May 8, 2023

165 Fred Joyal: Boldness Unleashed: Silencing the Inner Critics Holding You Back

My guest is Fred Joyal, a multi-talented author, speaker, entrepreneur, and business advisor. As the co-founder of the country's most successful dentist referral service, 1-800-DENTIST, Fred has an impressive background in marketing, standup and improv comedy, and even acting. His latest best-selling book, Superbold: from Under-confident to Charismatic in 90 days, has garnered acclaim from both Amazon and the Wall Street Journal. Join us as we explore Fred's diverse experiences - from defeating Sir Richard Branson in chess to being a question on Jeopardy - and learn valuable insights from this captivating and accomplished individual.


We talked about

  • (2:36) Discover how boldness transformed Fred's life beyond wealth and success
  • (5:47) Learn to build your boldness muscle for greater confidence
  • (6:09) How standup comedy helped Fred develop boldness and courage
  • (12:44) Turn life's minor irritations into growth opportunities
  • (21:47) Use past silence as motivation to speak up today
  • (25:38) Handling moments when you've said the wrong thing
  • (28:28) Embrace failure as a purposeful part of practicing boldness
  • (31:28) Managing self-judgment and staying focused
  • (41:34) David Ogilvy's legendary mantra and its impact on Fred
  • (44:43) Overcoming perfectionism: the trap for introverts and the unbold
  • (46:50) The benefits of being "somewhat unprepared"
  • (53:51) Fred's top technique for shaking nerves: harnessing physiology
  • (56:55) The surprising truth about how often people think about you
  • (64:29) Goal setting: finding the right dosage and intensity
  • (68:23) Why Fred talks to wallflowers at gatherings
  • (71:15) Handling encounters with admired individuals
  • (72:27) The reason Fred avoids taking selfies with celebrities
  • (76:26) Cultivating the belief in one's ability to figure things out
  • (83:36) Embracing risk as the juice of life
  • (88:40) Becoming bolder online to build your personal brand





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[00:00:00] CK: Welcome to noble warrior. My name is CK Lynn noble warriors. When interview thought leaders and practitioners about their journey from being a burnout warrior to a noble warrior and reclaim their joy and purpose. So you can do the same. My next guest is the co-founder of 100 dentist.

He is an Amazon and wall street journal bestselling author. He is a speaker and an executive coach, his new book, super bold from underconfident to charismatic in 90 days. Please welcome Fred Joyal.

[00:00:34] Fred: Thanks for having me CK. I'm excited to talk about, uh, boldness. It's important for people when they hear super bold.

Sometimes they don't hear the D and they think I'm talking about football. Uh, so I always remember remind them super bold. It's about super boldness.

[00:00:51] CK: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, I'm an immigrant, so sometimes I lose the, whatever the last syllable is. Thank you for that enunciation. Very important. [00:01:00] I wanna actually first bring us back to how you and I met.

Okay. You and I, we met in person at a polar bear plunge where we submerge ourself in a frozen lake for eight minutes straight. Yes . So you don't just talk about being bold. You are a ha biohacker you, you test yourself in different ways. Um, um, so why don't we start there? Have you always been this way, a seeker, uh, someone who pushes himself.

To expand his comfort.

[00:01:35] Fred: I, I wasn't always, and I, I, I think it, I, part of it was my shyness, uh, and, and that affected all of my under confidence and, and it made me critical of all sorts of things, which was not helpful. And I eventually became a person who said, why not? Instead of. Was a big shift for me, including [00:02:00] jumping in a lake in the middle of winter, uh, which seems foolish to the average person.

And, and while you're in there, it, sometimes it seems a little foolish cause I was looking at my watch and my heart rate was just going up and up and up. But then you, when you climbed out of the water, there was this incredible rush of, of energy as, as the body, the re-energizes the capillaries who have all retreated from this disaster that they're experiencing.

Hmm um, and once again, it was. Yeah. When I say yes, something unusual, unexpected happens more often than not. And it took me a long time to get there. And, but being here it's, it's transformed my life more than wealth, more than success. Uh, just being able to just boldly, go out into the world and [00:03:00] say yes, and try new things and meet new people that that's changed everything for me.

[00:03:07] CK: So, so I want to make a parallel comparison to what you're talking about, being bold in our experience at the lake. I don't think they're too dissimilar at all. Actually. I think they're very comparable to each other because in the moments when the cold is there, the instinct is to get. Especially when the numbness comes in, especially when, you know, when the heart rate it's there and then you realize like, oh my God, you know, the, we were never gonna die, but the idea will flash in front of, in the mind, our brains programmed to help us survive.

So I think it's very similar at a situation where let's say public speaking, right? We're gonna die out of . We're gonna get ex uh, communicated or, or getting kicked out, or we're gonna [00:04:00] really embarrass ourself. We're gonna die from shame or whatever the thing. How do you, uh, stay in that discomfort in that, in that, in those micro moments, when the brain is going crazy, and they're saying, get out, get out, get out, get out, whatever you can get.

[00:04:18] Fred: So much of your personal growth comes from insights that you have. And one of the key insights is exactly about this is that. The, the brain reacts to psychological danger, the same way it reacts to physical danger. So that feeling in the ice cold water is like, I'm gonna die. I've gotta get, this has gotta stop.

I I'm way too uncomfortable. That's same thing that happens to people in areas where they're under confident. Now it could be onstage, the most typical ones be because people are terrified of public speaking mm-hmm and, and, and they, [00:05:00] they get on stage. They, their memory disappears. They sweating profusely.

Their armpits are soaked. They're a lot of them are trembling and they almost can't speak they're they get tongue tied. Uh, but they can't remember what they wanted to say. They they're. And they, they radiate that panic discomfort. Mm-hmm but it's your body saying? There's danger. There's no danger. You're and, and you can't stay in it just like you stay in the water, you say, wow.

I stayed in for two minutes. I could stay for five Uhhuh. I thought I could, at 30 seconds you say, I could get the hell out Uhhuh. Right. And five minutes you say, I think I could do eight. It was, it's really bizarre. But, but it's about how do you build your boldness muscle? You build it by being uncomfortable by putting yourself in situations where you say, wow, I actually didn't die.

Uh, actually nothing bad happened [00:06:00] unless I decide to call it bad. I mean, people, I didn't do a great job of speaking, but it's, it's in the wind. I, I love the, you know, the, the thing that, that taught me the most about this thinking and this insight was standup comedy, cuz I, I did it for a while, but mm-hmm, a good friend of mine got me into it.

And he made this really important point, which he said. You know what, whether you kill it on stage or you die, it's in the wind, it's over and they're gonna forget most of what you said. And he said, so stop being attached to the experience of, of the outcome that you want to measure and just enjoy the experience of putting yourself out there and trying to make people laugh.

And it was, it was a big shift cuz I could take that and go to public speaking with prepared material that I didn't have to make people laugh every 30 seconds mm-hmm [00:07:00] and it was, it was easy by comparison and, and, but also I, I had the insight, like I I'm gonna feel a certain way, but I can take that discomfort and turn it into.

And, and it's just that you, you realize it becomes a choice after a while to, to embrace the discomfort and say, yeah, it's really not that bad. And, and I'm kind of getting used to it and I've done it with people. I've put 'em on, you know, in, in my workshops, I put 'em on stage. And by the third time they say, wow, it's, it's noticeably easier already to be on stage mm-hmm

And I said, yeah, mm-hmm you can't stay in the panic mode when there's no danger. Your brain eventually says, all right, fine.

[00:07:47] CK: Mm mm. Well, I mean, there's a lot of gems there. Um, yeah. So I, as you were speaking about the, the nervousness of getting on stage, I recall myself [00:08:00] being frozen in front of, I think it was a hundred people delivering a speech for a Toastmaster contest.

Mm-hmm I just blanked out. I forgot. I know where I wanted to go, but I forgot the segue. So I literally froze there. What it felt like millennium, like yeah, I literally just, this is silence and then, and then finally in the segue I came up with, it was, oh, I boggle my mind and the whole room, just like you erupted into huge laughter.

And then I live obviously, and, but it was such a cathartic release. Um, I was able to turn that moment into a teaching moment, a laughter moment

[00:08:40] Fred: for that. Well, it, it humanized you too, because they admire you for going up on stage, cuz they don't want to. They are afraid of that. They may want to, but they're terrified of it.

So the fact that you are doing it, they already admire you when you, when something goes [00:09:00] wrong, they just say, oh my gosh, he's he's just like me now. I would panic if that happened. And I would try to get off the stage or something, I would try to find a way to hide and you just stay in it and say, yep, my mind's a blank right now.

Uh, I'm gonna think of something interesting to say if you'll just, uh, just hang on there. Oh wait, here comes something and they just they'll. As you said, they, they just laugh. You know, I, I had a friend of mine. She, she broke a high heel on stage. uh, which as a woman is like horrifying mm-hmm the, the women in the audience were like, oh my gosh.

And she looks down at her shoes, kicks 'em off and says, I guess I gotta start spending more than $30 on shoes. right. Where I, instead of making it horrific moment, she owns them because she decided to not make it a bad thing. She made it a funny thing and she delivered the next, the rest of the speech fair barefoot.[00:10:00]

And everybody came up after and said, I can't believe you just laughed that off. You blew my mind when you did that. Well, I just made a choice.

[00:10:08] CK: So my style, we're gonna go to wherever the conversation goes. If we, if I you're off too much, let me know. Okay. This reminds me of why. So noble warrior is an expression of who I.

I love Spartan, raise, pull, bear, uh, plunges, PL medicine. You know, I purposely put myself in discomfort for the sake of my personal growth and development, you know, Toastmaster of public speaking and all these things. Yeah. So, um, so, so one of my biggest pivot about my personal development is the area of joy.

You know, only joy is the new mantra that I have. Right. And, and, and how do I stay in the intensity of whatever situation I'm in physical, social, [00:11:00] you know, psychological intensity, and then just keep repeating back the mantra, only joy, only joy, only joy. And, uh, and, and I love that, you know, uh, that you just gave that example of this woman make a joke out of it may light up the situation.

Could you say a little bit more about. Because joy is literally in your name. So yes it is. How do you, uh, what, what's your relationship with that word? Joy and how what's, what's your, yeah. What's your interpretation of that word? Joy for you?

[00:11:31] Fred: Uh, it's something I learned to embrace because it would, would happen in moments mm-hmm and then I realized like, like boldness, like choosing to be discomfort uncomfortable.

These are there's choices. There's always in either or in life. And it, and it, you, so many people say I'm angry. I, I can't help it. Well, yes you can. [00:12:00] mm-hmm you can take three breaths. You can shut up, right? Mm-hmm you don't have to react. The, the, the great quote from Victor Frankel is the, that that pause between stimulus and reaction is where all the growth happens.

Mm-hmm you cannot say anything when you're angry mm-hmm and give it time and say what you really want to say. Sometimes it's like it like an email. You write this angry email, write it. Just don't hit, send mm-hmm. see if you wanna send it tomorrow. I guarantee you, you won't want to send it tomorrow. So I started to realize this thing about myself, because I'm I'm on, on a constant path of self-awareness is I allow myself to get irritated about little things all over the place, and I thought.

The only person suffering from this irritation is me. Mm-hmm the person or the thing who's irritating me, the [00:13:00] driver or the person in line or whatever they don't know or care that they're irritating me. So I've decided I've chosen to be irritated by this thing. Mm-hmm whereas I could choose to say, wow, uh, that's really loud music or that's, you know, or, or I can hear this person chewing from three tables away or whatever.

And, and just say, isn't that interesting that, that I would let that bother me and I can choose not to.

[00:13:32] CK: So in that, so in that moment, what do you say to yourself when you notice? Oh, my irritation is flaring up. Someone cut me off and somebody's smacking their mouth while chewing or the plane got delayed, whatever the setback is, didn't go against, uh, according to your plan.

What do you do in that moment?

[00:13:52] Fred: I tell myself that I'm punishing myself by being irritated. Mm. I have to [00:14:00] Remi I have to come at it from that side. I can't just say cheer up Fred or, or , but, but that allows me to transition to something positive around me. Something to be joyful about. It's like, wow. I, I am in a car doing 70 miles an hour.

I'm moving through space. I have mm-hmm 300 horses at my disposal. Mm-hmm whereas a hundred years ago people had one mm-hmm , uh, it is pretty different. Um, and it's just, where does my attention go? Does, if I wanna focus on the thing that irritates me, I could stay irritated or I could say, you know, that guy cut me off.

It's probably in a hurry. I can choose. I could change the meaning of it. Mm-hmm and, and, and a lot of times that's the easiest thing to do is say, look, my reaction is an interpretation of mm-hmm oh, this guy's he's driving like an asshole, like really? Uh, [00:15:00] or is he just not paying attention or is he in a hurry or he's about to lose his job?

It's like, there's 20 reasons why he could have cut me off. 10 of them are selfish and 10 of them are, you know, problem. Why not choose a different one? Mm-hmm , since I'm never gonna meet the guy anyway, and all I'm doing is punishing myself by being irritated. Mm-hmm I would like to stop punishing myself.

I would like to feel good. I would like to change the chemical flow in my body.

I'm about to be arrested apparently here that no. Or

[00:15:33] CK: no rescue or rescue rescue.

[00:15:35] Fred: Yeah. Like for punishing myself, I I've called an ambulance to I've punished myself so much. I need a new colon, you know? So, so that's, that's my process and it's, it has made me a calmer, much more patient person. Mm-hmm uh, cuz I, I, you know, the other thing about being irritable is you're impatient.

Uh, [00:16:00] they, they, they work hand in hand in a negative way. Uh, you know, especially if you're IM patient about things completely out of your control, which is what we do a lot of the time is like, there's, you know, the plane's not gonna leave until the mechanic is happy, fixing the plane, and you really don't wanna fly in a plane that the mechanic is not ready to let fly.

That's right. So sitting there being impatient is really dumb and really, you know, self abuse again. So I, I I've learned it. It's, it's been amazing to experience that.

[00:16:35] CK: So I'm gonna push you a little bit. Okay. So, so in the moment those microaggressions or irritations, when it's little, we can use these mantras thought pattern interruptions as a way to bring us back to equanimity.

Centerness it's a sign of maturity. To be able to lengthen that space between stimulus and responses. You quoted Victor Franco earlier, [00:17:00] but there are moments where, um, you know, somebody punching the face, let's just say like, boom, right? Your body reacts, the defense mechanism goes up, you know, the adrenaline starts going and, and, and those mantras or, uh, breath, um, may not be sufficient during those moment when somebody punching the gut verbally or physically when that happened.

Yeah. What do you, or when social anxiety, flares up, cuz one thing you did mention a group of people who really appreciate your book are those with social anxiety, right? Yeah. So, so in those moments, when the body is going, what can they do to, uh, bring themselves back to groundedness and equanimity and neutral

[00:17:49] Fred: centerness.

I think you, you need to be able to allow a reaction mm-hmm you can, I mean, you, there, some, some things that [00:18:00] somebody punches you or somebody insults you, you're gonna have a reaction and you, and so allow yourself to have the, feel, the reaction just don't externalize the reaction necessarily. If you could just, if, if you can grab just a few seconds and not necessarily do and say, do I really wanna punch this guy back?

Do I really wanna exchange blows with this person? cause I do right now mm-hmm will I still want to in 10 minutes? And if you, if you could just say, wow, that guy I'm I'm, I'm ready to nail him one uh, and, and, but will I still want to, in a minute, In 10 minutes and sometimes you won't sometimes you'll start swinging.

And what what's important is [00:19:00] after that happens, after you get in the fight, really be keenly aware of how you feel after 10 minutes, a half an hour, a day later, mm-hmm , don't ignore how you feel because you don't feel good about that. Mm-hmm yeah. Don't, don't let yourself, and that's gonna inform the next time we're we are all flawed individuals stumbling through life mm-hmm , but we elevate ourselves to a noble warrior by getting control of that by remembering.

How it felt to, to make that choice and it didn't feel right. It didn't feel it wasn't who I wanted to be. Mm-hmm mm-hmm that's that's that to me is the, the, the Nobles pursuit is, am I as much as possible being who I want [00:20:00] to be. Mm-hmm rather than being, just being a ball of reactions and, and, and, and define who you want to be.

If you say, look, I I'm the guy that nobody, I, I stand up to everybody, you know, and I give everybody a piece of my mind and it's like, nobody's taking advantage of me. It's like, how does that actually feel? that you're in that state. Mm-hmm do you, you know, it's somehow empowering to you, but actually it's all fear based.

You're you're you are feeling, you don't feel good about yourself. And so you're trying to empower yourself in some way. You're trying to feel better about yourself, but it's not, you took the wrong direction. Yeah.

[00:20:42] CK: What, so rather than talking about theoretical, cuz it's easy to talk theoretical. Is there any personal stories where you, you have found, Hey, I was, you know, not being confident.

I was, you know, leaning to coward this more, but I, I want to be more confident. I [00:21:00] want to lean to more boners and you make it, you know, in that moment make a decision. Like I'm gonna change my life. Is there any personal story we can illustrate this point?

[00:21:11] Fred: There's there's so much that I do now that are, that I almost, as a boldness exercise mm-hmm to, to put myself in discomfort and, and build by my boldness muscle that, uh, it's, it's hard to think of them in, in recent times because the, when I do it and it's a failure, it's like, oh, that was a fail, big deal.

Mm-hmm um, and, uh, you know, that, that ability to sort of savor the failure and say, yeah, uh, it didn't didn't go that well, but there, but there's certainly been a number of times where I didn't speak up. Y you know, and it, uh, when I really should have, or, or, or [00:22:00] really wanted to, and, and, uh, the, the thing that sticks in my mind, and it was years ago, but it sticks in my mind is.

I, I was not able to give my father a eulogy at the funeral because at the time the Catholic church wouldn't let anybody speak except the priest and the altar boys, uh, or somebody who was gonna read a, a reading from the new Testament. You couldn't get up and say anything in the church. Mm. And today I would say, yeah, I'm gonna read the epistle from St.

Louis or something like that. And I would get up and read it. And then I would say, what the heck I wanted to say mm-hmm and if they wanna throw me out, try and throw me out. But most of the time I'm gonna get it all out before somebody realizes it. You know why? Because that's the most important thing in my mind is to be able to say how I felt about this person.

Mm. [00:23:00] And I, I watched my it's so interesting cuz I watched years later I watched my cousin do exactly that at a Catholic funeral for his mom. He just, he did a reading and then he went on and talked about his mom and that's all that anybody remembered from that day. They did not remember whether they, they, you know, the priest, you know, blessed them or that the, the epistle from St Paul was meaningful or not.

They care. They, they were all dialed into him saying that. And that, that experience of not doing that, that informs so many of my actions because it's like never the, the, these things happen. And I say never again. I am never gonna be that guy who hesitates, who talks himself out of it or lets somebody else make me conform.

Cuz most of the time when you conform. [00:24:00] Somebody else benefits, not you. It's, it's a, it's a, a phenomenal paradox, but most of the rules in life that are not about protecting people are to get you to conform and you don't benefit at all. And I'm, so I'm always checking that now.

[00:24:21] CK: Mm. I love that while you're speaking on the noble warrior podcast and to an audience of creators and entrepreneurs and rebels.

So, uh, definitely this is a muscle that we consciously unconsciously are, you know, cultivating over here. Um, it's really painful, at least for me, I can speak for you, but for me, if I wanted to say something, either one I chicken out or two, I didn't have to languish to say what I really wanted to say or three, I say something, but it didn't quite landed the way I wanted to land.

People [00:25:00] like turn it the total opposite, uh, of my intention. Yeah. It's, it's really painful. So, um, yeah, so I, I love this message of like leaning in, just say whatever you wanna say, and then, you know, ask for forgiveness later. If the institution doesn't

[00:25:20] Fred: agree with you. And, and I've asked for forgiveness, I've said things I've, I've been in the moment where I say, I wanna say something and I say it, and it doesn't come out.

Right. Or it doesn't land. Right. And I'll, I'll what I've learned to do instead of letting it nawe at me for the rest of my life. Cuz I didn't fix it is right then in the moment I'll say, I'll say I'm really sorry. I don't know why the hell I said that, but it's not the way I wanted to say it. And I, and I, I see that.

I see your reaction to it and I don't blame you. Mm-hmm forgive me. Let me do, do you mind if I try to say what I actually meant? Mm-hmm . and [00:26:00] it's, it's transformational to do that. Mm-hmm because it says, I, I know I'm not perfect. Sometimes I say the wrong things sometimes with the best of intentions, I say the wrong things sometimes with the worst of intentions, as I say the wrong things, either way I want to catch my, I don't want to let that linger forever with that person.

And I don't want to carry it around forever anymore. I wanna, I wanna forgive myself and I want to ask forgiveness from them.

[00:26:29] CK: I love that. You're doing the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that's a train muscle that you have done in so many? Oh, okay. I'll make it personal. So in the beginning, during my own transformational journey, I.

Kick myself and not saying certain things. And I'll think about it for a long time. And maybe a week later, I'm like, I should have said that thing. and these days, you know, obviously shorter and shorter. And then through actually the podcast, I'm now able to say what I wanted to say in a [00:27:00] much shorter time through training.

So I'm curious to know, was it a process for you as well in terms of oh yeah.

[00:27:06] Fred: Being able to, we all think that we should know how to interact with people automatically. Whereas we, we get training to get a driver's license. We get training to, to, you know, fly a plane, we get training to do math. Right. We don't, why do we don't think we could suddenly do geometry, but you know, we'd come up with PGOs Theo by ourselves, but we think we know all these social skills, it takes practice.

Just like anything else. I, you know, when I hesitate and I don't say something, I realize I need to be prepared to say something and I need to start saying the wrong thing until I say the wrong, the right thing. And it, you know, just like if you decide, you want to start talking to strangers, which is one of the things I recommend to build your boldness muscle is to talk to a [00:28:00] stranger every day.

The easiest way is to just compliment them. Now, what you're gonna do when you start is you're gonna be awkward. You're gonna be clumsy. You're gonna come off weird, but you know what? It's in the wind. It's a strange, you have no agenda except to compliment them. That's really the key. When you, when you do these kind of things, when you have no agenda, you're not worried about the failure or the success or anything.

You're practic. you know, the, when, when I'm doing curls, I have no agenda except failure. I am gonna curl till I fail. So I build my boldness muscle the same way. I'm I am gonna try stuff till I fail and go like, okay, now, now I know what I need to improve, but

[00:28:44] CK: let's zoom me on that real quick. Okay. Do you do so I, I love that because especially for the overachiever listening, they may say all I'm gonna do this.

I'm gonna achieve this outcome, get a number, or get a smile, whatever [00:29:00] the thing is. But what you are saying is not that what you are saying is you do it for the sake of just doing it. Don't worry about the outcome. You, you do it for the sake of doing. . Yes.

[00:29:11] Fred: Yes. The, if, if, and, and this is a, a social skill, and again, we have to learn this stuff because especially, let's say you're a real estate broker, and you've been told you gotta, you gotta meet a hundred people a month.

Uh, so you're out there going, I gotta meet them. They gotta know I'm a real estate broker. They, I gotta find out if they're ready to sell the house. I gotta find out what the house is. Well, I gotta, like, that's what I need to talk to. 'em about. People can smell an agenda on you in about a second and a half, whether you're trying to pick up a woman or you're trying to sell them something or get their contact information or whatever, uh, they can smell it.

So abandon it make the, the only outcome you're looking for is connection. Mm. When you do [00:30:00] that, everything. It happens magically because now it's just like, I, I was liking this to being in high school. Cuz high school was such a, a, a clumsy, shy, traumatic experience for me. But girls could smell that you were desperate.

They could tell. Uh, and, and that's what, when you have an agenda, that's what people are figuring out is you have something to get from them when your only goal is to connect with them. Maybe your only goal is to make them feel good about themselves. Say, you know, that, that, that beard looks great on you.

Uh, or, and you'll, and you'll get so good at doing it. Like when I do it as a drive by I say like, I'm not doing it to start a conversation. I am literally giving a compliment and then I'm gone. Mm-hmm and you can see the reaction on people's faces because they, they just [00:31:00] take it in. And you get, you get creative about it.

Cuz at first you wanna compliment something like you see an attractive woman, you say you're really beautiful. Okay. She hears that a lot. Yeah. Compliment her on her shoes, on her handbag. All of a sudden she spent a lot of time picking those things out. You come up with some, something else to say, I I've evolved it to the, you know, because of course I'm irritated by everything.

Uh, if, if, if I see something weird on somebody that I have a judgment about, I make myself compliment them on that one thing. If I think their purple hair looks ridiculous, I am gonna say that hair is really working for you. It looks amazing. And you know what? It changes my judgment of them and they clearly have purple hair for a reason.

So it makes them feel good. You know, whatever the heck it is. If I think people have a, you know, [00:32:00] way too many tattoos, I'll say that ink looks amazing. And it allows me to get rid of my judgment at the same time, as I make them feel better about myself. But this is a life skill. This is, this is

[00:32:12] CK: case practice.

Okay. So, so this is noble warrior again. So we talk a lot about warrior spirit. Yeah. Right? So that warrior spirit, what my interpretation, what you're saying is leaning to your judgment. Not, not, let's see. Maybe that's that came out wrong. Let me rephrase. You don't have

[00:32:30] Fred: to apologize. So I was not hurt by that.

[00:32:32] CK: Yeah. Not a ING. Just rephrasing here. Refinement. Right? Precision. That's what we're about. Mm-hmm so, um, what was I, all right, so whenever you notice your judgment, rather than going with it, You are, um, doing the total opposite because you notice that's a bias, that's a judgment. So you're taking action as a way to refine to Polish, to hone your, your own self.

So then you can come back to [00:33:00] neutrality. Did I interpret

[00:33:02] Fred: what you say correctly? Yes. Because if your, if your goal is connection, we're gonna tie this together. Now, if your goal is connecting and you have a judgment, the insight that you develop is that 98% of the time, your judgment is wrong. Mm-hmm okay.

And so, because once you get to know anybody, we're all flawed human beings, bumbling through life, trying to, trying to find our way. And when you can offer something positive to somebody that you had a negative thing. It, it, it there's a double healing going on, right. You've elevated them and you fix yourself because that what I've learned, the more I connect with people, I have, I have met people that I have, like a, like six judgments about them based on their shirt and their, their hair [00:34:00] and who they're with and, and everything.

And then if I engage them, I'll find out I am wrong about everything and I've done it so much that I don't trust my, my drive by judgments at all I say, and that's why I wanna reverse it because I've been wrong. My insight is, and we, and I, and they're doing it too. They're having judgements about me. And so I don't have to take on their hostility or rejection or rudeness or anything.

they're having a judgment about the, about me that may or may that's based on my hair, you know, mm-hmm, , it's based on my shoes. It's based on, on my teeth, who the heck knows. Maybe my nose seems too big for them and they hate people with big noses and they don't even know why I they're doing it too. So I let it go.

I don't have to take on their behavior towards me because it's not [00:35:00] accurate. If somebody rejects me, I don't have to believe I'm a bad person or an unworthy person. I could just say they don't know me.

[00:35:08] CK: Mm. So I, I have a question for you, Fred, and, and here, cuz you actually quote, allows in your book. I think one of the first lines in the chapter is yeah, I can't remember exactly what the quote is, but

[00:35:23] Fred: let go of who I's am that's that's right.

I discover who I can

[00:35:27] CK: become. That's right. That's right. That's right. So, so. I, I assume you appreciate the ying and the yang of things in life. Yes. Yeah. Okay, good. So there's times for action. You're obviously very biased towards action. You want to take action? And there are times for stillness, contemplation, surrendering.

So, so can you IUC the a for S cuz on the surface, if I were just read a book, I was like, oh, Fred's all about action. Action. Action. Can you tell us a little bit [00:36:00] about the time for stillness for contemplation, for inaction?

[00:36:11] Fred: I, I think that that, because I'm basically a bold introvert mm-hmm that I, there are, there are a lot of time that I am alone. because as a writer, you have to spend time alone. Mm-hmm but as a writer, you also have to learn to collaborate. You have to learn to work with an editor. You have to learn to let people read and critique your stuff.

Mm-hmm otherwise you're just writing for yourself. Mm-hmm . So there are, there are times when I find myself racing in two or three directions mentally, or in terms of activity, and I've learned to give myself permission to just stop and say, let, let, let the, the [00:37:00] rollercoaster run without me for a while.

Mm-hmm . and, and again, it's, it's that same thing as, as, as acquiring patience, acquiring calmness, which, you know, really understanding the power of breath and, and, uh, the, the power of meditation. I mean, I learned, I was lucky enough to learn meditation in the seventies and it, and it just, I'm in a, I can be in a situation.

I could be on a, on a loud bus, let's say, or a subway, and I can drop into a meditation in 30 seconds, uh, because I've, I've done it so much. And I, and I can, and that may only grab five or 10 minutes, but my appreciation for stillness came before my appreciation for boldness mm. And so it's always it, you know, it, and [00:38:00] I, I've never thought about how that it's a nice stack to have.

Um, but it, you know, I see a lot of people that are just, they're like in, in mad pursuit of everything and they, they never stop for, for a moment of calmness or stillness or self-reflection. Um, and it, it actually diminishes your creativity. If you're an entrepreneur, if you're not giving yourself the space to not think about your problems at some point almost every day, then you won't solve a lot of those problems.

Because when you stop thinking about it, you say, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna think about any of this stuff. I'm gonna, I'm gonna just get some other input or I'm gonna get no input. We live in a world of unlimited input. You know how many people, you know, the, the last thing they do is, you know, scroll through Instagram.

And the first thing they do when they get up, they [00:39:00] like, they never stop with the input. I, I learned early the value of no input for some, for, to create balance in life. And which is why, you know, and the other thing that happens when you now with that, you couple that with boldness, there's a, a humility that comes with being super bold because you realize there's always more that you can do and your awareness just increases and you just say, okay, I.

Experience something. Now I can reflect on it. What is, there's always something in the experience to that requires reflection, whether you journal about it or you meditate on it, or you have a coach that you talk to about it, that all of those things allow you the power of reflection instead of [00:40:00] like constant forward motion, uh, and activity.

A lot of times activity is a way to hide from self-awareness. Mm. And if you gotta find out if that's what you're doing,

[00:40:12] CK: mm. What you just said right there, that is a key nugget. I, I love that. Can you double click on that? Hiding behind being busy, hiding behind activities, hiding behind, you know, go,

[00:40:24] Fred: go hiding behind activity, uh, is a way of avoiding being self-aware or avoiding self reflection.

[00:40:31] CK: Mm. Um, any specific personal stories or client stories that you can help illustrate that? Like how then, then let me contextualize this question a little bit, perhaps give you some time to think about this is overachiever like to consume input because they think more and more, more, more activities, more input equals better throughput.

Yeah. Reality, you know, it's the ying and the yang, right? You gotta take [00:41:00] action and then contemplate, you know, uh, jiggle the, um, the mind at how you think about it and then take new action accordingly versus using the same mindset. Keep taking the same action. Then you gotta just keep having the same results.

Yeah. If you wanna keep growing and, and then up spiraling, you know, uh, contemplation and action to me is it's a great way to think about the inhale and the. .

[00:41:27] Fred: Yeah, and it there's, there's so much, so many directions. I can go with this. I, I remember this story of this, this very famous advertising guy from the sixties name is David Ogelvie mm-hmm

Uh, and he, he ran, uh, one of the most creative agencies in, in the sixties. And he had a little note that he kept in his pocket all, all the time. And it, the note said simply I might be wrong. Mm-hmm . And it's, there's a [00:42:00] lot of that you, you know, especially in this polarized world that we live in, you know, when I'm in a conversation with somebody with pretty much the opposite political views, I'm willing to sit there and say, I might be wrong about how I see this.

I want to know how you see it rather than saying I've got all the answers about why you are not right. I want to know why you think that way. But I see a lot of people terrified of being wrong of changing their minds. Look at, look at how bad it is for a politician to flip flop. Right? It's like a career ending thing.

It's like, no, no. Why don't I want a leader who can change his mind when he gets more information when she, that is

[00:42:45] CK: a very, that is a very definition of learning.

[00:42:49] Fred: Yes.

[00:42:50] CK: Yes. The very definition of learning and growth is you change your mind based on new data coming in.

[00:42:56] Fred: Yes. Yeah. And all of science is based on [00:43:00] that.

It's like, this was true until we found out something that was more true or completely different. That's right. Um, and so, uh, I, I think it's so easy to. Ignore that very simple thing that odds are, you're not a hundred percent, right? Whether you're arguing with your spouse or, uh, or, you know, making recomme, I making recommendations on the stock market or something like that.

Like, and, and, but people do it in, in politics, in religion, the two things that are entirely based on beliefs, there's almost nothing factual about either of 'em you, the things that people believe in their faith are beliefs. They're not facts. Okay. There is no video of Moses coming down with the, the, the 10 commandments.

So we believe that it happened something like that. Uh, and [00:44:00] that God inspired him, but it's all belief. It didn't, there's, there's nothing factual about it. And there's, and when you say, oh, when George Bush does this, it's it's, you know, it's gonna end America. It's like, you believe that, but it's not, there's nothing factual.

And the worst thing is when it turns out not to be true, people don't reflect on that and say, not only I might be wrong, I actually was wrong. you know, they don't, they don't let the input in because the confirmation bias has become such a strong feature of our society at this point. But. That the liberating and, and the other direction I could end up going into is how perfectionism keeps us from doing things.

Mm-hmm it's like, oh, like, I can't, I can't like if I want to do standup comedy, I would say, no, I gotta have 30 minutes of rock, solid material before I'll take the stage.

[00:44:57] CK: Yeah. I gotta be Dave Chappelle [00:45:00] before I step onto stage


[00:45:01] Fred: day one. Right. Which is even Dave Chappelle. Doesn't do that. He says, I'm gonna go up and try this half finished joke and see if I can finish it.

Mm-hmm right. That's how, that's how all those guys work. Chris rock goes in at one in the morning into these New York clubs and try stuff out. And over the course of a year, he develops 90 minutes of incredibly strong material. Perfectionism is an excuse for not acting. Until you until you, oh, I don't want to do karaoke cuz I, I don't, I don't have a perfect voice.

I haven't picked out the perfect song and practiced it. Do these other people seem like they're practiced. Like they're they just had enough drinks where they're willing to try to get up and sing, you know, an ACDC song. It's, you know,

SOS a real trap. It's a, it's a trap for introverts. It's a trap for the UN bold.

[00:45:53] CK: Yep. Great. I'm a recovering perfectionist. So let me ask you a pointed question there.

[00:45:59] Fred: Right? I'm [00:46:00] CK and I'm recovering perfectionist. I'm a recovering

[00:46:02] CK: perfectionist. When I'm, when I'm unconscious, I lean towards more preparation.

My excuse is let me rationalize. I gotta prepare da da. Right? And then I don't take enough. So to me there's a real polarity or tension there. And then for me is to find a sweet spot in the middle. Right. Preparation, not preparation, but not too much enough action, but not too much. Right. So that's that, that synergy between the two.

So, so how do you, what's your mental model about preparing, but not preparing too much taking action, but not just foolish in taking action without updating your operating system. Does that make sense? Yeah. How do you, you know, find a sweet spot in the middle?

[00:46:47] Fred: I, I have, uh, found that I, I like being somewhat unprepared.

Um, I don't like being not prepared is, is just dumb. Right. [00:47:00] like, um, and that's one of the steps. I have five steps to how you do your boldness exercises in my book. And the first step is preparation, but it's preparation. To step in and probably be uncomfortable. It's preparation, knowing you could fail in some of the exercises it's preparation to deliberately fail to just to just go so far into something that you're assuming this isn't gonna work.

And if it works, you're shocked and surprised then you're and rewarded, but you're aiming for failure, but

[00:47:34] CK: what? Oh, interesting. Well, hold on. So you interesting, so you, you prepare enough knowing that you are underprepared, that you are most likely gonna fail. That's

[00:47:45] Fred: I want the tension of being slightly under unprepared.

When I, I, you know, I've done lectures that are five minutes to all day, uh, and. I prepare [00:48:00] it, but it is not memorized. I'm I want the discovery in the moment. I may, let's say, let's say I see, uh, somebody in Starbucks that I, I want to go talk to. I am gonna prepare what I'm gonna go say to them, Uhhuh . But in the moment I could change that completely because my preparation has become my fallback because I'm being bold.

I'm saying in the moment, like, what else I got this? I could say those are, those are really, you know, uh, amazing earrings that you have. I see, that's my prep. And I walk up and I notice she has amazing crystal blue eyes Uhhuh. Now I can, I can go that way cuz I, I, I have the comfort of being prepared, but the tension of discovery.

Mmm, love. And I do that. I do that on stage all the time. And, uh, some of my best [00:49:00] stuff happens on stage. Uh, when I, when I veer off script or if I'm react to something in the audience, I love questions from the audience and, and I'll go off on a tangent and I'll just say, does anybody know where the heck I was?

And somebody knows, I love that, that, that, you know, like, cuz I'll go off on, I'll get sparked on some tangent and I'll cover it. But I can't remember where, where I was in, in the lecture. And then somebody yells out, oh, you talking about such and such. And I'm like, oh great, thank you. This is nowhere. It all always in the audience, you know?

Yeah. You're

[00:49:34] CK: co-creating with them rather than being the guru who knows everything who says perfect things that well,

[00:49:40] Fred: and, and that's, that's a, a speaker technique as well is instead of knowing everything, have the audience, tell you something, you already know. Because it's suddenly they're, they're engaged.

They're like what? Whoa, I, I might know this. I gotta think about this. Um,

[00:49:57] CK: got it. So let me recap real quick. So [00:50:00] what I'm taking away from what the point that you're making, you're not saying not to prepare what I'm hearing is prepare, but don't be attached to whatever the point that you want to make, leave room for spontaneity from the miraculous, from the magical moments from the, in the moment decision that shows up.

That's my takeaway from the point that you're making, is that correct?

[00:50:24] Fred: Yeah. Preparation is the foundation for

[00:50:29] CK: beautiful. Okay. Did you want to go through the pride altogether or should we move forward? Well, that,

[00:50:37] Fred: so, so that's, that's one of those things. The next step is, is so the pride method is the systematic way that you build your boldness muscle and do a bunch of the exercises in the book.

But also when you're in a moment of. Under confidence, cuz we have situational confidence. We are confident in certain [00:51:00] situations in our life and we are under confident in other situations. And it's different for everybody. You may be able to walk into a room and meet everybody in the room and another.

And so you have situational confidence, but one on one you're too anxious. Maybe. Uh, I've seen people like that there. And whereas the rest of the people go like, oh, a room full of people. That's totally intimidating. I like the one on one thing. So their situational confidence is everybody is different and everybody's different.

The idea of being super bold is to radiate confidence in every situation to, to, to know how to be bold, even when you don't feel confident, cuz this is the great paradox is you build your confidence by being taking bold action and being bold. Mm-hmm not waiting till you feel confident enough to be bold.

It's it's an inter it's the opposite of what people think. Well, I can't really do that. I don't feel confident enough. And I say, that's why you're [00:52:00] gonna do it. to, to build the boldness, cuz you're gonna find out you didn't die. Number one and number two, you're gonna get a little better at it. Mm-hmm by doing it.

Um, and then, and then reflecting on it. And so, and then what happens is your confidence expands? So the pride method is a five step process, which is preparation, which we talked about. And I obviously go into much more detail on it, relaxing, which is understanding how to physically relax your body. Cuz a lot of people don't have any idea how to do it, how to just release their physiology, like acknowledge the tension in their body and release it and then just breathe.

Trust the power of. A lot of people, they get anxious, they stop breathing, which I'm sure on the African plane was very helpful. When the saber tooth tiger was stalking us, as our reflex is don't breathe. Very, not helpful [00:53:00] in social situations or, or social anxiety situations. You need air, you need oxygen.

And so, and, but when you really do it there, you know, and I talk about vibrating, the VA nerve and all of that stuff. There's, there's all, there's great techniques to almost instantaneously relax yourself. And when you relax yourself, you suddenly realize you can relax yourself. Just like when you notice, you're nervous, you go, oh crap.

I'm nervous makes you more nervous. Right? Mm-hmm it spirals up. But as soon as you apply any technique to relax yourself, you say, wow, I'm, I'm actually in control of my state. I can relax myself, which relaxes you more. What's your go

[00:53:41] CK: to relaxation technique. If you let's say meeting whoever, and then you notice you're nervous.

What's your go to technique to come back

[00:53:50] Fred: to you? My, my number one technique is my physiology, cuz like it's I'm I know, I, I notice I'm doing something I'm like my [00:54:00] body language is radiating how anxious I am and I'll just shake it, shake it down. Like I'll, I'll just release it. Um, if I'm going on stage and it's like 5,000 people and I'm going, wow, this is, uh, this is intense.

This is, this is a big crowd here. Mm-hmm um, I'll just do three deep breaths before I go on stage and I'll just feel the settling and then I'll just, now I'm just energized. It's like get me out there. Mm. And you know, any, any nervousness has now turned into. Mm. Mm. And so, uh, but if you really, you know, the vagus breath, vibrating, the vagus nerve, which runs all down the center of your body and controls a lot of your auto autonomic nervous system, if you just take three breaths and let 'em out slowly going ha and vibrating that nerve, I I'm abbreviating it, but you do that.

You'll be amazed at how much more relaxed you are in, in about 45 seconds. Just doing that three [00:55:00] times. Cause the you've you've taken control of your autonomic nervous system at that moment. Mm-hmm and it's nobody teaches you that nobody taught me that in high school, I was just nervous all the time. um, relaxing.


[00:55:15] CK: actually, can I share a couple of techniques since you're on that point? Yeah, sure. By may, may or may not be useful. So, one thing that I do is, uh, similar to you activate the physiology. But then I'll VI, so I'll push against the wall, but I'll visualize, I'm giving away all of my nervousness and all of my tension into the wall or into the ground.

So that way it actually helps me not only relax my physiology, but also there's a meaning associated with it. And then that was very helpful to me whenever I can notice myself being nervous. Yeah. Well

[00:55:50] Fred: then one of the funny things they tell speakers is just imagine you're naked on stage and it's like that doesn't work.

That's a terrible thing to do. imagine everybody else is naked. [00:56:00] That might work Uhhuh. That might relax you.

[00:56:03] CK: But another thing is, uh, there's a, um, plant medicine called mambe. I don't know if you ever had that if before, but it's a very relaxing, has a very relaxing, uh, effect. Uh, it's non psychoactive. It's just a very relaxing effect on, on the body.

So you may want to give

[00:56:21] Fred: that a shot. Yeah. And it, when you create those things, you create, uh, a trigger effect of like, oh, I'm, I am relaxing myself. The first sip of that, you St your body says, oh, I know what to do. I I'm gonna relax. Mm-hmm mm-hmm uh, which is what you want. You wanna start triggering that rather than triggering anxiety or nervousness?

[00:56:43] CK: Mm-hmm mm-hmm so that's relaxation was the third

[00:56:47] Fred: insights, and we talked about some of them, but it's like having insights about yourself and social interaction. The big insight that bold people know is that people are not [00:57:00] thinking about you anywhere near as much as you think they are. They're thinking about themselves.

So we spent, we think everybody's thinking about this and they remember that. And they, we carried this embarrassment around for 15 years and the people who were there going, I don't remember that but you know, you can still relive it and still re feel the embarrassment. They're not thinking about you.

Stop worrying. Bold people have a handful of people whose opinions really matter to them. And then everybody else is a zero or a one, unless they're a potential customer or, or somebody that, that they want to influence, or that they, they are looking for some value from, you know, you, you, you should be your family, your spouse, your best friends, and your mentors, your coaches, those opinions should matter.

The rest of the people. Why, you know, when people say, oh, they're all gonna laugh at me. I say, do you know them? Why would you [00:58:00] care? Mm-hmm , you know, uh, bold people say, you know, other people's opinions of me are none of my business mm-hmm and they just, they proceed on. And the more you can do that, the more you realize that you're attaching yourself to people who are having judgments about you, just like you're having about them.

Remember I talked about this. Are, are there judgements about you accurate? How could they possibly be accurate just by looking at you or hearing the first thing you say, this could be the worst day of their life or the worst day of my life. And there's no reason to try to assess who I am by that. So, and the other insight we talked about is, uh, nothing bad happens unless you decide to label it that way.

Like we talked about things on stage. So what I, what were you gonna say?

[00:58:46] CK: I was gonna say, uh, one quote from Dr. Sues was super helpful to me and paraphrase those that matter won't mind, those that mind don't matter. [00:59:00] So I really appreciate that thought. And as continuing being a way to remind myself to really speak my mind to our earlier point, and obviously it takes skill to continue to do that more skillfully, but, um, but that's the source of it, you know, just really, you know, 7 billion people on earth.

Most of 'em won't agree with me that that's okay. What's more important is to find my tribe and then really speak my mind to my fullest, potency and authenticity. And those that resonates with my vibration, with my, with my energy will come to me and say, Hey, I really like what you

[00:59:35] Fred: said. And I, I train people in speaking.

Uh, and one of the things I say is. Whenever I have an audience, 5% of them will think I'm a complete idiot. And 5% of them will think I'm the most brilliant person they've ever heard. They're both wrong. Mm-hmm right. But they will exist. I will never, I will never change either of them. I'm [01:00:00] working on the people who are open to some sort of insight or interpretation.

And actually if I get 10% of them to have an insight, that's home run for me. Mm. The rest of 'em, you know, they, they weren't ready for it. It'll hit 'em later, or it'll never hit 'em or it won't matter. I I'm not getting everybody, I don't not getting anywhere near everybody. Um, if one person comes up to me at the end and said, I've waited all my life to hear this, I get it.

Now I get what I'm doing wrong with my life. That's all I don't, I, the other thousand people, I hope they got something, but I'm, I'm paid off. I'm I'm golden. So, um, that, and those, you know, and there's more insights I talk about in the book, but understanding people's opinions and understanding that nothing bad happens unless you decide to label it that way mm-hmm will, will transform your boldness because you don't have to label that bold move, going [01:01:00] wrong as wrong.

It's just to step up bold people. Look at failures as a step up. It's just information. And that's, that's a powerful transformation. Then dosage is the D in the pride method really important is controlling the intensity of the experience. All of life is about dosage. You know, take one, aspirin, headache goes away, take a hundred aspirin.

You're dead, right? you can die from shrinking too much water that's right. Uh, you know, uh, which is essential to staying alive and we're 80% water that's right. But. Everything socially, physically is about dosage. You know, if you're exercising, if you work out, if you do curls with three pounds, you're never gonna get any stronger.

You have to go to strain. But if you try to do a bench press with 300 pounds and you've never lifted before, it's gonna fall on your chest cavity and crush you mm-hmm . So [01:02:00] there's the do the dosage is it is everywhere in life and it is everywhere in boldness, as well as building your boldness muscle. You start simply you start by smiling at people.

You start then. Talking to strangers, you start then by having a small conversation, never being concerned about the on outcome so that when it matters, which is what the, my training is all about is so that you radiate confidence when it matters. You take bold action when it matters. Cause there will be windows of opportunity in your life and we hesitate and the window closes and it never opens again.

And those very often are pivotal moments in our lives meeting that key person accepting, quitting, that job, asking for divorce, whatever the hell it is, uh, you know, uh, asking [01:03:00] for a raise, starting a business, abandoning the business, cuz the marketplace says we're not interested. All, all these are, these are all.

Bold choices that, that we make, but we have to build the boldness muscle to take the action.

[01:03:19] CK: So, quick question there matters. So quick question there. I love that, that you mentioned when it matters, right? When, when the window opportunity opens, that's, that's really why we go to the gym. I, I, I think in one of your previous, um, podcast interviews, you mentioned you don't go to the gym just in case, you know, a 300 pound something, you know, that you need happens to be

[01:03:42] Fred: on your chest and you need to get it off your,

[01:03:44] CK: you do it for the, for the moment when there's something, you know, functional that happen, you need to lift 200 pounds.

So that's a great way to think about it. So quick question, double clicking on that for the overachiever, they look at Fred and say, [01:04:00] Fred said he can speak in front of 5,000 people. And right now I have social anxiety. Let me make a big OUS goal of speaking in front of 5,000 people. They try to do 5,000 people for a shot and guess what?

Oh, you know, debilitated by this anxiety overdose, right. Overdose. I'm such a failure. That means just not think about

[01:04:22] Fred: speaking was humil embarrassing. That's traumatic, like got PTSD about speaking for the

[01:04:28] CK: rest of my life. That's right. So in terms of setting goals, are you in the camp of big hair goals or are you more in the incremental.

Meet go to wherever you are at and stretch yourself accordingly, and then stretch yourself all the way up to 5,000. What's your, uh, mental model when you think about, um, setting appropriate

[01:04:52] Fred: goals. So don't open those. I mean, both camps I'm in, I, I believe in big, hairy, audacious goals, but don't [01:05:00] believe for a second that just say I'm gonna speak and, and get up and do a affirmation every morning and say, I'm gonna be speaking in front of 5,000 people.

Mm-hmm is gonna make you capable of speaking in front of 5,000 people. You are going to have to build up. Mm-hmm you could say my audacious goal is I'm gonna run an ultra-marathon if you just don't do. and then just wait till the one is scheduled. You're not gonna finish. Okay. You're not even gonna get close to finishing an ultra.

You probably won't finish the 26.1 miles of a regular marathon, um, without falling down and dying pretty much, but so I'm, I'm about like have audacious goals. Believe you can make a huge impact on the world. Mm-hmm but know that it's, it starts. With the first building that step, just like speaking, you start by that's Toastmasters.

Brilliant for teaching you how to speak because you start speaking to a group of people that are all there encouraging you. [01:06:00] And you're doing a five minute talk. Nobody's gonna hire you to do a five minute talk, but you're controlling the dosage. So it doesn't overwhelm you. So you go five. That was easy.

I can do 10. I can do 15. I'm getting better at this. I'm feeling comfortable. I'm not tongue tied anymore. I, I, you know, I I've done lectures. Totally unprepared. Three hour lectures. Mm-hmm they said, you know, we don't want you to do the top of your talking about, can you just do questions? Yeah. I'll do three hours of questions.

Mm-hmm um, well, but because I've done. I haven't done, you know, I didn't start by saying, I don't think I need to do a lecture. I'm just gonna answer questions and the audience goes, well, we don't have any questions. . So now what, um, so you, the controlling the dosage of the experience to build that boldness muscle till you're strong, when it matters, cuz it will mat, there will be times when it matters and you do not want to [01:07:00] hesitate.

Hesitation is the opportunity killer.

[01:07:04] CK: So say more about that. So self doubt, hesitation in a moment where a very attractive woman, uh, or, or man walks by and you want to have it quick moment of connection. uh, I don't know if you ever experienced that, that moment passed and then you go, ah, man, should have done it.

Oh yeah.

[01:07:25] Fred: I I've lost track. I mean, that, that, that was one of the primary motivators for becoming boulders. I said, like, I can't miss any more of these opportunities because what you'll stand there and say, I want to go talk to her. I want to go meet her. Um, and you stand there long enough and somebody else walks over and talks to her.

Mm-hmm , that's me. Now. I'm the one who walks over and talks to her while you're still thinking about it. But what, what happens is you've built up in her mind that she's the most amazing person in the world and she could be your [01:08:00] potential wife or whatever the heck it is that you're telling yourself. So you've made it almost impossible to be relaxed.

Mm-hmm and you are wrong about the, the, the odds of her being that person are like a thousand to one. So what you should do to the dosage is. Talk to anybody in the room, talk to the whatever woman you see in the wo, just walk up and introduce yourself to her. I pick out the wallflower in the room. Now, the person who's, who's, who's looking at the books or looking at the albums, or like, you know, the album covers or whatever, or, you know, staring at the food buffet, endlessly.

I just go introduce myself to them because I used to be them. I want to like pull them out and start introducing them to people and stuff. But it's you start. With that simple increment so that you don't, you, you realize that your hesitation is the problem that you don't have to be confident. You just have to go.

[01:09:00] If you walk up to her, you gotta say something, it's probably gonna be wrong, but you're gonna get better at it. And it doesn't matter because she's not the perfect person. Anyway, mm-hmm, , you're trying to get good at that because when the perfect person. Happen to be there, you walk over and you've got game.

You, you talk like a normal person and have a normal conversation with her rather than I, I really need to get to know you you're so bored or whatever. It's like, what are you doing? Like, it's like, you know, your, your, your agenda is really clear. Um, they're desperate. Um, but, and, and then, and that, you know, obviously it's a great example because it's, it's you wanna be able, this is one of the great things about boldness is to be able to meet anybody you want to meet doesn't necessarily mean like for dating, it's valuable, but if you're already married, it's not valuable.

But if you're looking for, for to find [01:10:00] somebody, you wanna expose yourself to a bunch of, no, that's the wrong term, but I mean, you, you wanna meet a variety of people so that when that person. Comes along that you might actually have a great connection with you can, you can have a normal conversation. Mm.

But you also, you see somebody really interesting that you want to meet. Maybe it's sir, Richard Branson, maybe it's Jeff Bezos. Maybe it's Ken Ru Kowski, you know, whatever it is, you, you see somebody and you say, I want to go talk to him. And instead of playing the unworthiness tape, which is what everybody does, right.

I'm not, he doesn't wanna talk to me. I'm not interesting enough. I'm not successful enough. We, we, we got the 50 things we tell ourselves about why we should be. The bold person walks over and says, Hey, I really think you're doing amazing stuff with Amazon, but, uh, I'm waiting for the drones. I want the drones mm-hmm and [01:11:00] BSO goes, the, the drones are coming, buddy.

The drones are coming. He's like, just, you know, uh, are you a prime member? Well, yeah, I'm a prime member. Of course I'm a prime member, you know, and, and a way you go having a conversation mm-hmm and the, and I have, I have met people. I have admired incredibly and been able to let them know how much I admired them without being a drooling fan and had really interesting conversation with them almost always, or just did a drive by compliment.

I've met actors that I really admire that I just was able to walk up and say, I, I just wanted to tell you how much I admire your work. I don't want to disturb you or draw attention to you, but, um, I really appreciate all the work you've done. Mm-hmm and if you don't know their name, don't do that because there's nothing more insulting than going up to an actor and going like, what's your name?

You're that guy. And I was like, get the hell away from those people. right. That's you know, like [01:12:00] if you don't know their name, don't go up to them. Don't ask 'em who they are. Don't ask, don't say, you're that guy that was on Seinfeld once, once. And what's your name? No, don't do that. Yeah. That means you, you don't have permission to walk up to them.

That's basically what you need to know. Yeah. The

[01:12:15] CK: intention, the intention is different pain acknowledgement versus trying to get associated with that

[01:12:21] Fred: level. Well, and which is, which is why. And every time I've met any of these people that I really wanted to meet, I have never asked for a selfie. You know why?

Because a selfie is just pretending, you know, them to all your friends, which you Don. Mm, but they're polite enough to stand next to you and smile. You're not buddies. They didn't give you their number. Okay. So why we're looking at FaceTime and going like, oh, look at who he met. That's amazing. Like, no, it's not amazing.

The person was just being

[01:12:49] CK: nice. Mm-hmm mm-hmm it was, um, so I met Ken back in two, 2012, uh, when I was at the Ted conference [01:13:00] and being at the Ted conference was a great teaching moment for me, cuz I get to sit right next to Larry Page and then, you know, set golden and Jeff Bezos, all those people. And it was really cool.

I'm I'm saying this not because I'm dropping names, I'm saying this because it's really cool to watch how human they are. Let's say at a regular party place when there's nothing going on, what people typically do is they just play with their drinks and standing very awkwardly by themselves. Yeah. And that's normal people.

And then guess what? Those people, they do the same thing.

[01:13:39] Fred: yeah, yeah. Human. You could just walk up to them and talk to them. Yeah. Just,

[01:13:44] CK: you know, they're is awkward and perhaps even more so, you know, cuz they're all nerds and geeks, you know, growing up. So it was, uh, it was, uh, really cool to actually like just humanizes these people that you, I admire, um, [01:14:00] for the work that they do and uh, and then be, be normal with them.

[01:14:05] Fred: Yeah. And, and these people, all of these people and they may have worked really hard at something, but they got lucky. They just, they found, you know, the right thing at the right time. Uh, and then, and then worked it hard, but they're, they still struggle. I mean, you know, Bezos has the most spectacular divorce in history, you know, mm-hmm so, uh, richest man in the world for a while and somehow.

Can't can't stay married. So it's, it's it's you again, we're all just human beings, trying to find our way and give everybody the space to do that. Uh, and, uh, it will make a huge difference, uh, instead of

[01:14:50] CK: is Bo experiments. Cause primarily what we've been talking about is meeting people and having human interactions, do they transfer to [01:15:00] other things?

So let's say I develop bold muscle in interacting with people. Does that translate to my starting a business or, um, you know, having a podcast, whatever the things that, you know, meeting the right partner in life does it? Well, we,

[01:15:17] Fred: we talked about speaking. It takes boldness to say, I, I, I wanna. Be a speaker.

It takes boldness to write a book and say, look, I'm gonna, I think I can create something that people will wanna read. It takes boldness to start a business to say, I I'm gonna take these risks. I mean, if you don't, if you decide to play it safe your entire life, is that really what you want on your tombstone?

He played it as safe as possible every day. Uh that's no, I, I wanna have tried stuff and, and succeeded at some of it and knowing that I was gonna fail at some of it. Um, but, but I didn't, I didn't [01:16:00] miss an opportunity because, oh, you know, this, I could fail at that. I, I, you know, I, I was lucky enough to be bold in terms of adrenaline sort of stuff.

And I was able to translate it and say like, I'm not afraid to bungee jump. Why am I afraid to get on stage? And, and just say, it's all in my head. Uh, and so whatever you are doing in life, what, whatever you're pursuing in life, if there isn't an element of risk that you're walking in that zone where it's like, I'm not safe.

I'm not, I'm not, you know, ideal for this. And I don't have all the skills yet for this. That's how you get somewhere, you know? No, nobody who started a business runs that business exactly the way they started it. There's no way that that happens because the marketplace is gonna tell you [01:17:00] what, what it wants and you're gonna have to adjust to that marketplace.

And probably every year or two or three, I mean, you and I have grown up in an era where, where businesses that seem like they would last forever are, are, are going down the drain, like general electric or something like who could imagine that general electric stock would be a bad buy, uh, you know, five years ago.

Um, but I mean, this is, this is the cycle of life is, you know, we try, we take risks and bold. The, the more risks you take, the more payoffs you get, and it takes boldness to take risks by definition. There's no guarantee that it's gonna work. That's

[01:17:39] CK: true. How, how do you evaluate, uh, risk tolerances and, and, you know, real risk that may.

End resulting real death or death of a, you know, relationship or company, whatever the, the thing is versus risk that's. Um, that's made up by the mind [01:18:00] cause you're not advocating just being foolish and Hey, there's a cliff. Jump off the

[01:18:06] Fred: cliff. That's not, we could, it's a different thing. When you're starting a business, there's you have to protect your downside risk.

You have to get as much help as you can to, to create and launch this business, this product or service without just saying, oh, I think everybody's gonna love this. I'm just gonna make this widget. Uh, even though I don't know where I'm gonna make it, uh, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna raise a hundred thousand dollars from my family.

Uh, and then I'm gonna see if I can pull it off now. It's. The, that takes real preparation. You, you, you don't wanna learn on somebody else's dime, uh, how to run a business, uh, unless you're willing to do whatever it takes to make that business. The, the thing that, that two things that make business [01:19:00] person successful hunger and persistence, and the persistence comes from the hunger.

It's like, I gotta make this work. The, you know, I'm, I am hungry to make this work. And also, uh, I'm committed to make this work. You know, my, I, when I started my business, we got to the point where we had signed personally on so much debt that we had to make it work. You know? Cuz you signed, when you start a business, you signed personally on the lease five year lease.

Doesn't matter if the business lasts two years, you're still paying the lease personally or you're going personally bankrupt. So we had all of this stuff saying we, we gotta figure it out. So a lot of it is just committing the, the boldness is saying, I am gonna do whatever it takes to succeed the world.

It's gonna stop me. I'm not gonna


[01:19:49] CK: me. Was there ever a moment where you questioned, you know, the faith on yourself or, you know, God, or, you know, your community, your co-founders, where it was [01:20:00] tested, where you almost lost your faith?

[01:20:07] Fred: I was naive enough at the beginning to think I could do it no matter what . And then by the, by a certain point, after surviving enough near death experiences of the business, you realize how that most likely you can pull out of it. Mm-hmm um, just by showing up every day, not like saying, oh, this is the, you know, worrying about it gets you done gets nothing done.

Mm-hmm so. When you say, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work the problem. I'm gonna work this problem this day. And I, we just, it got to the point where we said, we're just gonna keep showing up and trying to solve this crisis and you solve enough of them and you say, wow, we can figure, we will figure it out. I don't know how, but we will get up every morning together and figure it.

Um, [01:21:00] so there was, there was never a moment of, of despair where I had to say, you know, am I crazy here? Like, should I be abandoning ship? And I mean, we got, we got in some serious tight spots, you know, four or five of them over the years with some litigation and, and with overinvesting in, during boom, uh, mm-hmm, , you know, we got $6 million in debt and we couldn't pay, um, all of these TV stations.

And, but we had a re relationship with them that we said, look, we will absolutely pay you. It just won't be on time. And they trusted us cuz we had a 10 year relationship with these stations. Mm-hmm um, but it was it's all just, and, and Hey, sometimes the business tanks, it, you know, the marketplace shuts you down or a competitor tramples over you and you just, uh, It's information to start again some other

[01:21:59] CK: way.[01:22:00]

Mm. I love that. That's a very, very Zen, very taoist, uh, philosophy, just trusting the flow. Um, now that's a beautiful thing to, to hear. I mean, part of the things that we talk about here in, on noble warrior a lot is, is, um, you know, plant medicine. And it allows the, the dissipation of these illusions, the limiting beliefs that we have ourselves.

And hence why I was asking the question, because, you know, when we hear people talk about their ups and downs of their business or relationship or personal health or whatever, the thing is, it's, you know, we always are met with when, when our character is being tested. So hence that question. Of how are you able to continue to choose the right path, even though you were seriously tested by the circumstances or certain things like that?

Well, [01:23:00]

[01:23:01] Fred: in business, you eventually figure out there's no such thing as making the right decision or be thinking about it long enough to always make the right decision Uhhuh you decide and make the decision work mm-hmm . And sometimes it doesn't, but most, but it's most, there's no way that you're gonna guarantee success.

Mm-hmm you have to try, you gotta step up. You gotta let the door lock behind you. You gotta burn the boats in the Harbor, whatever metaphor you want. You gotta jump off the high board, whatever it is, and hope there's water in the pool and FLA your arms on the way down. Uh that's it's the, the beauty of life is risk.

[01:23:40] CK: Mm. Say more about that. That's uh, that's that's beautifully said, say more about that.

[01:23:45] Fred: We pursue comfort as a goal, whereas. It's comfort is where you restore yourself. It's like going to sleep at night. So you wake up energized and can go through your day. Comfort is not the [01:24:00] end, the, the goal, it's a, it's a, it's a place it's a launching pad for going out and taking risk and chasing your dreams.

However, and they don't have to be big dreams. You could just say, my dream is to be the best parent, the best friend, you know, the best speaker. You, you know, the best crossing guard, whatever the heck it is. You, you know, you, as, as long as you are doing everything you can to be your best there. There's gonna.

Risk in that there's gonna be frustration in that. Um, and, but all of life is, you know, it's just getting to the point and saying, this is life. Life is polarity. Life is good and bad, and I can appreciate the great stuff, cuz some incredibly shitty things have happened to me if it was, if, if I was comfortable all the time, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know any joy mm-hmm I would just know safety mm-hmm and, and what happens is [01:25:00] in, in almost everyone's life is that they discover that whatever security and safety they created is an illusion mm-hmm something will dissipate it at some point and we're all gonna die.

mm-hmm you know, and we don't know when this is, you know, I, oh, I, this is, this is what I try to tell people more than anything. It's hard to tell young people cuz they feel like they're gonna live forever. But I, I, I say like, you know, We're all in this game of life, but we don't know how long the coach is gonna let us play.

Mm-hmm so play full out, you know, every day and, and use comfort as a place to restore yourself. Not to say, I just want to be comfortable and safe all the time because the, the real joy comes from challenging yourself, pushing yourself, discovering things, rolling with things, rolling with the bad to discover what the good is on the other [01:26:00] side.

Mm. Even if I, I, a tiny example of this, but it, it just happened to me. Um, I got delayed on a connecting flight and thunderstorms and everything. They, they decided to cancel the flight. And I had to spend the night in Washington, DC instead of going to Nashville where I was supposed to be going. And they couldn't get me out till five.

O'clock the next day. And I, I was like, this is ridiculous. I'm missing the whole first day of this seminar that I paid dearly for. And I ended up, you know, working on a whole bunch of stuff for the workshop in my hotel, and then went out to Starbucks. So this really interesting woman just walked over and said hi to her.

Just told her how, you know, great and summary she looked or something like that. 45 minutes later, I finally leave after this conversation, I am so grateful that [01:27:00] American airlines canceled my flight, cuz it was worth it to meet her. She was just an amazing person and we had an amazing conversation. So instead of saying, my life sucks, American airline sucks.

I miss this. And it's like, what's, what's here to discover how do I put myself in a new risky situation to see what I can discover. Yeah. That's where the joy in life comes from.

[01:27:27] CK: I, I so appreciate that story. Thank you so much. I mean, I'm, I literally put myself in situations to have serendipitous moments like that is engineer serendipity, right?

Things like burning man or plant medicine, ceremonies and things like that. Yep. Uh, you're a burner too. No, if I recall correctly,

[01:27:46] Fred: no, I have never been, I haven't never, never been

[01:27:48] CK: that's.

[01:27:48] Fred: Oh my gosh. I know it's a, it's a like, it's it always, you will love it wrong. Oh, I know. I know. It's just, you will love it.

We have dental conventions at exactly the same time. It's ridiculous.

[01:27:59] CK: Just [01:28:00] luckily you no longer in the dental industry anymore. I can do what I want. You can do what you want. It is happening. Um, well, we can take it offline, but yeah. so, so, okay. Let's talk about being bold on the internet, cuz you went from direct marketing direct response, right?

100 dentist to now building a personal brand. As a, as a executive coach is an author. Uh, we can use the internet to be bold. So what are some of the ways that we can be bolder on the internet? Because you know, case in point, some people really speak their mind and create polarized reactions and boom.

They went viral. Um, so there are opportunities to receive attention on the internet there. So what are some of the ways that we can be more bold to be ourselves and also attract the kind of the right tribe, the audience that resonates with who we really are. Any suggestions on being bold on the internet, [01:29:00]

[01:29:01] Fred: you have to get comfortable talking to camera.

A lot of people that that's really hard for them to make a video. There's other people that it's really easy. And obviously they become big influencers with just showing people how to put on makeup or something like that. But. More and more, that video is becoming the medium that everybody pays attention to.

So you're gonna have to figure out how you can express yourself, talking to a camera and you're gonna suck at it. Okay. You're you're, you're gonna put out stuff or you're gonna, but you're gonna think, well, this might work out well, or I, I keep trying it and it's nothing I ever want to put out, but work at it every day, but we didn't mention the E in the pride method, which is every everyday action.

Mm-hmm every day action. If you, if something's important to you to [01:30:00] achieve work on it every day, get to it every day. I don't want to belabor this point too much, but this is a life skill. If it matters, get to it. If you love your wife. Do something charming, romantic, complimentary every day. If, if, if you wanna get good at piano, play five minutes every day, learn a language five minutes every day, it will aggregate.

And your brain says, I guess we're gonna do this. And you won't have, you won't need the willpower to start it. You won't have to tap that, cuz you're just gonna do it. But your boldness muscle will build when you get to it every day do make a bold action every day. Um, and it relates to what we were just talking about.

So, uh, because what you do every day matters,

[01:30:52] CK: I love it. What's what's what's your new, bold, super bold habit that you're doing these days.[01:31:00]

[01:31:02] Fred: it is, um, it, it, you know, it relates directly to this. It is in building my personal brand. Uh, I am trying to do at least one TikTok a day. Um, but ideally three and wow, nobody's gonna nobody's following it. Nobody's looking at it. Nobody cares, but it's where the puck is going. Mm-hmm and I want to be, instead of being behind it and trying to do Facebook now, where people are abandoning it by the millions is like, how, how do I get good at this medium mm-hmm and understand how the, that medium is evolving, because it's constantly all of these mediums evolve.

And now I'm saying the word mediums, which is not correct. It makes it crazy media, media mediums. Are those people with the funny hats that can I gotcha. [01:32:00] but that, so that's, that's what I'm doing. As I'm telling people, you're gonna get good at video, I've done tons of video courses and things like that and podcasts and, and webinars, but really short stuff.

Mm-hmm, , it's a, it's a new skill for me.

[01:32:18] CK: Short form video. Yep. Yeah. That's that's uh, that's, that's where you get trained on TikTok,

[01:32:24] Fred: but if you have to do it every day, then you say what happens is in the back of your mind, you're working on it. Mm-hmm so you, you, you discover something in the course of the day, cuz your brain says, I guess we gotta do this today.

So something pops up if you do it, when you, you say I'm only I'm gonna do a video. When I think of a really good one, you know what you'll do like three a year mm-hmm . But if you gotta do one every day, you'll do 360 and 10 of them will be interesting mm-hmm but next year 50 of them will be interesting.

And the year [01:33:00] after a hundred.

[01:33:01] CK: Mm. So you're, you're prepared to devote this a video a day for five years. Yep.

[01:33:10] Fred: Wow. That's yeah. Who or, and by who knows if five years is too long, it'll be TikTok could be gone by then, you know? Yeah.

[01:33:17] CK: But nonetheless, you're honing your skill to tell shortform stories, right?

Yep. Um, Hey, for those that are eager to get Fred's book, you go to or slash capital S super bold genie genius, super bold. That's where you can get directly linked to his book. Fred is there before I acknowledge you to close off, is there any last word, any last question, any last topic that I hadn't asked you that you really wanted to say to our people.

[01:33:53] Fred: I always like to end with the thought that the only person you need permission from to have the life [01:34:00] you want is you, the only person you need permission from to have the most exciting adventurous pain filled love, filled, challenging, satisfying life. The only person you need permission from is you don't wait for somebody else to give your permission.

[01:34:20] CK: Mm. Wise words. Hey, Fred. Um, I didn't say this in the very beginning, but I actually read your everything is marketing book. Oh wow. And I, I looked at one, a hundred dentist as a model when I was thinking about my first business, that business didn't go anywhere because wow. You know, the internet happened.

All these things, the cost beliefs were too high, but 100 dentist. Model for me to look at. So I actually am familiar with your work and it's so cool to talk to you after, was it 10 years or, yeah. So when I was studying that, so, and thank you for your [01:35:00] sincerity or your earnestness to really make a difference in people so that they can be more bold and make that transformation from being someone who is socially anxious to someone who is Uber confident, super bold.

Yes. And, and really being out there and creating the life that they deserve. So thank you so much for being here on Nobel warrior.

[01:35:22] Fred: Thanks for having me CK.

[01:35:24] CK: Beautiful

Fred JoyalProfile Photo

Fred Joyal

Author, speaker and executive coach

Fred Joyal is an author, speaker, entrepreneur, and business advisor. He co-founded the most successful dentist referral service in the country, 1-800-DENTIST. He has previously written two books on marketing, has dabbled in standup and improv comedy, acted in bad movies and excellent TV commercials. His latest book, Superbold: from Under-confident to Charismatic in 90 days, is an Amazon and Wall Street Journal bestseller. He once beat Sir Richard Branson in chess and was also a question on Jeopardy. He is an avid cyclist, a below-average tennis player and an even worse golfer.