April 27, 2023

164 Jack Liang: How to Mobilize Thousands for the Stop Asian Hate Movement

My guest today is Jack Liang. He co-founded GoldenDAO with Andrew Yang and is one of the leaders in the Stop Asian Hate movement, one of the largest anti-racism movements in the country. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, Jack faced discrimination and violence as a Chinese-American. However, instead of letting this adversity hold him back, Jack has used his unique background to spearhead this significant movement. As an entrepreneur, activist, and former corporate professional, Jack is the driving force behind the historic rally Stop Asian Hate, which united thousands of people in a stand against discrimination. Despite facing challenges and setbacks, Jack remains unwavering in his pursuit of justice and equality. His passion has taken him from the streets to boardrooms, and even into the digital space with the launch of GoldenDAO, the first social activism DAO. Get ready to be inspired by the unstoppable force that is Jack Liang.


We talked about

  • (8:52) Discovering inner peace: How Young Pueblo introduced Jack to meditation
  • (11:21) Mastering your state of mind: Learning from Tony Robbins to transform your physiological state
  • (15:47) Unraveling the past: How childhood experiences shape our decisions today
  • (18:21) Navigating your inner compass: Differentiating between your higher self and lower self
  • (23:49) Problem-solving: Where do effective solutions come from?
  • (24:51) Revolutionizing protests: Jack's modern approach to organizing rallies
  • (26:33) Origins of a movement: The birth of the Stop Asian Hate rally
  • (29:49) Rallying for change: The far-reaching impact of Jack's first protest
  • (35:47) Uncovering the driving force: The source of Jack's unwavering motivation
  • (46:37) A star-studded protest: The story behind Rihanna's surprise appearance at the Times Square rally
  • (63:48) Navigating crisis: Strategies for achieving the best outcome during triggering events
  • (71:12) Powerhouse partnership: How Jack and Andrew Yang joined forces in business
  • (75:23) Reading the room: Developing a critical skill for entrepreneurial success
  • (90:42) Creating spaces for healing: Jack's vision for fostering healing and growth




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[00:00:00] CK: Welcome to noble warrior. My name is CK, Len noble warriors. One interview thought leaders about the journey from ego warrior to noble warrior and reclaiming deeper joy and deeper purpose.

So you can do the same. My next guess is Ja. Leanne is an organizer builder leader of stop Asian hate movement. And his intention is raise awareness, empower the, a API community. He's also the co-founder of golden Dow with Andrew Yang presidential candidate. Welcome to noble warrior.

[00:00:34] Jack: Thank you CK.

Appreciate the introduction. Uh, super excited to be here. Very excited to just drop in with you. And, um, you know, obviously we've met, uh, in ceremony and I just really love your energy. So I really want to give back to your audience and, um, just spend more time with you.

[00:00:51] CK: Oh, appreciate it. Likewise. You are a cool dude.

So thank you. Um, thank you. So let's go into the origin story real [00:01:00] quick. You know, how did you go from working at Instagram, being an entrepreneur on different restaurants to a community organizer around south Asian hand?

[00:01:11] Jack: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think the story goes back before, you know, the success, right?

It's like how, like, how did I, you know, experience or, or why did I end up doing this? Right. So, uh, essentially, you know, growing up in, in Brooklyn, New York, It was not easy for, um, Asian Americans. Right. We had no one to look up to, um, uh, always felt like a third class citizen, um, experienced a lot of, uh, identity issues, experienced a lot of racism, um, bullying, things like that.

So, you know, unlike most people who grow up trying to focus on their education, um, focus on getting good grades and making their parents proud. I was just trying to focus [00:02:00] on how can I get the most protection, how can I survive in, in my neighborhood? Um, so things I would do is like, okay, I gotta join the basketball team.

Like things like that. I gotta join the track and field team. I gotta leave school with a gang of people. So I'm always safe, like, which is not a good way to live because you're always in the scarcity mindset, um, and always living, um, and survival really. um, so, you know, I, I, I end up doing really well, uh, getting out of that environment, uh, leaving the environment, um, going to community college in Tribeca, which is a really beautiful neighborhood in, in Manhattan.

And then, um, uh, transferring to NYU where I started to meet likeminded individuals and people from all over the world, international, uh, students and they, and a lot of them were Asian and they started treating me really nice, like, you know, helping me with homework, [00:03:00] uh, buying me lunch and like so much kindness.

And like, it was the first time, my life where I could leave like a cell phone on a table and not feel worried that it was gonna be stolen. Mm. Um, I could invite these people over to meet my family for the first time. You know, that perspective started changing my, uh, my life and my identity. Um, but I still faced some of those issues, some of, of childhood of, um, just not being enough, uh, trauma, anger, um, especially when I drank, I would just, you know, be kind of reckless.

Um, and, and things would happen a lot of things that I didn't like, um, like getting into fights, um, you know, things I would say. And, uh, I realized that this was an issue, um, especially as I was trying to develop as an adult. So I essentially, what I did [00:04:00] was I, I had this opportunity to work at Instagram because, uh, a lot of my ads were, were doing really well.

I was running ads for a bunch of restaurants and my, my own restaurants. Um, so I left the city. I went to, um, the bay area. And this is kind of where I got a lot of help. Right. Cause it's, it's just more common to, to talk about these things in the bay. Um, so I,

[00:04:24] CK: these things, what are these things, uh, like

[00:04:27] Jack: therapy, uh, like, uh, like I think problems, like how to word problems, how to, um, word like depression, anxiety, um, discomfort, anger, like, like how do we find a safe place to talk about it?

You know? So, uh, know going to the bay, it was a lot more common for people to have these very vulnerable discussions on [00:05:00] like, you know, what is bothering you? How has it impacted you? Mm-hmm and it was so new to me cuz you know, as Asian Americans, we are really taught that feeling anything is weakness, right?

It's like, you know, just. Do it, get the job done. Um, don't have any feelings, but you know, what happens is that just makes us robots mm-hmm and, um, you know, we become soulless mm-hmm right. Uh, you know, in, in the east they say, you know, uh, feelings are like, feelings is how God talks to us. Right. It's it's how we communicate with God.

So, uh, as the more we block that off, the more we just become like, yeah. Robots, like how does that make us any better? So, um, yeah, so embarked on this journey of, uh, trying to get some help. Um, and I spent two years, a lot of [00:06:00] time, a lot of money on, on getting this help. Um, just all in like any conference, any retreat that anyone recommended, any session, any person I would just say yes, because I knew I needed it.

So I,

[00:06:16] CK: well be, before we go into the details of the retreats, was there a particular incident that had you say, Hey, I really wanted to be better in this area. Yeah. Or, or it was just merely a, a realization, Hey, whatever the accomplished that I have, I need to do better. So I wanted to find a solution to be better.

Was there

[00:06:39] Jack: anything, yeah, there specifically, I used to, you know, I, I mentioned, I used to own a bunch of restaurants and a few of my partners were like, one of my partners were, were one of my best friends and it ended up that there was some shady or things happening, um, in the business, uh, [00:07:00] you know, money missing, um, working with other people.

And it was, it was that moment where I realized, I didn't know how to confront this person who I feel so close to. Mm. Um, it was like, how do I even talk to him about it without one of us getting angry? And then, you know, very likely, like, I would say 50% chance, like it could, it could turn physical mm-hmm

And that was just like my reality. It was like, like as, at that point I was 26 and I was like, how am I supposed to grow as a human being as an adult, as a man, if I can't have challenging conversations without it getting physical or, or a chance of to get physical. And I'm like, that doesn't seem right to me.

um, so I knew I kind of had a problem and I, I knew I was responsible for that and, and trying to solve that. So that [00:08:00] was my, um, yeah, that was really how I knew that I needed some help. That's

[00:08:05] CK: beautiful. I mean, that's, that's, that's real maturity, right? To have the discernment to say. My old way of dealing with conflict, which is rage, which is physical conflict.

Doesn't work for me anymore as a 26, 27 year old man. Yeah. Going to adulthood. So let's find some other ways to do this. That's awesome. I love it. Thank you. So then, then that started you embarking on this journey for two years looking for different modalities. Yeah. What have you found? Which, which was the most, uh, impactful for you?

[00:08:36] Jack: Mm-hmm um, well, the first one obviously is meditation. I, I mean, I still do it and, uh, I, I don't know why I say obviously I, I just, just do it every day. Um, so I, I think it's, for me, it's obvious, but I met an individual. His name was Diego. Um, or some people might know him as young Pueblo and he came to speak [00:09:00] at Facebook.

And, um, at that time, like 10 people showed up and I was just. I don't know why I showed up. I was just like, this looked interesting. Um, I guess he attracted me to him or I, and I just sat right at the front and I was listening to every single word and I was just really paying attention to how he made me feel.

Mm. And like, he just made me feel so calm. And I was like, how is this possible that this one person who is sitting up, like, obviously talking to a few folks, he's on camera and he's so calm, how is this possible? And I just started asking him a lot of questions and he was like, Hey, you know, I, I just meditate.

And I was like, what does that, what does that even mean? You just meditate. Like, how do you meditate? Like, who do you teach? Like where no idea details. Yeah. Like he was like, just go on YouTube and listen to some meditation. [00:10:00] And I was like, okay. And then, and then I kind of wondered, I'm like, You know, where's this guy from, like, how does he have so much time?

Like, what was his childhood like? And he was like, dude, I'm, I'm a Mexican guy from the Bronx. Like, and I learned how to do this. And I was like, wow, like, uh, another, uh, minority, uh, person of color from a neighborhood that's kind of similar to mine, um, is able to achieve this sort of peace. And he's able to make me feel it, like I want to do that for others.

Um, so I just started with meditation. Um, and, uh, now I meditate two times a day morning, and I've been doing it now for over three years.

[00:10:48] CK: Is it TM that you're doing

[00:10:49] Jack: T I do TM. I try to have a variety. I do breath work. Um, I just try to have a variety. Uh, so it's fun. So it's not like, it's like, ah, it's boring.[00:11:00]

So it's like, whatever I feel like in the morning, see, it's like I have four or five different types. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So yeah, I think, uh, back to your question, um, yeah, so, I mean, I started with meditating and then, you know, went to Tony Robbins conference, which was pretty cool. Um, you know, just learning tools.

I think he, he, he, he does what he does really well is he teaches you how to activate your body. Um, and, and then he kind of dips into like a little bit of spiritual stuff, but he doesn't like spiritual information, like mm-hmm , but he doesn't go too much into it. Cause I think he really understands his audience.

Um, And that kind of made me curious. I'm like, wait, what is he talking about? Like, and at this point, you know, I'm not religious, I'm still not religious. I never really believed in anything. Um, went to church when I was six, but that was just so my mom could like put me somewhere as she was working um, so [00:12:00] yeah, I started diving deeper and I just discovered different programs and retreats, like, um, like the Hoffman process, like how to heal your, your childhood trauma and, uh, unlearn your love patterns that you learned from your parents.

Um, Joe spend like, uh, plan medicine, um, a lot more. I just like, I would go to one every three months. It was just nonstop.

[00:12:27] CK: And is there anyone that really moved the needle for you personally or, or they all did, you know, one degree and then slowly over time, accumulating over time, compounding over time really helped you.

[00:12:39] Jack: Yeah. It was like perfectly planned, which is amazing. Um, just to think about it, like started with a young Pueblo teaching me meditation, then I got a taste from Tony Robbins and, and then, um, I, I don't remember what I did next, but I'm pretty sure I did some plant medicine right after that [00:13:00] then, um, you know, went to some Stanford class on, uh, it's called interpersonal dynamics.

Uh, just, I, I think all of it kind of really moved the needle, but I definitely, um, like I think like you, uh, CK, I think iowaska definitely moved the needle and, um, exposed a lot of things that I was going through that I, I didn't know was still bothering me. Mm.

[00:13:28] CK: Well, well, if you don't mind, let's, let's going a little deeper there.

Like what did it uncover for you? Or what about this specific mechanism that really was helpful? Yeah.

[00:13:40] Jack: I mean, um, it, it, you know, I went on like a week retreat and, um, the first part I, I realized it, it brought me back to like a time in my life where I experienced a lot of pain, um, and, and still kind of suppressed it, you [00:14:00] know, didn't know how that it was still bothering me.

Didn't know how to deal with it. I kind of just didn't talk about it. And, um, it showed me like, Hey, that is still bothering you. And it, it was a, it was a time when I had knee surgery specifically, and I, I was a basketball player. I tore my ACL. I had knee surgery, girlfriend left me at the time, my first love.

And it, it took me back to that moment where I was in the hospital, um, watching the ball drop for our new year's Eve. And I was crying because my girlfriend was supposed to be there, but she decided to go and party. End up, you know, with some other guys and stuff. And I went back as myself, showed up at the hospital and I started crying with that little boy.

Mm. I went on the bed and was like holding him. And it was like, didn't know I needed, uh, to process that. And it was just hours of me crying with this kid. And [00:15:00] it was a lot of love, a lot of healing at that moment.

[00:15:03] CK: Mm there's. A lot of power. Whether you drink plant medicine or not, there's a lot of power being the adult that we are today, knowing what you, knowing, what we know with the capacity to love, to, to have compassion, to have empathy mm-hmm and bring that back to the inner.

Right, right. Whether it's through plant medicine or whether through meditation, you know, uh, what do they call those? The inter family dynamics, some kind of work along that line. Mm-hmm it's, uh, there's, there's a lot of power in just bringing that envelope, that child with a lot of love

[00:15:41] Jack: and compassion.

Totally. Um, you know, I, I, I feel like the pain that we experienced from when we were children is, is really impacting the decisions that we make now. Um, and you don't really realize that [00:16:00] at least I didn't that most of the actions that I was taking was because of pain. Mm. It didn't come from a place of love.

Um, and then when you realize that and you start to heal that past you, you kind of question, like, why do I make these decisions at all? And mm-hmm , um, try to pivot all my decisions to just try to being in love and being, coming from a place of abundance and, um, just, just like infinite, right. To, uh, like replacing that with everything else.

And it's hard to do, cuz you're not used to, I'm not used to it. It's like I'm used to being, you know, a lot of there's ego. Like I gotta prove people wrong. I gotta make people proud. I gotta make feel like I'm worthy, uh, do these things to prove to myself and my parents [00:17:00] mm-hmm why

[00:17:04] CK: so, okay. So since you, you, you know, touch on that let's let's I mean, double click on that. Mm-hmm um, It's easy to come from a ego. Right. And there's you gonna, you know, it's easy to rationalize, right? Let me make my family name proud or my, my lineage proud or, you know, being Asian proud or my future children proud, whatever.

Right. Mm-hmm the, whatever, the, the belief mm-hmm and you have a lot of people agree with you mm-hmm yes. You should make your parents proud or yes. You should make your family proud. Yes. You know, being Asian is awesome or right. You know, on those. Right. You have a lot of people agree with you. And at the same time, how do you, how do I say this?

Ultimately come back to, as you said, do that just the, the joy of living, right? It's not about all those identities rather. It's just, how do I operate from [00:18:00] the highest energy level, vibrational level, um, joys level, energetic level, and just operate from abundance, as you said, because energetically, we could feel is different, but.

How do you discern for yourself? You know, which level I suppose, which I let's see, how do I say this? Yeah. How do you discern, um, operating from joy, inner joy, intrinsic joy, versus some attachment of identity that you have?

[00:18:32] Jack: You know, I I'm still battling that. Right. I, I think it never ends. Um, and I think the, the time alone and the time when you quiet your mind is really the time when you're like, okay, like I get it, like, is this, is this the right thing?

Like checking in with your body, like checking in with your, uh, emotional self, right? Like checking with your spiritual self. Like, does this feel [00:19:00] aligned? Mm. Um, does this feel right? Right. Because, you know, You know, even, uh, Steve jobs talks about it in his, uh, biography. It's like, you know, he uses his intuition, his second brain in his gut mm-hmm , um, to make decisions.

Right. And, and a lot of people in the east have been practicing that and, and the west, we value intellect mm-hmm um, but if there's a way we could kind of marry both of 'em and kind of activate both of them, like that is the perfect marriage. So I always try to gut check things like, does this feel right?

Like, is this coming from my gut? And then if it's coming from my gut, how do I use my brain to solve the problem? So,

[00:19:48] CK: so one key thing, uh, in a recent ceremony that was in that very question came to mind. Mm. I, I got to observe my mind. Making decisions [00:20:00] grasping France, or trying to do something when there's nothing needs to be done.

It's just trying to solve problems. I trying to please me. So, so, so, so, so there's the brain, there's the mind.

And then there's the body. Mm-hmm one thing I got to experience firsthand is, Hey, place my hand in the body, by my heart, and then watch the body calms down and watch everything calms down, actually. So yes. So then that particular ceremony was about, you know, don't try to follow what the brain tells me mm-hmm or the mind tells me rather as.

What does my body mean in this moment? Right here now. Okay. Needs to rest, needs to be steady or needs to get up. It needs to get whatever the thing is needed. Mm-hmm

[00:20:47] Jack: so, yeah, I think, um, that's a, a tactic that we don't, we're not really taught, right? Like if we just put our hands in our chest a little bit more, um, we, we naturally calm down and we're more in our heart than we [00:21:00] are in our, in our mind.

So mm-hmm, um, it makes a lot of sense that you did that. Mm-hmm mm-hmm

[00:21:06] CK: mm-hmm so, so, so now that we're on the topic of following our heart, our intuition, but also not to get so attached to identity. I have to ask this question. Okay. Mm-hmm uh, what you are a leader of the stop Asian hate? Um, well, not the leader, a leader, right of stop Asian hate movement.

That movement is based on the identity of Asian. Correct. So then, you know, seems a little paradoxical what we were talking about and also what you're a leader of. Mm-hmm can you tell us a little bit more about how you reconciled the two?

[00:21:48] Jack: Yeah. Um, you know, when the incidents, uh, the attacks were happening on, on Asian people, mm-hmm , um, I kind of [00:22:00] like many Asian Americans, they, or Asian people all over the world felt very triggered mm-hmm and it, in my mind it was, it was going back to that dark place of like, I kind of wish someone would, I wish someone would, right.

Like, try that on me or someone next to me. And, and then I ask myself, try that what's that try like attack, like, or, or, um, like attack me or,

[00:22:30] CK: um, I see. So you can.

[00:22:33] Jack: Or like, or spit on me or say something to me, Uhhuh . And I was like, why would I wish that, um, and I was hearing a lot of my friends say that and it was like, so you can release your pain onto somebody else.

Um, that was the answer. And I was like, whoa, like, why would I want do that? Cuz then that just multiplies. Right? Mm-hmm like, it would just never end. Um, and I just [00:23:00] looked around at how people were feeling, just got a, got a sense. It was like people were scared to go outside mm-hmm um, people, uh, were scared for life taking the train mm-hmm no Asians couldn't wear headphones or air pods, just, just to be safe.

Right. Mm-hmm um, and then there was also anger and I was, there was a lot of anger, especially from men. Right. Um, and I just looked at the whole landscape of the situation and I was like, someone needs to do something. It can't come from a place of revenge and, and trauma mm-hmm because that only adds a lot more feel like don't get me wrong.

You can be angry. You can experience all those emotions. Mm-hmm . But, but the solution is not gonna come from that place. Mm-hmm , solution's gonna come from a place of love, a place of being seen a place of belonging about feeling heard mm-hmm . And, uh, I was just [00:24:00] checking at the, like taking a scope at what was happening and what were the solutions.

And, you know, obviously politically nothing was happening, but, uh, on the streets, I, I couldn't really support any of the rallies and the organiza organizing that was happening because a lot of it was like fight back. It was like, uh, it was a lot of cursing. It was like all these things that I didn't align with myself.

Um, additionally, there was, uh, people who were a little bit older and, you know, they were organizing and protesting. Um, they probably knew what they were talking about more, but they weren't getting the coverage that they needed. Mm-hmm and it wasn't cool. It was just like, those were the three problems. It was like mm-hmm , you know, one was out of date, like you got older people doing it.

Two. It was like really people who were [00:25:00] really angry who were leading marches. And then, and then three, it was just not trendy. Right. It wasn't cool. It didn't make people want to come mm-hmm it didn't, it didn't attract people. So I was like, actually I was at a meditation retreat and I, I was extremely triggered by this one situation where, uh, a 35 year old man was stabbed in the back with a knife during daytime in Chinatown.

Uh, no stealing, no anything. Uh, just stabbed him. And it was, uh, it wasn't charged as a hate crime or anything. And this specific incident made me feel like we're getting attacked in a place, uh, where we think is our safe Haven, Chinatown. Right. We, I used to go to Chinatown to, to feel belonging and, um, and someone has to do something.

So I looked on my phone as like an entrepreneur and I was like, who can I ask to lead this [00:26:00] movement? which was silly because it's like, I don't think anyone has ever done anything like this before on my phone, I was like looking for operations, people like social media. I was trying to put people together and I'm sitting here at this meditation.

I just supposed to be relaxed, right? It's a seven day routine um, could not be relaxed I'm I was just so annoyed and I was just kind of, I gave it up to God mm-hmm or, or, or higher power, whatever you believe in. I was like, Hey, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here. Um, but let me know if I'm supposed to do anything and I'm just gonna trust what you tell me, who like whoever it was.

I just I'm just gonna trust. And for the rest of the, the retreat, five more days, all I saw was bringing thousands of people together, empowering [00:27:00] them and just changing their state from fear to empowerment and belonging. Nothing, nothing else. How we did that is just like cathartic release. Uh, Just seeing people care about them and just the presence of, of a lot of people.

Right. Who would stand for us. Mm. And I saw it for five days straight, like every single day. And I was like, crap, like that looks

[00:27:32] CK: like a lot of work.

[00:27:37] Jack: I'm working at Instagram at the time. I'm, you know, I'm just like, oh crap. That's a lot. Um, oh my gosh. And then after this retreat was in Mexico, we were, a lot of people are like, Hey, let's go to tum. After let's go to the beach, let's stay in Mexico. And I was like, crap, I gotta go back. I gotta have a job. I gotta do something.[00:28:00]

I came back, made a few phone calls, talked to friends like, Hey, we gotta do something we have. And, um, you know, a lot of these New York friends, they still know me as the. Drunk guy who would party and, um, get into fights and stuff like that. And they're like, Jack, I know you want to go punch somebody right now.

but that's not the right answer. We can't just gang up on people. I was like, oh man, I didn't realize that these people haven't talked to me in years, like, or don't know who I am now. It's like such a, a shift. I was like, no, no, no. Like that's not what I'm trying to do at all. I'm trying to bring people together.

Like let them feel that people care about them. Like put something cool together where people walk away feeling like, like, like, wow, what an experience? Um, almost like a, you know, like a Coachella for rallies, right? Like how do we, how do we do that? Um, [00:29:00] yeah, no one wanted to help me. Um, like nobody got on the phone called a lot of people.

It was really hard to get help cuz there's risk. Right? It's like you wanna organize an event? Like why is that even a solution? What if, uh, someone attacks during event? What a legal, legal obligations, what if there's COVID spread and what if no one shows up and you fail? Um, and in my eyes it was like, okay, there's all these risk, but what if no one does anything that was the bigger risk to me.

Mm-hmm um, couldn't let it happen. So pulled in, like I was like, I just need you to do this for me. This is my favor. I'll handle everything else. Put people's names on the project, work my ass off, paid for the whole thing. And uh, yeah, we got 10 over 10,000 people to show up in a park in, during COVID and um, you know, changed a whole lot of lives that, that [00:30:00] one day, um, and that one day was not just.

That moment. It was, you know, the businesses there saw the best day they, they saw in years mm-hmm , um, uh, assembly members in Albany saw a TikTok video of, of the, of the event. Um, and, and there were in the midst of, uh, trying to fight for a budget, uh, budget increase for Asian Americans. And they raised a budget from 300,000 to $10 million for Asian American nonprofits in 10, in, in New York, in New York state.

Wow. Um, every week after that, there was another young organizer putting on rallies in different states for like, for months. Right. So there was just a catapult people just needed to see it happen and believe like, Hey, like that guy looks like me and he's okay. He's not in jail or anything. And, um, I went to jail eventually, but [00:31:00] for something else, but yeah.

They just have to see it happen.

[00:31:05] CK: Okay. So let me do a quick recap. Um, we can talk about the impact, the waves of impact afterwards. Um, you saw the calling, you saw the vision doing your seven day meditation retreat. You know, you couldn't find peace in the seven days. Mm-hmm because you keep seeing the visions over and over mm-hmm and you were compelled to actually take action around the vision.

And then, and then you overcame a lot of inner and outta resistance to, to do this. Right. So, so you, you talked about a lot of things I wanted to bring back the moment when you got the vision, because, uh, most people, I would say 99.9, nine, 9% of the people that would see vision, right. They would pray for something and the vision would come.

And then, like you said, Oh, it looks like a lot of work [00:32:00] and most people are like, yeah, that's okay. Somebody else would do it. Thank you, God. And you know, moving on, let me go to tum, let me hang out with my friends. Let me have my day job and all these things. Yeah. But nonetheless, you activate it, that vision by putting energy into it.

Um, can you zoom into those moments and like walk us through it because for the younger jacks, younger CKS watching this, they may have visions too, but they may have a lot of internal noises as stops them from taking action on those. So what went through your mind to

[00:32:40] Jack: yeah, a lot eventually took action.

Yeah. I mean, there was so many times where I was not gonna do anything, um, so many times and I, what, what happened in how I framed it in my mind and. We always have to, at least, I believe we always have [00:33:00] to frame like the worst things that happened to us and change it into a positive or change it into something empowering, um, give us something to worth fighting for.

Right. So to me, I think the worst things that happened to me were because I was six foot tall at 12 years old and I was a target. Right. Mm. Uh, you know, I stood out and I had to adapt to being Asian in Brooklyn, most of my life. Mm. And it was the, it was, it almost broke me so many times. Um, and what do you mean by that?

It, it, how did it break me? Um,

it, it, it brought me to a point where I couldn't take, um, The abuse anymore. And I would start fighting back, [00:34:00] uh, in a way that was absolutely reckless. And it was like a complete fearless side of me, which, which I didn't recognize at all. Um, like things like that were, it was very dangerous. Couldn't recognize myself.

Um, I would do things so much to overcompensate for the fact that I was Asian. Um, I would try to fit, I, I didn't care about my education. I just, all I cared about was feeling belonging. Mm. Yeah. So it almost broke me. And

[00:34:43] CK: here I am. One thing that the Dalai Lama said to Desmond two, two in the book of joy,

He said that when the Chinese government was, uh, oppressing his people, he said that the number one thing he was worried about, [00:35:00] he said he would lose his compassion, his empathy for the Chinese government. Wow. Yeah. He wasn't so worried about him, his safety, he wasn't so worried about, you know, the erritory and all those things.

He was worry about that he would lose his compassion towards the genius government is actually I brought that up cuz that's what it sounded like, what, you know, you were noticing you became resigned cynical and then became this person that you know, that you don't want to be. So that was a beautiful, yeah.

Example. Thank for

[00:35:34] Jack: sharing that. Oh, for sure. I definitely, um, look up to DMA a lot. So any, any, uh, lessons from DMA? Uh, always love to hear it, but um, yeah, so. I, I feel like most of my life I've been dealing with pain from my identity, worked my ass off to get this help. Right. [00:36:00] Like to get like access to, to therapy from Facebook, like, like, like who gets that like very small amount of people, um, to, to get access to these, uh, these weekend retreats at Stanford, like to get access, to sit in ceremonies with other entrepreneurs who, you know, already made their millions and billions, like, and like, I'm not them, I'm not the Stanford grad who got access to that.

I'm I got really lucky to work at Facebook. I'm, you know, I was, I'm not really like a. Facebook employee type of guy. Um, like, and I, I received this help so much. It, it absolutely changed my life. Um, you know, I'm less stressed, less [00:37:00] angry, more calm, um, less judge, um, healthier don't drink anymore, like two and a half years without, without alcohol.

And all I could think about is like, dude, you got lucky. You, you received this wisdom. Go help them, like go help the people who don't know how to, how to maneuver their, their emotions right now because it's so, it's so volatile. And when emotions are volatile, it needs guidance. It needs to be shape. Mm, sorry.

[00:37:41] CK: You're

[00:37:41] Jack: okay. Yeah, I'm just, I got choked up. Um, so yeah. Uh, and all I could think about was this is like your purpose dude, like go and help them. Like you, you experienced the pain, you [00:38:00] felt it in multiple ways, you felt it from seeing your grandpa being robbed. You felt it from you being attacked, physically, emotionally, um, verbally, you you've seen it throughout your life.

And now you're seeing it happen on a big screen to thousands of people who might not have faced this ever, or have faced this their whole life. But out of those thousand people, thousands of people, how many of them got help? And I was like, shit, gotta go help. Mm. So it was just my way of giving back and who know, who knows if it was the right thing to do.

Mm-hmm but all I know is I don't know what their answers are. I don't know what the solution is. I just know how to help people change their state and getting them out of that fear and anger [00:39:00] mindset into channeling that into empowerment, belonging, and, uh, feeling seen. And there's something about seeing tens of thousands of people March with you stand with you, chant with you and seeing that they all care about the cause that you're dealing with, um, that lifts you up a little higher, uh, and doesn't make you feel like you're alone and crazy in this world.

Mm. Sometimes we just need that.

[00:39:28] CK: Mm. Well, I just like the way ya Pablo did with you, right? Yeah. He, you identify with him. Brooklyn meditation. Wow. I want some of that. Mm-hmm and now you get to be that teacher or that figure for thousands of others, young leaders who are also starting, you know, this type of rallying their city.

[00:39:53] Jack: Yeah. It could be anything, right. It's like, it's like, I, I, I care about [00:40:00] Asian hate, right? I care about, uh, injustice, but you know, it's like, there's so many causes worth fighting for, and people just need to see people who look like them. Take, take a stand and take action.

[00:40:17] CK: So, so say a little bit more about that.

Mm-hmm why is that? I mean, I haven't organized a rally before, so I don't know what that is. So why is it important to see someone in a public light that looks like him? I have, I have some initial thoughts, but since you've been doing this a lot longer, I'm curious, you know, your thoughts.

[00:40:40] Jack: Yeah. I mean, so to me, it's, you know, I don't know who said this, but it's you, you can't be what you can't see.

Mm. Um, it's, you know, that's one, one of the biggest reasons why, uh, our success or happiness is dictated by our area code period. Mm. [00:41:00] So we, we gotta get people from those area codes, like my area code, take 'em to Beverly Hills area code and see what's possible, you know, like take 'em to the bay area, see what's possible.

Um, you know, take them to a place where it's nature and see that it's possible to find peace and the greatest lessons come from nature. Like mm-hmm , but if you're always in the inner city and you feel like the inner city is the whole world, you won't grow out of that environment. It's just so hard to grow out of that environment.


[00:41:41] CK: yeah, there's a, there's a phrase in Chinese, Jim de Zoi. It means, uh, if you are a frog dwelling and the bottom of a, well, your whole world is that piece of little sky mm-hmm , that's the only thing that, you know, you don't know anything else. So take 'em out of that environment so that they can [00:42:00] actually see, you know, the glory of, um, you know, diversity of all the beauty all around us.

[00:42:07] Jack: Exactly. That's exactly it.

[00:42:11] CK: So, okay. Let's see. Where do we go from here?

[00:42:18] Jack: Yeah. Where do we go from here? Um, I think, you know, what it, what has showed me is, um, a lot of things like. A lot of people need help. Uh, a lot of people don't have space to talk about their issues. Um, a lot of people are suffering. They, they, they might know it.

They, they might not know it. Um, and there's just a lot of tools and access that people are at the people, people at the upper echelon get to benefit from. And, um, the people who are, uh, working class, you know, [00:43:00] working nine to five, struggling with families, like there's no way they get to access these tools and it's completely unfair.

So how do we healing? How do we make it cool where people actually think it's, it's something they should be doing. Um, instead of like proving to other people who don't care about them, how valuable they are.

[00:43:28] CK: So. Okay. So I, I, I kind of see your grand scheme right now. Okay. So, uh, your overarching goal is to democratize healing, totally stopping Asian hate is a great excuse or a great reason to gather the people to a place where they can enjoy music and learn about new tools, ship their states from fear to love.

Is that, am I projecting too much? Did I understand you what you're trying to do?

[00:43:59] Jack: Well, I didn't, [00:44:00] I guess, you know, when I was doing the Asian hate stuff, that was my, I didn't think I was gonna keep on doing it. I thought I was gonna do one event and that was it. My job was done. And then, you know, two weeks later, I mean, it was like a week later, there was a woman who was, uh, beaten up in the streets of in close the times square mm-hmm and, and then, um, you know, the security guards, two big security guards closed the door on her.

and that video went viral. Um, and that was, I mean, that activated me again because it was like, that's a sign of how America and the people in this country treat us. We get attacked door closed on you. Like no one cared. And that drove me nuts. Um, that which led me to organize my second rally in times square, where I took over all the, the billboards of times square, which by the way, also incredible story.

Um, can you mind if I share it? Oh, [00:45:00] of course. Oh

[00:45:00] CK: yeah. This whole podcast is about, yeah, please share your yeah. Yeah. Well

[00:45:04] Jack: this one, this, you know, the 10,000 people rally was phenomenal. Don't get me wrong. But I already saw that I knew that was gonna happen. People were surprised, but I was like, I already saw it.

Um, and as someone who worked at Instagram who ran ads for a living for a while, I, I saw the numbers and I knew it was gonna be outrageous, um, times square. Happened in three days, I planned it in three days. Mm-hmm Thursday night. Just eventually it'll be Sunday, Easter Sunday. Mm-hmm would be the event. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Um, and I like the first time I didn't want to do it, cuz I was like lot of work, lot of stress. I don't want to deal with this. I need a break. I have, I have a job. Um, and I got a sign on Instagram and [00:46:00] I was debating it because it was like, it was really hard and it was really challenging to get people from New York city to go to times square.

Mm-hmm people from New York city. Don't go to times square. We don't do that. Especially during the pandemic. I see. You know, it's like a place that forests D play. Yeah. Forests D play. It's like, you know, we don't go there. My intention was like, you gotta get people who are not from the area to see that this is happening.

And where else would you do it then? Times square. Mm-hmm , you know, the Mecca, right? The center of everything. Mm-hmm . And I, um, I saw Instagram at, uh, I don't know, a photo on Instagram with a sign on, on the billboard saying stop Asian. Hey. And I was like, this is, this is the sign that I gotta do it. So I mm-hmm did Thursday night committed to it, planned it, blah, blah,

[00:46:54] CK: blah.

Was it by yourself committee or it was by myself.

[00:46:59] Jack: Um, [00:47:00] I, I had a, I, I found a bunch of co organizers, um, that were speakers that helped a lot, um, uh, freedom March, uh, my friend Oliver. Um, and they, they gave a lot of expertise. They, they contributed, they, they were amazing, crucial. Um, but. You know, a lot of it was driven and the idea was driven by me.

And what happened was, yeah, I think what happened was, uh, Saturday I go to the place where I think we're going to meet up and I look on the signs and there's no stop Asian hate on the billboards. And I was so disappointed because that was the reason why I thought it was, you know, it was gonna marching on times square getting the billboards.

It would, it would've been

[00:47:48] CK: so would've

[00:47:49] Jack: yeah. Uhhuh yeah, it would've just been so electric, right? Like, wow. Like you, we want people to feel like people care. Um, and, and we want people to feel [00:48:00] empowered. Right. And if we had taken over time square, like, which was the name of the rally, it was called times square takeover that would've been electric mm-hmm , you know, so sad.

It was 5:00 PM on Saturday, nothing. I, I just found the photo on Instagram. And I just started DMing people on a Saturday, like Saturday evening, like, Hey, I'm doing a rally here from three to five. I did it because I saw this. Like, I already have hundreds of people coming. Like, I need you to post this up.

If you can, unlikely anything was gonna happen. Um, and I chose three to five the next day because I had a photo shoot the, the morning of, um, I, I also do modeling, right? So I, I try to make some money knowing that I just quit my job at that point. Um, my photo shoot was from like 8:00 AM to 2:00 PM. I didn't eat [00:49:00] anything.

I show up at 2:00 PM. There's a lot of people there I'm like, but what's happening? Why is there so many people? Oh, it's Easter. And every Sunday we have a. we have like a, a blessing here or a song circle, a prayer because it's Easter. I was like, what time do you guys finish 3:00 PM. Perfect. Right? Because it was like, just so happened.

I had a photo shoot that ended at 2:00 PM and all my other events, I start at 1:00 PM. Perfect. I got a text message from the guy that I DMed the day before. Hey, I got times square to get all their billboards to light up. Stop Asian. Hey, from three to five, never met this person, like never met this person.

Don't know, I don't know his name, but somehow he got his agency to do it [00:50:00] on that in less than 24 hours. Notice times square taken over on the billboards. We marched on times square. We had bikers volunteered and showed up and closed up the street. We marched to the location from times square to where the lady was attacked.

Mm. And instead of having like, you know, it was crazy, cuz at that point I, I knew what power was because if I, if I said like, Hey, we're going to destroy these doors and kick them down and like run rampant in this apartment building, it could have happened. And there was police lined up in front of the apartment to protect it.

And instead I asked everyone to do a sit down and we had a few people talk and then we even had a meditation, which I led. It just so happened that Rihanna was also participating in this rally at meditation and that she shared this online. So she was the [00:51:00] only ALIST celebrity to come to a Asian, Asian hate rally.

And that was on that day. So. how was pretty good was that, wow. Yeah, that was crazy. So,

[00:51:14] CK: so I think Oprah made this phrase luck is when preparation meets opportunity, right? And you had the promotion chops, you know, how to get things done, you know, how to organize things. You had the divine, you know, vision and also timing.

Um, and you had the skills to your, the meditation organization, you know, the right people, you know, how to, you know, um, put together an engaging event. Right. And that's really fun. That's, that's relevant. That's timely. Can you say a little bit more about preparation meets opportunity and as a way to serve the greater [00:52:00] good.

[00:52:00] Jack: Yeah. I, you know, um, You, you never know when the skills that you learn when you were, I don't know, 1910, like 10 years ago, 20 years ago come into play. Right. Like, you know, from, from early on, I was involved in gangs. Um, you know, organized, you know, I did a bunch of graffiti

[00:52:23] CK: so ,

[00:52:24] Jack: I, I knew about the police system.

I also can identify with why we hate police, like, um, and then, you know, I, it took me to party promoting and learning how to promote events, um, during college. And that led me to open restaurants. And then that led me to get recruited by Instagram. And then that led me to promoting a rally on Facebook.

like, so you never know when the skills that you learn can impact [00:53:00] your future. Like if it was all just planned. Everything was just planned. And it was like, you know, the pain that you faced 25 years ago is now the pain that you're trying to conquer for thousands of people mm-hmm . And, you know, even Steve jobs said this in his book, like he, I think he, he went to school for design mm-hmm and

[00:53:26] CK: never

[00:53:26] Jack: thought he would use those skills again, but when they were designing the Mac, uh, and, and the AirPod and the iPhone, oh my God.

Like it's probably the nicest design product we've seen. Right. Like, so I think, um, when you say preparation, uh, meets opportunity, I think that's exactly it. And sometimes it's just trusting that the things we're doing is the right thing and not knowing that it could be used again in the future. Um, so these things will never know.[00:54:00]

[00:54:00] CK: Well, there's actually two topics that you touch on one or two double click. One is so on noble warrior, we say this phrase a lot, um, your greatest wound, your core wounds is the source of your superpower. Yeah. And then what your purpose, your higher purpose is lies in your taking your superpower to serve your younger self, which is what you alluded to your greatest wound that you suffered years ago.

Now you get to love that. Take what, what you, what you have today to serve that. Cause. So that's one topic I want touch on like the whole idea of purpose in service.

[00:54:39] Jack: You gotta send that to me that I love that so much.

[00:54:43] CK: well, I mean, you live it, so, you know, I, I just say it.

[00:54:47] Jack: Yeah, I appreciate

[00:54:48] CK: that. So another point is I forgot.

Well, why don't you talk about purpose, maybe my second point, come back. Yeah, it's

[00:54:57] Jack: hard. It's hard. Right? Cuz it's

[00:54:59] CK: like, oh, I [00:55:00] remember my second point now. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't go. It's the matter of trust have faith that you don't need to freak out about. Oh my God, what is my purpose? Or what's the biggest opportunity.

And what you have demonstrated here is that deep level of trust, trust and faith mm-hmm and it's all gonna turn out, you know what it looks like. You don't know, but it's all gonna turn out. So tell us a little bit more about purpose. Tell us a little bit more about this faith.

[00:55:28] Jack: Yeah, I think it intertwines, right?

Cause it's, cuz it's totally related and, and it's how we make sense of things. Right. Um, and for the most part of my life, I don't, I didn't realize that anything I was doing had anything to do with my purpose. It was just all survival. And like, how do I get by, how do I make it to next year, next week? How do I have pay for my tuition?

How like, and. I guess you for, I guess, in [00:56:00] terms of trust, I, I, I have difficulty dealing with this too, cuz you know, in my mind I'm around a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of successful people and just from the outside, it's like, oh man, that'd be cool. I wanna be like that. Um, and then, you know, I think you, you know, going back to purpose, it's like, how do I look at the external and see if that's who I am and, and see, what do you mean?

Like I paid, I could notice all these things on the outside. I could notice that person driving a nice car or that person, you know, having a a hundred million home and I've seen it all. I've seen these things in real life, right? And I'm like, this is what they did. This is who they are. Is that me? Mm-hmm

Like, is that me? And you really have to be honest with yourself and be like, [00:57:00] mm, that is me. Or that's not me. Um, and that's really hard to do cuz I still, I still get envious. I still, uh, you know, desire things. Um, so it it's really tough. Right. And the only thing I know is I just have to trust that the ups and downs are supposed to happen because if you don't trust that these things are supposed to happen, it's you don't trust that God or higher power has a better plan for you.

Mm-hmm um, and I, I did a lot of reading on this. Um, it's called conversations with God. Mm-hmm like, if you don't trust in what's happening, you don't trust in God. Mm. Um, Always gotta trust.

[00:57:52] CK: all simple to say simple, to say simple, simple to

[00:57:55] Jack: say, but hard to practice. Cuz I forget all the time. I'm like, oh crap, like this is [00:58:00] happening. Oh crap. I got these bills. I got this obligation. I gotta take care of my family cuz you know, my parents are getting old and I I'm the I'm the one who's, you know, responsible for them.

You know, I'm the breadwinner.

I don't even, don't even like tomorrow's not even promised mm-hmm trust. Like everything always takes care of itself and it does mm-hmm so yeah,

[00:58:28] CK: it does. One of the things that I started to take on as a, as a mantra, always, you know, I actually learned this from, you know, the ceremonies that we've been sitting in is uh, Soria only joy, all joy.

So, so I use that as a mantra doing ceremony, but I also use that as a mantra just every day. So for example, there's setbacks of my, my flights or my rental cars or something like that. Normally I would just what do you mean? Yeah, [00:59:00] I need this and then the other thing you didn't tell me. Oh my gosh. So annoying.

And then I'm like just only joy, only joy. only joy

[00:59:08] Jack: or I think, what do you think helps you with that? Like, like getting from like, you know, cuz I see people who, who get triggered from something and are so attached to it for days and I've been there. So I'm curious to know what, what you do to help you with that.

Is it just a mantra? Just

[00:59:25] CK: literally just only joy, you know, whether I say it or my friends say it, the conversations that I involved with mm-hmm because one of the key things I, I totally believe in is who I am is the conversations, the network of conversations that I involve myself in. Hmm. So if I'm involved myself in the conversation of so agree, only joy, that's a constant reminder for me to, Hey, think about the lessons, the insights, the joy, even though waiting in line in a rental car place is kind of [01:00:00] annoying.

right. Only joy . Yeah. So that's how I'm able to bring my attention to, to that versus the default attention is, oh, it's so annoying or whatever. So inconvenient or inconsiderate. So that's that helps me pulling towards a positive polarity.

[01:00:19] Jack: Yeah. I think. I think that's, uh, keeping that in mind of the conversations and, uh, only joy and the, the quality of conversations really matter.

Right. Um, something that helps me is, well, one is meditating and then is like learning how to detach from the situation. Um, for example, I was on my flight back to Paris, uh, back to LA from Paris. And I was going back for a mutual friend Keith's birthday. And, um, and I was there hour and a half, two hours early and they closed the check in, um, for [01:01:00] whatever reason, I think it was, uh, they got, I think they overbooked and they just completely closed it.

And like 10 people were stuck. Um, and I couldn't fly back till two days later. So, you know, I was freaking out for a second, but then I went back to like, Trust like, well, this, I guess this was supposed to happen. And, um, and like not letting that, you know, one second or two second of, uh, of, of pain impact, like the rest of my week.

Um, so I just let it, you know, uh, was attached from the outcome, which you kind of learned from meditating. And it was like, oh, this was a possibility. And then I just surrendered to it. Just enjoyed it.

[01:01:52] CK: Mm. Yeah. So I wanna double click on that because a lot of people, especially people who are not [01:02:00] necessarily familiar with meditation, they think that by meditation, by meditating, we're gonna become, what's the word I'm looking.

kinda like a rug, right. Area rug, people just run you over. Mm-hmm like, whatever, you know, things happen to you. It's like, okay, sure. You know, you know, like a pushover mm-hmm and I don't think that's what you're saying. Right. What you were saying. Um, you know, let me know if I'm projecting too much is being okay with what is and still advocate for what you're, what you stand for.

Totally. You have a backbone, but at the same time, be okay with whatever it

[01:02:40] Jack: is. Yeah, totally. It's I mean, don't get me wrong. I was trying to get my flight. I was trying to get the best option. And after I spent like significant amount of time talking to the woman who barely spoke English and was trying to figure things out, I was, I got to the best possible outcome.[01:03:00]

Everything else has to be, let go, like, don't get me wrong. I was there. I was calling my credit card. I was trying to fix it. Mm-hmm uh, but. When you got to the place where you couldn't fix it and, uh, and everything you you could do was done. Mm-hmm , that was it. You know? Uh, there's no more reason to waste more energy than is needed.

That's how I always see things, right. It's like, what, what can I do now that I do everything I could? And at that point I was, yes. I was like, I'm not gonna dwell dwell on it anymore. Just that's it to be able to separate yourself from, um, the pain and the, uh, I guess the inconvenience is really tough, but it comes from meditation.

Um, it's really where it comes from. Like, I mean, even I catch myself sometimes, cuz I'm still not perfect. And some, somebody skipped me, skipped me in the bathroom line [01:04:00] and I was at a party. and, uh, I was, I was like, oh shit, this guy skip, I grabbed his shirt and I was like, Hey, you can't skip me. And then, uh, he, you know, it was, I felt it, it BR you know, I know this is how I know I'm not perfect, cuz I still do these things.

And then I caught myself cuz the bouncer was like, Hey, you know, stop like a bouncer bouncer, you know, bathroom bouncer. And I was like, okay, like it is not worth the energy. Mm-hmm , you know, it's just not worth it. Like I hit skip you. Like he's he's already there. Like I've already tried to stop him.

Bouncer told me to stop. Like , you know, so it, there I, there is not being a pushover cuz I still, you know, told him something. But then it's like, It doesn't have to escalate.

[01:04:59] CK: Yeah, [01:05:00] for sure. I appreciate it. So thanks for sharing. No, I mean, uh, I love it. I, I love that you have that strong spine, right? That spiritual spine to advocate for yourself,

[01:05:11] Jack: graph people by the lapel.

That's amazing. I love it. Gotta be the blow. My friend was behind me, like co out I was like, oh, you're trying to skip this.

[01:05:26] CK: that's too funny. Okay. So what are some of the happy accidents? You know, being a community organizer that you just never anticipated. You're like, wow. You know, I, I did this. Yeah. Or the greater good. And I let go of whatever happened. And this was like, I never expected this to happen. And this thing, a happy accident happened.

So Rihanna being at the, at the, at the meditation that you let, that was a happy accident. Is there anything else that was surprising to you?

[01:05:56] Jack: um, well, she came intentionally. She was there at the, she [01:06:00] marched with us. She had a sign like, you know, but that was in credible cuz you know how impactful, like I say, making things cool is important because you change culture.

Like that's so impactful for us. Like if you see a Rihanna, like showing up to a rally like that motivates millions of people to be like, okay, Rihanna did it. Like I, I could show up to, right. And the people that show up more people that show up the more political leaders and entrepreneurs and business leaders, they all notice.

And it's like, oh, people care enough to show up. Maybe I should talk to my employees about this. Maybe I should write some new policies on this. Maybe I should donate more money to this because a lot of people are being impacted. Mm. Um, so that's why it's important for Rihanna to show up. Uh, but back to her question, Um, so I, during the, during the rallies, I invited Andrew Yang to come speak a few times.

And I I've, I known [01:07:00] Andrew during his first, uh, first, when he first announced that he was running for president and as an Asian man, I was like, don't embarrass us. I'll say who the hell is this guy? It was like, don't embarrass us. And he just completely surpassed all my expectations. And I was so happy for him.

Um, I donated to his campaign, but he didn't really know who I was. Um, but during the rallies he would come and it was very important for him to also speak up for the Asian community too, because he's, uh, you know, he's for, in terms of media, he's like the go-to guy to speak about anything that, uh, represents Asian stuff.

Right. Mm-hmm , it's like him and Jeremy Lynn who are national figures, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um, he showed up and he. Showed up very last minute, he wasn't gonna come, um, to, to the, the rally with 10,000 people. And he came, he brought his [01:08:00] kids, he brought his wife and he spoke and he was like, wow, that was, uh, that felt like a presidential debate.

Like it was so electric and, and then he would come out to more of my events and, um, when it was time to help get more Asian people to vote, because voting is one of the, the tangible things we can do to make a difference. Um, it's, you know, he was also very supportive of that, uh, because he was also running for mayor, uh, which, you know, he, it didn't end up in his favor, but I think now looking back, he's pretty glad he didn't win.

Um, but what happened was, you know, he lost, uh, his race. He had some time and his brother invited me over for Thanksgiving and, uh, which was amazing. And I thought there was gonna be.

[01:08:51] CK: His brother invited you. Yeah.

[01:08:53] Jack: Wow. Oh,

[01:08:54] CK: that's cool.

[01:08:55] Jack: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I don't know the accident. You actually don't know this.

Uh, um, I thought [01:09:00] you did. So his brother, uh, his brother-in-law invited me over Thanksgiving and, you know, as a Chinese person and we don't really celebrate Thanksgiving, but you know, so I always, since I was a kid going to friends, places, um, and um, I thought it was gonna be 20 people there. I don't know why 20, I just thought it was gonna be 20.

It was eight people. It was him like Theo, my friend, uh, one of my best friends. It was Andrew, his wife, his two kids, his brother, his mom and me. Wow. Which I was like, what the hell is going? And, uh, I, you know, I was like, and we started talking about things, talking about move bits, talking about rallies, talk about opportunity, dogs, talk about no profits.

And he was like, we should do something together. Mm. And I'm like, yeah, fuck. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, that's it, you know, he probably says that to hundreds of people. Mm. And, um, [01:10:00] she was like, what should we do? And I was like, well, there's a thing called Dows the centralized autonom organization. Uh, uh, you know, we should have started nonprofit because here's why here's why doubts are cooler and better.

And so we started a doubt together. Mm-hmm and, uh, we've been traveling all over the country for the last five months, you know, just had dinner with him and his family yesterday, cuz he was in LA and yeah. And like now me and him are business partners. Like, like that was totally unexpected. Mm-hmm um, so

[01:10:37] CK: yeah, so, so unpack that a little, I mean, other than super cool.

Right? So congratulations. Super cool. Andrea super high profile, you know, uh, definitely a visionary. And I'm a, I'm a, I'm a supporter. I'm Andrew. Um, I don't unpack that for us. If you don't mind, like take it, take it like a [01:11:00] meta perspective on that. Mm-hmm what the heck happened to have you become business partner with Andrew Yang?

[01:11:10] Jack: No idea. no idea. It is not what I, I mean, he is just, I just don't understand how it happened. Um, yeah, I mean, one day, you know, he's coming over and, uh, you know, to our, to the rally and he was very impressed by it and he wasn't gonna come to the rally cuz I tried to get him to come and he couldn't make it.

And then for whatever reason he made. um, and you know, I was, at that day, I was like, make moving things around and he came and it was so electric and, um, I, and then he would come again and again, and I just, he just got to know me and, you know, I never really even spoke to him that much during the events, cuz I just [01:12:00] knew everyone was trying to speak to him.

Mm-hmm I I'm like I kid you not probably I've only said more than like five sentences to him. Mm-hmm and I was like, like three of those sentences is like, are you ready to come on? like, what are like, when do you want to go? It was like, that was all the interaction that I had with him. And then, yeah. I don't know.

I just hope, I just don't know. I can't explain it.

[01:12:29] CK: Yeah. Well, I mean there's certain, I think your actions speak louder than words. Right. A lot of people talk and then you did something about it. Yeah. And also my guess my, my hunch is probably your events speak the impeccability of who you are probably.

Right. So based on the results, you can get a taste of just how you think about things, how you do things, you know, the, the [01:13:00] standards that you hold mm-hmm, the people that you surround yourself with the, you know, but this is all projection. I, I have no idea. I don't know what's going

[01:13:08] Jack: on inside. Yeah. I think that might be it CK.

I think, you know, there's a lot of unspoken things and I, you know, I, I always wanted to be a really good speaker, but I just don't speak a lot. Um, I just, yeah, I was not the guy that's be outspoken. Um, I just, yeah, I mean, I kind of keep to myself. I actually prefer to listen but. Uh, yeah,

[01:13:33] CK: I mean, on that note, I would say, uh, cuz you and I, we met a couple of times and I always thought you were very quiet.

Mm-hmm you, you have a serious face on, I didn't know what's going on inside your head and I ask you some questions and you're like, you dropped some like knowledge bombs. I was like, wow. You know, I, this guy's really

[01:13:53] Jack: interesting. Yeah. Appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. I get that feedback a lot. They're like, oh, you're kind of intimidating.

I'm like, shit. [01:14:00] like, I I'm just, I just listened. Like I just like, I'm here to learn like, yeah. So I don't know it's but one of the reasons why I enjoy, um, going to clubs a lot back then was because the music was so loud, you couldn't talk to anyone. Mm. And you would just feel people. Mm. Like how do they feel?

How do they make you feel? Mm. And then you would choose who you become friends with based off how they made you feel. And it was just. Poetic. Uh, I loved it way more than like hearing people talk because sometimes, you know, people could say a lot of things and could be like 90% bullshit. Like, you know, you just never know, but the way they make you feel, that's almost for the most part accurate, you know?

[01:14:48] CK: So say more about that. Uh, before you respond, I would just quote something. I think it was Maya Angelou. Who said, people are not gonna remember what you say or what you do, but they always [01:15:00] remember how you make them feel. Totally. I didn't believe that. Cuz I was a very cerebral person. I was like, nah, feeling who care about those things.

it's knowledge. Yeah. It's content that matters. And that was that's so wrong. That was me in my twenties. I didn't understand this, but bringing back to this, say more about that. How as a community builder, especially your job now is to. Feel right. Sense the collective feel a lot. And then a lot guide the conversations based on the collective feel a lot.

So say a little bit more about how you are using that and how you cultivate that sensibility.

[01:15:48] Jack: Mm-hmm okay. So how I cultivated, that was why I used to be a party promoter. I was, you know, a partner of a party promotion company. And I don't give myself a lot of [01:16:00] credit. I mean, it seems like I do just based on this conversation, but one thing I could do really well is I could look at the whole situation of the club and I could be like that.

There's gonna be, looks like there's gonna be a fight over there. Like send security there. Right. Right now mm-hmm that side looks like they're not really D or they're not really having fun. Like get outta the bottom of alcohol there. Let's bring some people from the fun side. To the boring side , uh, music is not really doing boring.

Yeah. Whatever, you know, just like that, that side looks more fun. That side does it. Let's like bring and end of the day, it's just all energy. Mm-hmm right. It's, it's all energy. It's like that the energy there looks better. The energy there looks more intense, you know, the, the energy of the room isn't picking up, get more people in.

Like, let's get more people in. Like, we need more like, oh, people aren't having as much fun. Let's get more alcohol, like whatever it is. [01:17:00] And I was just, I would, it was like something about, uh, I think being super empathic or just like, uh, being too observant or maybe it was just me growing up in Brooklyn, where I always had to watch my surroundings and pay attention to like anything that like could threaten me.

So I just couldn't stop paying attention to everything. And that. That skill, which kind of was annoying sometimes. Cuz I would, it couldn't, it never turned off unless I just got drunk. Mm-hmm um, like that's how I look at rallies in community building. It's like, oh, they're not paying attention. Oh the like you can't hear back there.

Like why are those people talking? Like, like, you know, is there anything like, are they excited? Are they chanting? They're not chanting. I gotta go over there. I gotta go be there. So they listen or whatever it is that it, it goes to the experience. Right. [01:18:00] Um, and my goal of these experiences, the people to walk away, coming back, like, like I can't believe that just happened.

I can't believe you guys missed that. Like that was so empowering. Like, and I don't share a lot of words even in my own rally. In my first rally I 10,000 people. I didn't say anything until the end. I let everyone speak until. And then I let myself speak. Um, and by that time, like 50% of people were, were gone, you know?

So I just pay attention to the energy and it's hard to hard to really word it, but that's really what it is.

[01:18:39] CK: So now we're getting into more like esoteric realms. You know, we, you know, in medicine circle, we said a lot in meditation circle, we said a lot, you know, sensing the room or space holding for healing or for, you know, for enlightenment or for Ascension, right.

These type of phrases. We hear a lot it's [01:19:00] important, but it's hard to master hard to get better at it. I don't know how else to say it. Right. How do you, yeah. You know, how do you give what the room needs except then just do it more of it. Is there anything else you wanted to say about just being a better.

Organiz yeah. Organizer, energy channel, or, you know, listening for what the room needs. Anything else you wanna say about that?

[01:19:28] Jack: You know, one thing I realize is a lot of people, uh, are not really aware of their surroundings. Uh, especially when I come to California LA it's like, I, I don't know what it is, but, and maybe it's not healthy to be so aware of your surroundings.

Um, just because you, you you're always analyzing. Right. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, uh, paying attention to how people feel like, especially around you, [01:20:00] like, or just being curious of it, like, are they having a good time? Like, or if you're at like a networking event, just like, you know, is that person struggling like, or like, is that person having a, a difficult time meeting people.

I just, I'm just curious of, of that. Right. Just having some curiosity and then I'll go explore if that was accurate, I'd be like, yeah. You know, I'll just talk to, 'em feel 'em out. And I'm like, oh, maybe they wanted that. Maybe they did it. I'm like, and just practice. That's how you practice. It's like try to feel how people feel and, and then trying to go help a little bit and seeing if I did the right thing,

[01:20:43] CK: how is that relevant to being an entrepreneur?

How is that relevant? Yeah. How is that relevant being an entrepreneur?

[01:20:49] Jack: Yeah, I think entrepreneur, the most important thing is the team. Right? And it's, uh, you, you, and it's, I'm not great at it. Cuz I could admit [01:21:00] I've had over a hundred employees before and dealing with my employees was so hectic. It's stressful and like paying, like trying to run the operation and then, you know, work on the, the customers and the employees.

Um, it it's super important because. You know, just you having a way to like, uh, tap in to see what's happening or checking in, or like, you feel like one of your employees is not happy about something or, or upset about something and you just go and, and tap in and see why. And, um, you might assume something that might be correct.

And, and then that impacts the bottom line, right? Because if they're having a bad day and they're customer facing, um, you know, maybe we, we need a break. Maybe they need some words of encouragement. Um, maybe they need you to just sit there and listen for a while. Right. And, um, you know, the more you could show it for your team, the more they show up for you.

So I think having that skill is, [01:22:00] is extremely important.

[01:22:02] CK: And then how does that translate to a governance structure like Dow cuz Dow essentially in my mind, the way I look at Dow is, is a governance structure. You essentially laid out with transparency, what this organization stands for, what are the different responsibilities?

What are the incentive structure, this and that, you know, laid everything out, the governance structure.

[01:22:25] Jack: So, yeah. Yeah. Dos are tricky because Dows a lot of it is based online and a lot of it is anonymous, which is complex, right. It's not something I've ever faced. A lot of it is behind the screen. Mm-hmm and I'm, I'm always in person type of guy, right.

Mm-hmm , I'm not a, on the screen, um, behind a, a keyboard. And there's a lot of these people who came come from the gaming industry and they're used to be, uh, talking behind a screen. And, you know, when you type something to someone it's a lot easier to be [01:23:00] mean or straightforward, um, And insensitive, right?

Uh mm-hmm so it's not something I'm used to, but the, the thing that Dows are really, uh, good at is there's transparency. Um, there's a lot of incentive for mm-hmm the mission and everyone to do well. Mm-hmm um, and it's, and on, you know, I saw the challenge with nonprofits is like, Hey, you know, we just donate money.

Um, but there's no way to, um, you know, contribute myself. Uh, there's no community there's no. How do I know who else cares about the same causes that I care about? How do I become friends with them? Because that's, mm-hmm, like they should be friends. Like it's like, duh, you care about the environment. I care about the environment.

That's, we're, we're halfway there. Like we have one major thing in common. And, um, so that's the beauty of the, of Dows right. It's it's like we try to build community and then, and then when the [01:24:00] community does better, everyone does better. Right. I'm still trying to figure out how we can use some of the space holding mm-hmm in, in, in, in web three mm-hmm , but a lot of it is like Twitter space.

A lot of it is like AMAs it's. Uh, oh,

[01:24:20] CK: okay. So you do have some synchronous conversations. We

[01:24:25] Jack: do. We do. Uh, but, but look, I can admit it's not something I'm an expert at. I'm better at getting all the people to come to the event and then talking to them, like that. And it works. And I think, you know, in a way that's, you know, I stick to my strengths a lot and I'm like, you know, that's what we're gonna continue to do because, um, people love seeing other people in person and no matter how advanced technology gets and I'm, I'm a believer in technology, I just don't think you will.

You can ever replace, um, in person, um, [01:25:00] interactions. .

[01:25:02] CK: Yeah. I mean, this is an area that I'm very, very interested in. Um, well actually let me put it this way. Tangentially. Interesting. I'm I believe in the overarching promise mm-hmm but haven't gotten into the, like on the, in the trenches details. So I don't exactly know what's going on, but in my I'm very much like you, you and I, we met at our, in person events.

Mm-hmm we were in front of a wisdom teacher bank. Right. He could did like 90 minute Dharma talks like nobody's business, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then, but that's one way, it's not a dialogue. It's not multiple conversations happening at the same time. So I see the limitations of having a guru giving DMA talks, but I think to really garner to really collect the, the collective energy, right.

People's Goodwill and desire to, in that case, the Amazon forest. to have [01:26:00] a mechanism that capture that that's gonna work a lot better than say, you know, one off donations or one off artifact sales or things like that, because now, because they're only, it's transactional when, when it's like that. But when it said do that, you're investing to the long term while being of this movement, right.

This collective energy that you home. So, right. I'm very interested to one, how do you hold that space? Two. How do you harness that energy for the greater good


[01:26:33] Jack: all? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're, we're trying to figure it out. It's, uh, it's not easy. Um, you know, the idea of the do is amazing and we plan for the technology to get there, but the truth is there's a lot of technology that is subpar and it's not there.

um, but there's a lot of investment into those technologies and it will get there in like a year or two. And then by that time, our community will [01:27:00] be stronger and then will be a lot more organized in that way, in that fashion. What's something

[01:27:05] CK: that you wish exists, but doesn't exist yet just in terms of the DAO space, whatever, you know, your yeah.

Just what you desire right now, then that it doesn't exist yet. It, it

[01:27:19] Jack: does exist. Like, I, I like these, uh, operating systems where people can log in and vote. It's just the users haven't, um, adapted to it. So we can't really implement the technology. And, um, it's just, there's just so many bugs. Right. And getting, uh, getting, uh, engagement is a challenge.

Um, but it's always been a challenge, right? Like just getting people to. Like, if you think about it, like for our democracy, mm-hmm, like how many people voted for, uh, the mayoral election in New York city? Like less than 10%? Like how many people vote for president? Like, like, I don't know, but the mayoral of the New York city [01:28:00] is like 10%.

Like mm-hmm, , that's pretty, that's pretty shameful. And that's, that's been happening, you know, for a few hundred years now.

[01:28:08] CK: So mm-hmm well, I mean, this is, I'm just thinking a lot with you. I don't have an answer, certainly. So I don't want to pose myself with a guru of any sort. This is just, I, I think people don't vote.

I think that the, the phrase, you know, in the Dow community they use is, uh, voter apathy, right? Because it's not relevant to their day to day life. I think the narrative is weak when the narrative is strong, then people show up to, to take some action. when you have stronger narrative, like, Hey, I'm doing this to, for example, I don't know.

Anyways, stronger narrative then people would be more compelled, like what you're doing. Mm-hmm when, when it's fun, when, when it's inspiring, when I'm giving tools [01:29:00] to have conversations about Asian hate towards my kids, mm-hmm towards their school towards my company. Mm-hmm then like, of course, right.

There's a positive, very obvious positive then of course I show up, I vote with my presence. Mm-hmm just a thought.

[01:29:19] Jack: Yeah, no, that's a great thought. I've been thinking about it a lot, actually. So I think, um, that, that might be something how, right. It's like how so? Yeah. I'm gonna put some thought into it and um, yeah, I'll keep you posted on that.


[01:29:34] CK: do, please do. uh, one last question. This is maybe planting a seed, maybe, uh, for future conversations in my mind, this is what the impression I got is you are really keen on providing tools to help people heal internally, their emotions, their soul, so forth, right. Their mind. Um, so [01:30:00] right now you have a, a rallying call of stop Asian hate to, you know, for people to gather.

And then, then you give them some of these tools. Mm-hmm are there other rallying calls that you are thinking about as a way to keep those people together, to practice those tools of a mindset, heart, soul set? Yeah. As to be even better?

[01:30:28] Jack: I haven't figured it out yet. Um, but I've been thinking about it a lot.

Like how, you know, that's like, how do we just create some space, uh, for people to come together? And how do I organize that and how do I get people to come and how do I get people to care? Mm-hmm and then, and then actually doing it, cuz it's doing it is scary. Right? Like mm-hmm uh, and then sticking to doing it, you know, is like mm-hmm mm-hmm [01:31:00] um, I'm yeah.

I'm not the most committed type of person. I , I just, I kind of like don't over ever want to over promise mm-hmm so, um, yeah, it's a thought, I mean, I love to love to pick your brain on it as well. Like how, how to do it. Um, but it's people have been telling me to do it and like, just even like creating a, a group, a zoom once a month, once a week, biweekly mm-hmm and just like getting people together to talk, um, mm-hmm, , that's kind of the, the, the thinking, but like structuring it, you know, getting myself ready for it.

Um, that's the challenge.

[01:31:43] CK: Um, there's a party called day breaker. Have you heard of them before?

[01:31:51] Jack: Yeah. It's

[01:31:52] CK: like the morning during the day. The party. Yeah. It's not a party at night party in the morning. Mm-hmm and their whole thing is let's start off the [01:32:00] morning with good vibes, basically. Right. JS you know, something that activates the body with conversations.

There's somewhere along that line, that's my sneaky suspicion, right? For the people that want to practice the conversational skill, the emotional skills you make it. Cool. You make it fun. That's your expertise. I think there is something there.

[01:32:23] Jack: Yeah. Day breakers. I always, uh, wanted to go as if you want to go.

We should, uh, we should go together. Yeah, man. For sure.

[01:32:32] CK: Yeah. Awesome. Jack, is there anything last that I asked you a bunch of questions? Anything, if you hadn't, we hadn't covered if we you'd be upset, you know, if you didn't cover that thing. Yeah.

[01:32:47] Jack: Um, no, I think we covered a lot. I, I really think we covered a lot.

I mean, um, yeah, this, we gotta make some space for healing. Simple as that, [01:33:00]

[01:33:01] CK: Jack. I just really appreciate who you are, right? The thoughtfulness and the fact that you answer the divine guidance the vision and you trusted it, you put in on the work, you put money where your mouth is. Um, you made it happen. And as a result, you're now in business with Andrew.

congratulations. Obviously it's just the beginning. It's not the end. Mm-hmm, , there's a lot more to do a lot more to create and just really appreciate you sharing your journey as a noble warrior. Thank you so much for, I appreciate

[01:33:36] Jack: that. Yeah, for being, yeah. Thank you. C K. I appreciate you, you know, coming to me and just, uh, talking to me and asking me questions, even though I, I seemed, um, like I have a very serious face.

just tapping in and just being a brother, man. It means a lot. Yes.

[01:33:53] CK: Well, I knew I had to talk to you after the way you took, how so? I like all, I gotta talk to this guy took [01:34:00] like a

[01:34:00] Jack: champ. Did I? I don't know. I took a, I was like crying and stuff. Like , you're gonna like a champ dude. All right.

[01:34:08] CK: Appreciate that.

Jack LiangProfile Photo

Jack Liang

Co Founder of GoldenDAO / Activist for Stop Asian Hate