . So to me, I had to create to discover. So to me, when you break it down like that, I think that in the process of creating is when I [02:23:00] discovered the.
If I don't create, then I'm just on the sidelines. Mm. So that's the way I like to look at it. So it's like that thirst, that love for the truth for me, comes through the creation because that's how I discover it. Without that, I'm just chilling on the sidelines. People just telling me stuff like, this person, this is who we are, this, this is where we can go.
This is our potential. And I'm like, Maybe it sounds true. It sounds true, it sounds nice. But I wanna create and discover in real time, actualize those learnings, put them into myself, become a greater being, and just continue to create. If I can only do one thing, I would just create, all I wanna do is just create, create, create.
Because you can never hold onto anything. You know, You finish your creation. It's wonderful. Okay. Now that moment's gone. It's like death, rebirth, death, rebirth, death, rebirth, and every single moment. So all we can just do is create, and through those creations we can discover and evolve and grow. So that entire path, I just [02:24:00] condense into create.
I love it.
[02:24:03] ck: So what I'm hearing is the ultimate pursuit is the pursuit of your own truth, right? And then the way to excavate that is by the act of creation, whatever that looks like. You know, whether it's newsletters or podcast casting Yeah. Conversations, businesses. Is that an accurate reflection of what I understand?
[02:24:22] Tej: Because I have so many I know. Like I feel like you can pick any domain in life, whether it's. or whether it's, I have a friends that just are into like, picking up girls, like that's their thing. Right? And they have gone, I feel, I feel like you can pick any domain and if you go as deep as possible in that domain, eventually you will discover the truth of everything.
Cuz everything is a portal leading back home. Mm. And I had so many friends that got into dating and pickup, but then they fell in love with the presence and groundedness that they discovered they needed on the path, and they realized they were more in love with that [02:25:00] than actually getting late or whatever.
[02:25:03] ck: So you mentioned a word I thought that was interesting word portals. Yeah. So as a curious person, as a passionate person, why haven't you gone down to different portals? Why did you stick with writing as a, as a portal that you stick with?
[02:25:21] Tej: That's a good question. I feel like, um, as I continue, I'm like very, um, when, when I start feeling like a certain like vibe, like it's time, then I jump into and change portals.
Like even with respect to the, the podcast, I guess that's like the second portal that I've kind of like slowly, you know, tinkering with and like opening up with the, with the new launch. But even that it was like, um, And just felt right, Like, you know, I started doing Danny's podcast. I'm like, it's pretty fun.
Just like hopping on a microphone and just fucking, just talking. Like, it's actually very cool. And then I just felt that inclination to open up that portal. And like even how I announced [02:26:00] the podcast, I was like, I wanna talk in audio to myself so I can discover more about myself. Hmm. From that now. But
[02:26:08] ck: you haven't in a view format.
How does that work? Yeah,
[02:26:11] Tej: so like with the entire podcast, I, it's, it's a free flowing podcast because I just wanna do whatever feels right in the moment, right? Mm-hmm. So like, some, like Andre, he just like reached out and dms, he's like, Hey, you wanna chat? I'm like, All right, let's do it. Like, let's see where it goes.
And like, the way I do the interviews is like, kind of like this, like how we're doing it is just like vibing and just like, you know, nothing really like scripted, nothing like preplanned. It's kind of like that test analogy, like I studied beforehand. Now I come into the room, I let go. I forget everything, and I just create live right now.
And even that is like a process of discovery for me. So that's the next portal. But, um, yeah, I think, um, that's a good point that you made. I think that's something to, for me to consider, like opening up, just going down more portals. I think that's like, [02:27:00] is there something there?
[02:27:03] ck: Why, Let's see, how do I articulate this?
Why I like video forms is, and in video podcast format specifically is it's a multidimensional transmission. between two people. Mm-hmm. so people can feel it. Maybe they can see it, maybe they can hear it. Um, hopefully for sure. They, they, they, they, they, you know, palpably feel it cuz salt wise. So that way, as the famous line goes, they may not remember what, what we say or what we do, but they're gonna remember how we make them feel.
Mm-hmm. and then take that energy as an extra motivation to, you know, um, change their trajectory of their life to pursuit, you know, the essence of who they are a little bit more. That's, that's my go goal and that's my hope with a [02:28:00] video podcast as an example. Mm-hmm. , what's your hope in the podcast that you make?
[02:28:08] Tej: My hope with the podcast is to free flow as much as possible. And my hope with the podcast is to let go of the parts that we are conditioned to assume when it comes to talking out loud, whether to somebody else or whether to an audience, or whether to yourself. I wanna let go of that part and I just wanna express the rawness in a way that is true to my heart that makes it digestible to other.
I want this podcast to service a reflection of that, whatever form it takes, I'm happy with whether everybody listens or nobody listens. Again, the victory is one [02:29:00] before I click publish if I honor this truth.
[02:29:04] ck: Mm. I love it, man. Uh, I think that's a great place to rap. Is there anything else that you wanted to say before we complete?
[02:29:17] Tej: I think, um, no, I just wanna express my gratitude for you once again for just, um, vibing and just flowing and like, this was such a remarkable experience and I'm also grateful to Danny for, you know, shooting that text. So I'm thankful for this. Yeah.
[02:29:35] ck: I'm thankful for you, my friend. Um, more than this conversation, it's obviously that you are doing the work, that you are stepping to your path of being a creator, that you are creating compelling, transformative artifacts, you know, in the form of newsletters, in the form of podcast, in the form of conversations, [02:30:00] um, that illuminate the infinite potential in whoever listens to you, whoever resonates with you, and, um, Yeah, I'm really excited to see what come may, what's possible when you keep doing this type of work, when you keep collaborating with others who, um, who's trying to do the same.
So I really appreciate how you, how you show up my friend Warrior.
[02:30:32] Tej: Likewise. I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much.
[02:30:36] ck: Now, um, definitely for those who, like Whatt has to say, uh, check out his new podcast, h Dosa Vibes on Spotify, anywhere else that people should go visit you or follow you, I think,
[02:30:52] Tej: um, either just to Twitter, maybe that might be a good part.
[02:30:59] ck: [02:31:00] Yep. . Awesome. Very good my friend. Until we chat again
Tej Dosa is a DTC copywriter, online entrepreneur, and spirituality-loving twitter personality based out of Vancouver, Canada who lives to fulfill his personal motto for living a full life: "top of the world or bottom of the ocean, zero desire to live in the middle."